Ranchers, farmers brace for 'death tax' impact (Should be titled, The Death of the private farmer)

reply to post by TDawgRex


Though i agree we have an issue with how wide the separation of classes are at the moment, i really dont see where this is going to fix things. The ones they think this tax is going to go after will more than likely simply open joint Accounts with the heirs they want their wealth passed on to. By opening joint accounts nothing is technically "passed on", thus there would be nothing to tax. In the end there will always be a loophole for the wealthy and the little guy still gets screwed.

reply to post by TDawgRex


First, let me say that I don't believe that there should be an estate tax. In my opinion it is theft, plain and simple.

Now, that said; the estate tax does not kick in unless the estate is worth more than five million. The estate can also be sold to the heirs prior to death, although there is a time limit. The property can also be put in trust for the heirs, either in perpetuity or until a specified time at which the trust can either be renewed or broken and the property disposed of as the heirs see fit.

Most people who have a business or a family farm that is worth over five million have attorneys who can set up a trust for them. It is not that expensive to do, relatively speaking.

The larger problem of estate taxes come from the states who set their own estate tax rates. These are much more likely to affect those in the middle class. The state tax thresholds can be quite low; in the couple of hundred thousand range instead of five mil.

The moral of the story is due dilligence. If you have property, business, assets, talk to an estate attorney before time runs out. Better to pay a couple of thousand now than lose the estate to taxes later. No one ever said it would be easy.

Oh, and then tell your legislators that the estate tax is reprehensible and you want it gone. Don't sit and bitch, do something.

reply to post by TDawgRex


Arguing against death tax are we?
Do you think political capital should be past down from father to son?
Do you think monetary capital should be past down from father to son?
You want a fair world?

Originally posted by phyllida
Welcome to the world we Brits have to live in! We've had these taxes and more for years and it makes dying & death a nightmare! Inheritance tax, v.a.t.,death duty, gift tax (just in case you thought of giving your property to your heirs) they get you every which way. We are, apparently, the most taxed country in the world. I know of people who have been driven to near suicide when parents have died, just having to deal with the red tape and unfairness of it all. There's no compromise with the Tax Man! Oh and God forbid you should save some of your already taxed earnings, coz you'll be taxed on those too!

edit on 19-11-2012 by phyllida because: (no reason given)

Yes...but the problem(s) with a Death Tax isn't the concept itself... it's in how it's applied. How about every child/heir can inherit the first 1 million dollars/pounds tax-free and then apply a graduated scale ABOVE that? That ensures that the Peasant-Folk can still provide for their children when they pass...but it then serves to break up the consolidation of power and wealth in the aristocratic families.

Unfortunately, (at least here in the States) whenever it comes time to have a national discussion about such things we reduce the argument to an oversimplified parody of itself as to whether taxes themselves are inherently "good" or "bad" by their metaphysical natures. All Americans are well aware that the term "simple" is synonymous with the words "clear", "intelligible", "straightforward", and "uncomplicated"...but precious few us bother to remember that it can ALSO mean "ignorant", "dimwitted", "amateur", "uneducated", and "silly".

thesaurus.com...

But then again...we Americans aren't exactly the sharpest tools in the shed anymore these days, are we? Perhaps it's different across the pond. Over here we just like to have our "good guys" wear white cowboy hats and our "bad guys" to wear black cowboy hats. Sometimes I think it's truly amazing that we managed to get as far as we have.

It won't matter much if this drought continues as it has the last two years. Not one ear of corn came from my family farm during that time and it isn't looking any better for this next growing season.

It takes water to grow crops... no water no crops... no food.

You can't eat taxes.

Originally posted by hawkiye
reply to post by sligtlyskeptical

 

Life insurance sufficient to cover the estate tax is what people who plan properly use. If profits from the farm are insufficient to cover the insurance premiums then you are likely betetr off selling anyways.

Trusts are what people who properly plan use. Life insurance payouts are taxed also as part of the estate so it does no good. Trusts do not require premiums and do not die therefore are not subject to so called death theft to put it in simplified terms...

Oh I see, the lawyers are the ones who want this illegal double taxation scheme put back into place. I'll bet they benefit handsomely from all those extra clients who are now forced to form trusts. I wonder how much they make per family?

You all need to fact check before you guys post disinfo!
There is alot of disinfo being spewed around because of the elections!
So i would suggest not to get too worked up over any of this!
From what i've read on fact check .org it seems the estate tax is still in the works as to whether it will
be 45% tax and a 3.5 million dollar exemption or a 35% tax and a 5 million dollar exemption and double the exemptions for married couples! in my opinion this is still way to high! In my opinion the estate tax should only be able to be used on monies once in a lifetime and only at a rate of 15%!
by the way the estate tax will only be 55% if there is no new legislation and with all the wealthy campaign donars i doubt there is any chance of this happening!
To read this for yourselves see: factcheck.org...

reply to post by nosacrificenofreedom


Actually, unless steps are taken there will be taxes enacted on any estate above 1m. The Democrats are pushing for taxation (even though it is at higher levels and a lower rate). I think the point here is that if you spend your life paying property taxes you shouldn't get hit again when you die. It just shows yet again that there is no such thing as property ownership. You are just renting the land from the govt. Stop paying your taxes and see who owns your property. And before people jump in saying that 3.5m or 5m should get taxed because they are rich and can afford to pay more, estate value tied up in land doesn't mean wealth. My family has a tree farm which requires a huge amount of land. The land value hasn't appreciated in 15 years and the market for lumber has declined steadily over that time. As mentioned earlier, the real people this law is trying to impact will avoid the taxes anyway.

Originally posted by Summerian
reply to post by TDawgRex

 

Arguing against death tax are we?
Do you think political capital should be past down from father to son?
Do you think monetary capital should be past down from father to son?
You want a fair world?

I want a world where honest competition is rewarded.

And sitting on your butt is not. (Not sayin' that you are doing that by the way)

To me, the death tax is the highest level of legalized corruption.

The best preparation for family farms and ranches is to take out Life Insurance on the older owner so that the insurance will be sufficient to pay the estate tax upon death so the farm or ranch will not have to be sold to pay the "death tax" (estate tax).

Originally posted by nosacrificenofreedom
You all need to fact check before you guys post disinfo!
In my opinion the estate tax should only be able to be used on monies once in a lifetime and only at a rate of 15%!

This would be fair in my opinion. Someone who is struggling, yet smart would be able to survive this.

Those who are not smart would not. Farmers usually raise smart kids, teaching them the ropes at an early age.

The Tech geeks who lavish upon their kids...to be truthful, I have no pity for them if they didn't do the same as the farmers.

Born into a generational tradition has a tendancy to make the family wealthier...usually.

Born with a silver spoon, usually makes for a poorer generation within that family.

Ya have to work for what ya have.

reply to post by CosmicCitizen


Have you looked at the rates of Life Insurance lately? What you say has also already been addressed here.

It's not enough.

Originally posted by MsAphrodite

Originally posted by hawkiye
reply to post by sligtlyskeptical

 

Life insurance sufficient to cover the estate tax is what people who plan properly use. If profits from the farm are insufficient to cover the insurance premiums then you are likely betetr off selling anyways.

Trusts are what people who properly plan use. Life insurance payouts are taxed also as part of the estate so it does no good. Trusts do not require premiums and do not die therefore are not subject to so called death theft to put it in simplified terms...

Oh I see, the lawyers are the ones who want this illegal double taxation scheme put back into place. I'll bet they benefit handsomely from all those extra clients who are now forced to form trusts. I wonder how much they make per family?

Jesus christ people... Sigh! Why don't you educate yourselves before making ignorant comments. You don't need a lawyer to create a proper trust. In fact I recommend not using one and learn to do it yourself, however even if you use one they are not much different then having a will however they are much more beneficial then a will in keeping government paws off your family estate.

We still have people claiming just get life insurance yeah pay premiums for 30 40 or more years to protect your assets ... Oh wait the the gov thefts those payouts as income also... Sigh...

But I digress in some fools minds It's better to lose hundreds of thousands in assets and the family farm then to spend $500 or even a 1000-2000 for a trust to protect all those assets from government theftation... Sigh!

reply to post by oper8zhin


Your understanding of the two parties core is laughable.

THE DIFFERENCE
Right Wing / Conservative / Republican = Valuing Freedom at the expense of Equality
Left Wing / Liberal / Democrat = Valuing Equality at the expense of Freedom.

SUMMARY
Both Equality and Freedom are important in our culture, both are needed, both have value. If any individual mind values one to the point where it dominates the other, that mind is unbalanced.

Neither side can govern successfully, as both sides are unsound in thinking. Only when a culture freely chooses (freedom) to sacrifice self for others (agape; resulting in equality/proserity for all) do both freedom and equality co-exist in perfection; that government has never existed and will never exist as long as the carnal mind remains the creator of mankinds law.

"thy Kindom (Government) come...."

God Bless,

Originally posted by ElohimJD
reply to post by oper8zhin

 

Your understanding of the two parties core is laughable.

THE DIFFERENCE
Right Wing / Conservative / Republican = Valuing Freedom at the expense of Equality
Left Wing / Liberal / Democrat = Valuing Equality at the expense of Freedom.

Not to derail the thread with a sidebar but I am curious how you see the republican platform as not placing value on the principle of equality. I'd say insisting that people earn their own way without consideration to their race or gender but rather on their own enterprise is most decidedly equal treatment under the law.

To even consider such things in promotions, hireling and or school admissions and giving certain categories of people special preferred status under the law creates and reinforces division and causes resentment from those who earn such things on their own merit. To be the beneficiary of such treatment cheapens your own sense of self worth.

reply to post by TDawgRex


In the 1840's the United states government wanted to tax the private farmer here in the south. The farmers said no. Slavery was invented. Yeah we worked the hell out of black people but we also gave them food shelter land to hunt and fish on... There were employees who stole or started fights or came on to their wives or daughters. They were punished accordingly as a way to say hey, you dont want to do that. That riled up the south enough for them to want to fight. So know you have farmers rising up and defending their god given right to liberty. Liberty in essence is the souls right to breath. Seeing what the government was doing and saying to get the rest of the country to shun them they banned together as the only show of force that they had. In our constitution, made in February of 1861 we wrote a constitution absolving us from the tyranny of the United States Government. And in that constitution we declared with emphasis that slavery was illegal. Still the United states government declared war upon a nation whose only goal was financial independence and Independence to grow food without paying taxes for it. While the north spreading the lie of slavery they gained a large troop. With the south defending their land and reputation banded together. After the civil war. The first governor of the re-instated states of America was the Tennessee governor A YANKEE. As a way to stire the pot and get people actually believing that the south dont like blacks, This governor was given the task directly from the President to disenfranchise the white people in power and enfranchise black people. The people who lost their jobs of power during the us governments magic trick organized and hung the black people who stole their jobs and where shunned with the usual political lie to smear americans. And that is how the KKK was formed. They banned together with nooses and hung the black guys who stole their lives. And multiple attacks were attempted on the governor for this. The second governor a yankee. Third governor of the post civil war. Yankee. Each given tasks to start racial friction and hatred as a cover up for why they really wanted to become independent from the united states.

Originally posted by oper8zhin
There is something that I just thought about and wanted to share. I have spent many years living in a VERY [color=dodgerblue]BLUE state. I now have spent many years living in a VERY RED state. I gotta tell you, that there were MANY MANY successful farmers doing very well in the BLUE state that I used to live. In the RED state that I live now, these farmers that I know have either SOLD OFF all their land and tractors/equipment or are living paycheck to paycheck with all their children chipping in to pay.

The farmers up in the Blue state are STILL doing very well. They are not profiting AS WELL in the last few years, but they are STILL making excellent profits and enjoying a GREAT LIVING as I keep in touch with them for the line of work that I do. Now I used to be fairly Conservative until SEEING FIRST HAND THESE TWO IDEOLOGIES IN PLAY!!!!

I have first hand experience living in both "UTOPIAS" and the Conservative thinking only benefits the SUPER WEALTHY. PERIOD!! Their ideology is meant to make you think it is right for you if you give it your all, and give it your all 100% of the time, but it BURIES you soon enough and then KICKS you when you are DOWN. 100% HONEST I have SEEN both "UTOPIAS" and that is why I hate the Conservative ideology. The ideology that I at one time had preferred UNTIL I SEEN BOTH IN ACTION for several years first-hand!!

Conservatives do NOT represent the working class, period!!!!! NO. NOPE, NO WAY, NOT EVEN CLOSE!!!

edit on 17-11-2012 by oper8zhin because: (no reason given)

edit on Sat Nov 17 2012 by DontTreadOnMe because: Reaffirming Our Desire For Productive Political Debate (REVISED)

oper8zhin- As an aside and an advisement to you, your frequent use of capitalized words and excessive and unneeded punctuation is annoying. I'd respect you more and take you more seriously if you would show some grace and restraint in your posts. Expect to move me (if at all) with your ideas, not your unnecessary showmanship.

If a family can build wealth (or capital you might call it) from generation to generation, they may gain strength over time. A death tax cuts this process short and delivers wealth back into the hands of a tyrannical, wasteful government. These growing family "empires" over time could provide serious competition to the entrenched and lazy institutions and renew and invigorate our society. My idea is a little ethereal and I hope I was able to express it in a way that makes sense to all of you.