Why the hatred for the Israelis?, page 24

reply to post by undo

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That is not what the poster I responded to was saying at all. If he had, I wouldnt have had to respond in the way I did.

Re-read the post for further clarification.

Originally posted by TrueBrit
reply to post by HabiruThorstein

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I do not think it is acceptable to link Judaism with Israel in the same way you have. For a start, it is not fundamentally accurate to say that Israels government, speaks for, or acts in accordance with the wishes and beliefs of all persons of the Jewish faith. Israels government are regularly petitioned to stop various of thier behaviors, by Jewish groups, and collections of individuals.

Many of the holocaust survivor groups are sickened by the behavior of the Israeli government over some matters, including but not limited to thier abuse of Palestinians, and thier constant and illegal expansion of thier territory.

Personally speaking, I have nothing but love for the Jews as a religion, and as a people. But the Israeli leadership does not speak for a people, nor does it speak for a religion. It speaks for the same thing any government speaks for, and that is itself, and the very powerful men who run it.

Me myself, I am a Christian. But Rome does not speak for me, and nor does any centre of power. I speak for me, and there is nought between me and my God. And yet people assume that because I am a believer in Christ, that I must be indoctrinated into a particular POLITICAL belief or set thereof. This is not true, and should not be. Being of a faith does not and, should not mean that one automatically is associated with a particular political ideology. Faith and politics are only linked by those who wish to spread hate, from within a faith, or from outside it.

This lever cannot be applied to people who have both faith and wisdom. Your argument therefore, is utterly invalid.

If you're gullible enough to think that there's no anti-Semites out there who use Israel bashing as proxy outlet for venting anti-Semitic attitide, I've got some serious land deals for you I'd like to discuss. My point is 100% valid. I don't care if you're Christian, Zoroastrian, Taoist or New Age Pagan, anti-Semitism is alive and well and a goodly number of those who hate Jews simply for being Jewish are chronic Israel bashers. Nothing you wrote can change that.

I never said anywhere that Israel's government was infallible or beyond reproach, so your inventing a straw man there, by the way. Your bit about being Christian and not linked to Rome is another straw man. Western Christendom covers a pretty large chunk of the world, dozens of nations are majority Christian. There's exactly 1 majority Jewish nation, and it's associated with Judeaism pretty universally regardless of whether it be secular, Reform, Orthodox Jew or what have you. To imply otherwise is disingenuous at best..

reply to post by undo

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Thank you! Someone read it right! 8>D

reply to post by undo

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Originally posted by undo
i'm pretty sure more women have been abused in the name of religion, than muslims have been abused by any other group in their history.

I'm trying to parse your sentence, and I'm not sure I'm getting it....more women have been abused than muslims have been abused? It is probably true (although there is no way of verifying it), but what bearing does that have on this topic? How is that related to me(?) looking down the barrel of extinction? I didn't realise Sweden had a declaration of independence....and I can't find any online. What does it say?

You seem to be under the impression that Islam has this monolithic "Shariah Law" thing with a bunch of rules set in stone that are fundamentally discriminatory towards women (or other groups or whatever). This isn't really true. You might be interested in this thread (although it looks at it from the view of the USA): "The Shariah Conspiracy".

And while what HabiruThorstein says is true (I'm sure that there are many who attack Israel simply as an extension of their anti-semitism), pointing out the vileness of the Israeli government isn't anti-semitic, thus just BECAUSE someone speaks ill of Israel doesn't mean they are automatically anti-semitic. A leads to B doesn't mean B leads to A.

reply to post by undo

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My mistake. Sorry!

Out of curiosity, can you link (or perhaps PM if you think it is off-topic) the video? I want to confirm if it is the one I am thinking of.

I agree that being on here can sometimes turn you all negative ....so many of my posts here seem to deal with clarifying misconceptions people have about Islam, I sometimes forget about all the good stuff it has.

Originally posted by babloyi
reply to post by undo

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My mistake. Sorry!

Out of curiosity, can you link (or perhaps PM if you think it is off-topic) the video? I want to confirm if it is the one I am thinking of.

I agree that being on here can sometimes turn you all negative ....so many of my posts here seem to deal with clarifying misconceptions people have about Islam, I sometimes forget about all the good stuff it has.

this guy. he's an atheist, btw.

that video lead to this one:


and then a whole bunch more.
thank you for talking to me about this.

reply to post by undo

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Thanks! It wasn't the video I was thinking of, but the guy (who I've seen videos of before....supposedly some sort of comedian who never seems to be funny) brings up the same points of the video I WAS thinking of (about the rapes). Suffice it to say, the statistics he gave are totally bogus (probably not his fault, he just got them off somewhere else). I've covered that topic before here on ATS:

www.abovetopsecret.com...
and www.abovetopsecret.com...

The rest of his rant seems to be along the lines of how being multicultural is somehow against swedish culture and society? Not sure how that works. He also talks about anti-semitism in Sweden, but fails to mention how the same groups that are up in arms against the muslims (neo-nazi crazy-people groups like the Swedish Defense League and the Swedish Movement for Resistance and even the Swedish Democrat political party) are also targetting the jews.

reply to post by TrueBrit

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You're not going to ever find anything written by me placing the Israeli government above criticism, quite the reverse. Yet none of what you've put forth has anything to do with refuting my original assertion which is a simple answer to the question posed at the start of thread.

"Why the hatred for Israelis?"

Now, Israeli citizenship is not restricted just to Jews, there are even Arab Knesset members. I never calimed it was homogenous. But here's a litmus test for you, ask a random someone to name a Christian nation, then ask someone to name an Islamic Nation, or a Buddhist nation. You'll get multiple answers to each. Ask someone to name a Jewish nation, there will be one and only one answer, Israel. Bashing Israel is an easy out for anti-Semites to bash away at Jews without having to admit their prejudice. Are those who consistently find fault with Israel all anti-Semitic? I've never said that, but as to whether it's a minority or a majority, I don't claim to read minds. I do know a recent White House pool reporter who had been bashing Israel for years in print finally got caught expressing her true opinions of Jews in a less formal environment. She had been couching her anti-semitism under the guise of reasonable criticism of the Israeli government for over 40 years.Some get caught, some don't. I honestly don't see what your problem is with admitting the fact that anti-Semitism finds an outlet in bashing Israel amongst other forms. It's just simply true. Doesn't mean Israel is perfect, just means that some people are going to bash Israel no matter what because they hate Jews and associate Israel with Jews. I'm not certain I can be any clearer.

Originally posted by HabiruThorstein
reply to post by TrueBrit

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You're not going to ever find anything written by me placing the Israeli government above criticism, quite the reverse. Yet none of what you've put forth has anything to do with refuting my original assertion which is a simple answer to the question posed at the start of thread.

"Why the hatred for Israelis?"

The question as asked, is not answered in anything like fullsome terms by your so called answer. In a quiz, you answer would recieve no points, and possibly loose you the Harrods hamper and bottle of Chiraz grand prize, because it is false. There is no hatred of Israelis in the context of the question being asked, and the times in which it has been posed. The hatred that people have expressed in recent times is directed solely toward the military actions, and murderous leadership of the nation, and has nothing to do with the population of the nation as a whole.

There is anti-semitism, which is hatred of Jews, based on thier religious beliefs and, when displayed amongst people of white, european extraction, is a hold over from Nazism, which, in all fairness should have been burned off the face of creation like a cancer from flesh, when it first raised its head. However, that hate is expressed not toward Israel, but toward Jews as a whole, and is therefore largely a seperate issue to the contemporary one being discussed here.

Now, Israeli citizenship is not restricted just to Jews, there are even Arab Knesset members. I never calimed it was homogenous. But here's a litmus test for you, ask a random someone to name a Christian nation, then ask someone to name an Islamic Nation, or a Buddhist nation. You'll get multiple answers to each. Ask someone to name a Jewish nation, there will be one and only one answer, Israel. Bashing Israel is an easy out for anti-Semites to bash away at Jews without having to admit their prejudice.

Yes, it probably would be an easy out for such a vile cretin, but luckily, that mindset accounts for a small minority of peoples attitudes, and is NOT responsible for the large outrage currently being poured toward Israels leadership as a direct result of thier evil behavior, and lack of concern for human lives on both thier own territory and that of thier neighbors.

Are those who consistently find fault with Israel all anti-Semitic? I've never said that, but as to whether it's a minority or a majority, I don't claim to read minds.

Let me do it for you then. There is no doubt that amongst peoples in developed nations, the vast majority of people who have trouble with Israel are not anti-semites but humanitarians. They are not terrorist supporters one and all, nor nazis and haters of that kind. They are people who see what is happening and know a crock of crap when they see one, in the vast majority.

I do know a recent White House pool reporter who had been bashing Israel for years in print finally got caught expressing her true opinions of Jews in a less formal environment. She had been couching her anti-semitism under the mantra of reasonable criticism of the Israeli government for over 40 years.Some get caught, some don't. I honestly don't see what your problem is with admitting the fact that anti-Semitism finds an outlet in bashing Israel amongst other forms. It's just simply true. Doesn't mean Israel is perfect, just means that some people are going to bash Israel no matter what because they hate Jews and associate Israel with Jews. I'm not certain I can be any clearer.

edit on 21-11-2012 by HabiruThorstein because: grammar

I have no problem admitting that there are terrible pieces of human waste out there, who have thoughts not befitting thier status as human beings that run toward the unreasoning hatred of Jews. I should know, my grandfathers fought the the Nazi scum and piled up thier carcasses in droves. I was taught as a child, by them, to identify and harrass any person behaving in such a manner, because thier nature is such that they will destroy us all if they gain power, as they attempted to before.

But it is misguided to use that as an answer to the question at hand, because this period of pointless destruction, as with other times in Israels history, causes anger which has nothing to do with religion, and everything to do with simple elements of right and wrong. Just as anti-semites need to stop hiding behind reasonable arguments, Israel must stop hiding behind the skirts of those who abuse and hate Jews, in order to deflect all argument against thier way of "defending" themselves, and its horrific effects on innocent non combatants. Even MENTIONING anti-semitism in this arena now is utterly pointless in the face of that.

reply to post by TrueBrit

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Got any studies proving it's a 'small minority'? No? Then it's all guesswork. Point of fact, if there were no anti-semities in the world, there would be less hatred of Israelis, why is it so difficult for you to admit that is a totally legitimate answer to the question?

It appears that you 'have a dog in this fight' for some reason. I don't claim to know why, as unlike you I admit it when I don't actually know something like for instance the ratio of Israeli Haters who are not Jew Haters.

0 points to you for making up fake ratios.

reply to post by HabiruThorstein

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Making up statistics?

First of all statistics come in number form, and I dont give any. What I can give you is a very simple way to check for yourself. Look at Britains parliament, the French and german parliaments, look at the parliamentary process in all of Europe, and the political situation of the US. None of those places has a majority extreme right wing racist party in control of them. Not a single one.

In nations which do have prominent, but not leading right wing psycho parties, they are still minority parties. Look at the votes. If there was a vast majority of haters, this wouldnt be the case, but it is. No numbers, but absolutely factual none the less.

Originally posted by babloyi
reply to post by undo

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Thanks! It wasn't the video I was thinking of, but the guy (who I've seen videos of before....supposedly some sort of comedian who never seems to be funny) brings up the same points of the video I WAS thinking of (about the rapes). Suffice it to say, the statistics he gave are totally bogus (probably not his fault, he just got them off somewhere else). I've covered that topic before here on ATS:

www.abovetopsecret.com...
and www.abovetopsecret.com...

The rest of his rant seems to be along the lines of how being multicultural is somehow against swedish culture and society? Not sure how that works. He also talks about anti-semitism in Sweden, but fails to mention how the same groups that are up in arms against the muslims (neo-nazi crazy-people groups like the Swedish Defense League and the Swedish Movement for Resistance and even the Swedish Democrat political party) are also targetting the jews.

edit on 21-11-2012 by babloyi because: (no reason given)

okay, off to read your links

Originally posted by TrueBrit
reply to post by HabiruThorstein

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Making up statistics?

First of all statistics come in number form, and I dont give any. What I can give you is a very simple way to check for yourself. Look at Britains parliament, the French and german parliaments, look at the parliamentary process in all of Europe, and the political situation of the US. None of those places has a majority extreme right wing racist party in control of them. Not a single one.

In nations which do have prominent, but not leading right wing psycho parties, they are still minority parties. Look at the votes. If there was a vast majority of haters, this wouldnt be the case, but it is. No numbers, but absolutely factual none the less.

right wing extremists??? trouble staying on topic much? what the heck does that have to do with anything? i guess in your view somehow the left is immune to bigotry? I gotta go with thorstein on this. i know bigots IRL and the ones that hate jews trash israel at any and all turns-if israel put an end to world hunger and developed cold fusion and gave away the patents for free they'd still hate israel. jew haters come from all over the economic ideology spectrum and they aren't some obscure tiny little minority. and c'mon seriously europe has certainly done nothing in recent or less than recent history to convince this reader of it's lack of anti-semitism.

in short, +1 to the fact that anti-semitism plays a big role in hating on israel.

reply to post by Snoil

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It cannot play a big role in anything at all, because it is not a veiwpoint held in majority. It can add PERHAPS a percent or two to the complaints currently leveled at Israel, but that means precisely nothing in circumstances such as those which prevail right now.

It is the behavior of Israel toward innocent civilians which causes people who are NOT race haters to be angry with Israel, and of those (the relavent demographic amongst those who have an issue with Israels behavior) it is not the PEOPLE of Israel they have a problem with but its government.

That is the thing to take away from the whole discussion, not wether or not anti-semitism exists, or wether it gets in on the general well of fury or not. Its a drop in an ocean and nothing more, and if we have any sense, it will never be anything else because that bigotry will be crushed and gutted and left to rot.

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