Gaza Versus Israel (and the rest of the arab world) for dummies

Originally posted by GeneralMishka

Originally posted by cody599

Originally posted by GeneralMishka
A very simple propaganda piece aimed at an uninformed audience, which is an abundant one in the USA. Just like the conflict itself, its a time proven distortion of facts, points of view and history. It preys on the weak foundation of knowledge Americans have about the conflict to manipulate an unrealistic contemporary pt of view

But can you dispute the historical facts presented ?

I dispute his intention on how his selected 'facts' are understood by his audience

Pushing that junk here demonstrates that you have desire for understanding the conflict, rather you desire just to manipulate a gullible audience to look the other way while war crimes are committed.

Over 750 rockets fired at innocent civilians isn't a war crime ?
Pushing historical fact is junk
What you been smoking ?

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by GeneralMishka

 

It preys on the weak foundation of knowledge Americans have about the conflict to manipulate an unrealistic contemporary pt of view

Unrealistic?

I would love to know what your "realistic" point of view is.

Why don't you enlighten us and tell us what this conflict is all about.

The truth is, Hamas started shooting rockets into Israel because Abbas went before the General Assembly to make the Palestinians an "observer" at the U.N. That vote comes due on November 29th. Once they become an observer, they are one step closer to creating a Palestinian state. The problem is, once a Palestinian state is created, they'll be forced to recognize Israel as a Jewish state and the extremists (such as Hamas and the leaders of Iran) won't have it. Not to mention the fact that the extremists are totally against any kinds of NEGOTIATIONS regarding the land. They believe that land should be taken by resistance and not negotiations.

The real conflict is between the moderate and extremist Muslims, just like it's always been, unfortunately, Israel is caught up in the middle of it.

Do some research.

edit on 18-11-2012 by Deetermined because: (no reason given)

Hamas only exists because the Israelis created9during Golda Meirs time) an enemy that they wouldnt have to give a State to. Israelis are trading blood of their countrymen so they can expand to their desired borders

Both Hamas and the Zionists need each other to survive

reply to post by GeneralMishka

I dispute his intention on how his selected 'facts' are understood by his audience.

Pushing that junk here demonstrates that you have desire for understanding the conflict, rather you desire just to manipulate a gullible audience to look the other way while war crimes are committed.

That's the best dispute you've got?

Originally posted by GeneralMishka

Originally posted by cody599

Originally posted by GeneralMishka
A very simple propaganda piece aimed at an uninformed audience, which is an abundant one in the USA. Just like the conflict itself, its a time proven distortion of facts, points of view and history. It preys on the weak foundation of knowledge Americans have about the conflict to manipulate an unrealistic contemporary pt of view

But can you dispute the historical facts presented ?

I dispute his intention on how his selected 'facts' are understood by his audience

Pushing that junk here demonstrates that you have desire for understanding the conflict, rather you desire just to manipulate a gullible audience to look the other way while war crimes are committed.

I guess that means NO. You cannot dispute the facts he enumerated.

reply to post by GeneralMishka

Hamas only exists because the Israelis created (during Golda Meirs time) an enemy that they wouldnt have to give a State to.

Israelis are trading blood of their countrymen so they can expand to their desired borders Both Hamas and the Zionists need each other to survive

Where do you people get this information? You're the third person I've seen try to say that Israel created Hamas, yet not one of you has shown me a link showing where you get this kind of information.

Hamas is an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood, just like Al Qaeda. The Muslim Brotherhood started in Egypt in 1928. All you have to do is read Hamas' Charter dated 1988 to know where they came from and what they stand for.

History shows Israel will kill 3 palestinian civilians for every one Israeli

They are both war criminals

reply to post by GeneralMishka

You are aware that Israel gave back the sinai ? That';s a pretty bad way of expanding borders. Are you also aware that Israel included Gaza in the deal and Egypt didnt' want it ?

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by GeneralMishka

 

Hamas only exists because the Israelis created (during Golda Meirs time) an enemy that they wouldnt have to give a State to.

Israelis are trading blood of their countrymen so they can expand to their desired borders Both Hamas and the Zionists need each other to survive

Use Google, a mind is a terrible thing to waste

www.globalresearch.ca...

Where do you people get this information? You're the third person I've seen try to say that Israel created Hamas, yet not one of you has shown me a link showing where you get this kind of information.

Hamas is an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood, just like Al Qaeda. The Muslim Brotherhood started in Egypt in 1928. All you have to do is read Hamas' Charter dated 1988 to know where they came from and what they stand for.

Use google, a mind is a terrible thing to waste

www.globalresearch.ca...

reply to post by Exitt


Gaza isn't occupied it was given independence and a free reign to govern itself. This is the way they chose to govern. Would your people have done the same ? I doubt it I think they would have used that independance to try and prosper peacefully. The choice is easy, stop firing rockets, announce that you are stopping, sit back and shock horror enjoy peace.

reply to post by cody599


Why does that have to include things like stealing olive groves from Palestinian's that have had them in their families for over a hundred years?

Restricting access to water springs that they have been using long before The Balfour Declaration.

Could you please answer this question that I have never been able to find an answer for myself:

Why did Israel continue to steal land as you can see here:



There were treaties made where Israel agreed to stop stealing land (or even often refused to stop steal more land) and some made where Israel agreed to stop building the (prison) wall. Some of these were hampered by Palestinian Terrorists (not working for any Palestinian government groups) but more often than not the stealing of land, the violent, antagonistic occupation and the wall building did not stop.

If a group of people stated stealing my families land splitting my country and family down the middle restricted access to food and medicine, stopped us from exporting goods to and hampered the development of my country you would most probably have to call me a terrorist as I would not take it lying down.

Although I do not agree with the blind targeting of civilians I can understand the struggle for freedom and I can see the great imbalance of numbers of innocent lives (including many children, the baby of a BBC reporter, elderly and even a pregnant woman over the last few days) lost between the two sides.


Or how about shooting a young unarmed girl dead? As my friend who was an aid worker in Palestine saw happen right in front of him as the 8 yr old girl who's parents were killed tried to give him a hug whilst he was being searched at gunpoint, she saw his hands in the air as she was walking down an alleyway but did not see the soldiers so ran towards him.

reply to post by cody599


They HAVE done this in the past but to no avail. They were still blocked from having free trade with other countries, they were still restricted from leaving Palestine and the Israelis still stole their land and built walls.

reply to post by GeneralMishka


At best, your link only suggests that Israel let Hamas run amok just enough to hang itself, but that in NO WAY suggests that Israel created Hamas.

Here's the truth about Yassin...

Yassin subsequently became involved with a Palestinian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood. In 1984 he and others were jailed for secretly stockpiling weapons, but in 1985 he was released as part of the Jibril Agreement. In 1987, during the First Intifada, Yassin co-founded Hamas with Abdel Aziz al-Rantissi, originally calling it the "paramilitary wing" of the Palestinian Muslim Brotherhood, and becoming its spiritual leader.

Yassin opposed the peace process between the Palestinians and the Israelis. He supported armed resistance against Israel, and was very outspoken in his views. He asserted that Palestine is an Islamic land "consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgment Day" and that no Arab leader had the right to give up any part of this territory. Yassin's rhetoric did not distinguish between Israelis and Jews, at one point stating that "Reconciliation with the Jews is a crime." Yassin's inflammatory rhetoric was often scrutinized in the news media.[24] On one occasion, he opined that Israel "must disappear from the map". Yassin's declaration that "We chose this road, and will end with martyrdom or victory" later became an oft repeated mantra among Palestinians.

en.wikipedia.org...

I couldn't have put it better...

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by GeneralMishka

 

I couldn't have put it better...


Unrealistic?

I would love to know what your "realistic" point of view is.

Why don't you enlighten us and tell us what this conflict is all about.

The truth is, Hamas started shooting rockets into Israel because Abbas went before the General Assembly to make the Palestinians an "observer" at the U.N. That vote comes due on November 29th. Once they become an observer, they are one step closer to creating a Palestinian state. The problem is, once a Palestinian state is created, they'll be forced to recognize Israel as a Jewish state and the extremists (such as Hamas and the leaders of Iran) won't have it. Not to mention the fact that the extremists are totally against any kinds of NEGOTIATIONS regarding the land. They believe that land should be taken by resistance and not negotiations.

The real conflict is between the moderate and extremist Muslims, just like it's always been, unfortunately, Israel is caught up in the middle of it.

Do some research.

edit on 18-11-2012 by Deetermined because: (no reason given)

wikipedia? LOL


Listen to yourself, and throughout the net. Pro israeli posters are in heat. Why? They cant wait for the bully to spill more palestinian blood in a ground invasion.

You guys are disgusting

reply to post by b14warrior


I couldn't agree more, I was once lucky enough to enforce an IDF order to remove a Palistian family from an olive grove. Once I'd spoken to elder of the family and discovered it was land stolen by Israel (it was in the west bank) we had a rather lovely picnic together, and I learned shedloads of history. I have no hatred towards the Palistinian people just towards those stupid enough to fire rockets at my kids without so much as a thought for their own civilians and kids and the consequences of doing so. As I have said before if you want peace stop firing rockets, if you fire rockets be prepared to take the consequences, if you claim to be a democracy have a vote including women. I'm guessing stop and take peace would probably win. All they have to do is stop allowing hamas to rule the many and let the people decide.

reply to post by b14warrior


Or how about shooting a young unarmed girl dead? As my friend who was an aid worker in Palestine saw happen right in front of him as the 8 yr old girl who's parents were killed tried to give him a hug whilst he was being searched at gunpoint, she saw his hands in the air as she was walking down an alleyway but did not see the soldiers so ran towards him.

I remember that, the trouble with activist friends is they tend to make up stories that make them seem interesting than they really are . As I recall the unit operating there were using M16's the unfortunate child was shot by a Kalashnicov (the weapon of choice by Hamas)

Originally posted by GeneralMishka
wikipedia? LOL


Listen to yourself, and throughout the net. Pro israeli posters are in heat. Why? They cant wait for the bully to spill more palestinian blood in a ground invasion.

You guys are disgusting

The Palestinians are spilling their own blood when they start such conflicts. They know what the fallout is going to be and they don't care.

Here's a prime example. A previous poster made a comment about a BBC reporter's baby being killed. The reporter's first name is JIHAD. What does that tell you about the mindset of the people there?

Time to cut out the ignorances about jews 'stealing lands'.

IF anyone did any stealing, blame it on the corrupted Ottoman governors whom had been accepting payments from both jews and palestinians for same land holdings since the 18th century, and then greedy local administrators whom grew rich from doing the same during the British Mandate.

This is a reality best not ignored, but if ignored, lies will instead become the real realities of jews as land thiefs.

Secondly, Palestine was a British Mandate. The indigenous people were too weak to offer up any rebellion in any way, long mentally and physically incapicitated by the brutal Ottomans, unlike today where they are well fed, well organised, well armed, and have canon fodder to throw around, as well as short memories or selective amnesia of the past.

The Brits could have held on to its empire, or made heaps selling the land as the locals were weak, but the empire decided to partition it back to the locals to both muslims and jews. The rest...is history.

As for land abandoned by retreating defeated combined arab armies hell bent on conquering Israel, its land and exterminating its people back in the 60s, which became 'occupied' land as claimed be arabs, is that considered 'stealing'?

So if there's any 'stealing', it will go all the way back to even biblical times, and will get everyone branded a heretic for daring to challenge Divine Will.

Originally posted by GeneralMishka
History shows Israel will kill 3 palestinian civilians for every one Israeli

They are both war criminals

You know, smart people would learn from that. Save palestinian lives. Tell them to stop attacking Israel.

reply to post by SeekerofTruth101


When I talk about stealing I am referring to this:


Not ancient or even pre WW1 history but recent history and history that is still happening now.

Even the OP has talked of how he has seen modern thieving of Palestinian olive groves.