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Is Religion Designed To Hold Us Back?

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posted on Nov, 17 2012 @ 10:18 PM
reply to post by Grimpachi

Religion is a complete waste of time of humans time on earth. Its all hinges on the human hope. Hope has no power to change anything. Religion is a rack to hang human race out to dry.

posted on Nov, 17 2012 @ 10:28 PM
reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli

So are you saying you do not believe that science and or knowledge has not been held back by religion? Because it certainly seems that way. Human cloning doesn’t count in your opinion because they say they are doing it somewhere else or does it not count because you see no benefit in it? You do not see a problem or conflict of interest with the congressman on the science board? You see no problem with burning libraries or destroying knowledge? You said yourself it burned four times. You must know Alexandria has not been the only library. You do not seem like you are ignorant about what I am saying and I have an idea you could even offer up a few examples yourself.

It seems like you want to squabble instead of discuss and I see a pattern emerging of you setting the goalpost further with each reply.

I tell you what I will get together a list of websites for you an U2U them to you since that is all you seem to be interested in (examples of religion holding back humanity) That way this thread can stay open to discussion instead of bickering.

Besides I think I am getting of topic here because my original OP is about religion holding us back and I didn’t specifically mean science but that has been one facet. So I will send you a U2U soon.

edit on 17-11-2012 by Grimpachi because: add

posted on Nov, 17 2012 @ 10:37 PM

Originally posted by AthlonSavage
reply to post by Grimpachi

Religion is a complete waste of time of humans time on earth. Its all hinges on the human hope. Hope has no power to change anything. Religion is a rack to hang human race out to dry.

Hope can't physically change things. But hope is what pushes people to do things.
A man hoping for a bright future for his child leads him to find a better job.
People hoping for a decent neighborhood to live in help each other during a crisis.
Hope may be pointless on a physical plane, but is still has the power to move mountains if the people call for it lol

posted on Nov, 17 2012 @ 10:56 PM
reply to post by zroth

Your circular logic annoys me and has garnered you some stars from artificially retarded individuals.

posted on Nov, 17 2012 @ 11:18 PM
It is another layer of deception. I have navigated deep into spirituality and found the truth. Religion is great to teach ignorant a good lesson. Just like other negative elements in our lives it is another trap. If you don't know about it, you fall into it. when you graduate out of it you fall into another one.
if course it is holding us back. It serves no one.

posted on Nov, 17 2012 @ 11:25 PM
Religion does control and has been controlling for centuries. If you read the old testatment they were given the 10 commandments. People couldn't figure out that killing was wrong yet their god ordered them to kill.The pharisees and sadducees controlled the jews that they couldn't barely move on a certain day that Jesus and his disciples were accused of working on that day.Certian Jews still do have that day where they cant work and not do a thing to the extreme. Religion caused the dark ages. All religions have leaders that dictate to their followers that they cant have vacines or blood and masturbation leads to homosexuality and organ transplant is considered cannibalism. Religion is man made period.The difference between a religion and a cult is its size.All the big religions and some medium ones have lots of money and property were their followers are not so well off
Now spirituality is different. Who looks outside dreams (religion) who looks inside awakens (meditating,being close to nature.) Being one with everything.

posted on Nov, 17 2012 @ 11:27 PM
Monotheistic religions are. Then there are religions like Asatru that empower you.

posted on Nov, 17 2012 @ 11:36 PM
Yes, religion is designed to hold us back. And it is very hard to break free of if you are on the inside, because you are isolated and unable to communicate with anyone on the outside. In addition, there is a lot of social pressure to think the same way as everyone else, otherwise you will be punished and told it is your fault.

Resources are only handed out to followers, and those who don't follow are on their own.

The main point of all of this is probably to keep people from becoming enlightened and self-sufficient.

This, of course, is only if the religion is functioning in the wrong way and being used as a vehicle of power.
edit on 17-11-2012 by darkbake because: (no reason given)

posted on Nov, 17 2012 @ 11:45 PM
reply to post by Joneselius

Well once you get out into the world of atheists, you have some people who are not wise enough to understand how to have healthy values, and they have no guidance from religion, either - and then, from what I can tell working on a forum with other atheists, atheists don't like forming common morals, therefore it can be hard to be one, as most of your time may be spent trifling over individual value systems, and it can make one feel uncomfortable being his or herself.

In any case, I've done both, not sure what next.

posted on Nov, 18 2012 @ 12:07 AM
From where i see it, i see that the world has been manipulated by humans with the tool of religion but that does not mean religion is at fault. The person using it to hide under his acts is to blame.

posted on Nov, 18 2012 @ 01:58 AM
reply to post by Grimpachi

Dear Grimpachi,

Tough to get a reasonable discussion going, eh?

Perhaps I overstated my case on morality.

Is there morality without a deity telling you its wrong? I do not know if I am different to where my morality and principles are not mandated by a deity or not but I would like to think it just comes down to teachings.
Sure, there is morality without God. Nearly everyone has an innate sense of right and wrong. When a child takes another child's toy, there is screaming because the child knows, somehow, that it's wrong or not fair. Where does this conscience come from? People can say "evolutionary adaptation" all they like, but to say that we share because a hundred bazillion years ago it made sense to split the mastodon meat, doesn't seem like a strong argument.

What my point was on morality was not that you can't have a morality without God, but there is no reason, logically, to have any particular morality. Without a First Source giving you ultimate "shoulds," there is no way to reason logically to a "should." Without "God," or whatever one calls the First Source, you can pick any morality you want, one's as good, logically, as another.

Without the First Source, any group can say "We want "every man for himself" survivalism, that's our morality." And there is no solid ground to say no to that.

The Church believes it has clear teachings from the First Source, and offers them to whomever wants them.

Have you noticed that even with the threat of a god’s wrath people have still come up with sayings like:
Kill them all let god sort them out, God forgives but I do not,
Yes, I've noticed, and it makes me sad. I think the owners are trying to display some kind of fake "toughness" which offends me.

or even the famous may god have mercy on your soul just as they are being sentenced to death.
Believe it or not, this one does not strike me as offensive as the other examples. If the law has determined that your body is to die, what happens to your soul becomes pretty important. I hope God will have mercy on my soul.

I have done a little bit of traveling in my life and I have noticed the further removed a deity is from a culture the less we as humans act as invasive species to the environment. Generally we will live more in harmony with nature instead of conquering it with deities out of the picture.
Fascinating idea. I hadn't considered that the absence of a god leads to a cleaner environment. I don't know, offhand, why that should be. My understanding was that American Indians were "hell on wheels" when it came to the environment and dealing with their brothers from other tribes. But if you're saying that religions which tend to separate their followers from the world have less of an effect on the world, I would agree.

I tend think what has happened now in humankinds history is a situation where people have picked and chose from a books that claims they are words from God to where it has become enough to keep us in place and hold us back.
And this, I think is the central theme to your thread. As others have posted, "Hold me back from what?" I don't know about other religions, but in mine I am encouraged to increase my love for others and for God. That seems a good thing to me.

Why should people change if it is mandated from a god that we have dominion therefore we can destroy everything around us with no consequences as long as you believe your reward awaits you in the afterlife. This is where I think religions fatal flaw lay and why I believe we need to move on.
Thank you, and applause.
Very few can look into their thinking processes to find the start of their thoughts and follow them to their conclusion. Don't most, if not all, religions indicate that there is the possibility of some punishment after death? I believe that everything I do has a consequence, and not only for me, but also for those I meet. In this life and whatever comes after.

I have never claimed to be the smartest person in the world I think I am just about at average intelligence and this is a subject where I could use more IQ points.
Hey, me too. My avatar and signature prove it. You're not going to get any IQ points from me.

By the way, one more applause.
The questions of God's existence, and if He exists, what should we do about it, are the fundamental questions of life. Anyone who does not explore these until they are sure they have found the truth, are cowards, evil, or foolish. I'm glad you're looking.

With respect,

posted on Nov, 18 2012 @ 02:15 AM
reply to post by Grimpachi

No stupidity is what holds people back. Just look at the division caused by our own two party system. People will use anything to be at odds with someone, to opprose or manipulate others.

It is not exclusive to religion.

YOur prejudice against religion is part of the problem that is holding us back

posted on Nov, 18 2012 @ 03:05 AM
reply to post by Grimpachi

No its right the Urantia Book we have completed 2 expedition and found exactly what is there in the I read and see, no man could organize this. Its part of the revealing at the end. Thanks for looking. Nothing to do with Scientology sophistry without evidence.

posted on Nov, 18 2012 @ 04:06 AM
reply to post by Grimpachi

Your thoughts on religion is just like mine. I consider myself agnostic. I grew up catholic but have come to realize over the years a lot of wars, persecution, hate and government ideology all stems from their religious beliefs. I find a lot of religious teachings are down right hypocritical. People point their fingers at cults and say they're all about control, but if you really step out and examine all religions, they're doing the same thing but at a subtle level.

I also believe a God/Creator had a hand in designing our existence and the cosmos, but I feel there is another force, call it evil, who is trying to circumvent and control our human development. Whether it had a hand in creating religious doctrine, that is something we'll find out once we leave this world. I just find it extremely puzzling why the human race has never had a concrete conscious understanding of its history and its purpose in life. Instead we have to rely on belief systems (take your pick) to help settle our man made desire to make sense of our existence.

posted on Nov, 18 2012 @ 04:25 AM
reply to post by Grimpachi

When you say "people are being killed,murdered,tortured" , you must be referring to Abrahamic religions because they were always supportive of violence incase someone disapproves them or their religion.

On the other hand Eastern religions such as Jainism,Hinduism and Buddhism are much more richer and older then abrahamic religions.These religions are about spiritual growth .And most importantly they dont try to convert people of other religion.

This is what I have to say->

"Abrahamic religions" but not "religion as a whole " are the source of evil.Anybody with a thinking mind will be able to see it.

posted on Nov, 18 2012 @ 06:38 AM
I'm an agnostic skeptic. This is how I look at it, having been on both sides of the equation.

Stark, frank reality, as revealed by science and observation, and scientific theories consistent therewith, reveal reality to be quite nihilistic. People disagree with that, and that is their prerogative, but that is my impression. According to the most current research that we have to draw upon when attempting to describe reality and our place in it, everything we experience that we attribute meaning or importance to may in fact be inherently meaningless.

One possible interpretation of reality based purely upon science and scientific theory is this:

Emotions are just electrochemical interactions in the brain. Thoughts and choices are just emergent behaviors, and could be caused to come into being artificially if we had a more complete knowledge of cognition and neurology, and powerful enough hardware and software. Matter isn't matter as we traditionally conceive of it. We are stuck like flies in fly paper, in what is termed a membrane. All matter is simply disturbance and complexity in said membrane, which at the fundamental level is just quantum "foam." The universe may exist as an undefined expanse of dimensional interplay and movement, without purpose or origin necessarily.

Love, friendship, family, and everything else we value are inherently meaningless beyond evolutionary necessity, which in turn is simply a result of natural selection. Natural selection is not a magical force, but simply "how things shake out." You can witness a form of natural selection by dumping a bag of differently weighted and buoyant stones into water. Some will rise to the top, others will not. They are not alive or animate, but they undergo natural selection. Biological life as we know it, replete with the aforementioned emergent behaviors and interactions that give us the illusion of consciousness, free will, and our lives having "meaning," originated with the natural selection amid similarly inanimate substances long ago. We are "just how things shook out."

Any attempts to assign greater meaning to our existence than this, such as by acknowledging and embracing scientific knowledge but going beyond it to say that somehow being altruistic (including philosophies such as Humanism, which frequently attest atheism and science) is innately good or preferable for any reason other than "it feels good because humans' survival benefited from the development of empathy," are the cognitive mind using dissonance to reestablish the illusion of purpose and importance. There is no "greater good" because life has no meaning other than that which we attribute to it in an attempt to avoid the realization of nihilism and existential terror, as any life form without these defense mechanisms would experience. And any thoughts of "doing good" or being a "good person" are irrational unless viewed simply as the result of the biological mind's attempts to justify and preserve its importance.

All life forms of sufficient complexity have a survival instinct, because this is beneficial to their species' perpetuation, the pursuit of which only evolved through natural selection by being the most fit to survive. In short, nothing matters, and when your life ends, your consciousness and the emergent behaviors arising from the interactions of the brain that give rise to it, will also end. You will cease to exist, period.

Note that the above is not what I believe. However, it is one possible interpretation of reality. And it is one not inconsistent with the available facts. So that being the case, I think it's easy to fathom why people have all kinds of techniques, tendencies, methods, and beliefs to provide their existences meaning and structure. Whether that means some form of spirituality, imaginary friends, a personal philosophy, a pet project, a lifelong goal, or organized religion, people have a profound, and probably evolutionarily inherent, need - not just want, but need - to give their lives meaning, or to feel that their lives have been given meaning by someone or something else.

I do believe that many in organized religion prey upon this need to manipulate and to influence. Others, having been on both sides of the fence, I believe genuinely believe in their religious convictions. Others are simply following their natures.

While not religious, I often say I believe in human love. But what is love? According to science, it's a specific distribution of thoughts, electrical activity, and neurotransmitter ratios, comprising a subjective state my collective mind interprets as the emotion we call love. It has no inherent meaning, other than its evolutionary function. And yet I choose to, irrespective of logic, transcend that definition. Because that is my nature.

I think that dynamic can serve as an answer to the question of why organized religion - for all its good and ills - exists as well.

I respect everyone's beliefs. Peace.

posted on Nov, 18 2012 @ 08:21 AM

What my point was on morality was not that you can't have a morality without God, but there is no reason, logically, to have any particular morality. Without a First Source giving you ultimate "shoulds," there is no way to reason logically to a "should." Without "God," or whatever one calls the First Source, you can pick any morality you want, one's as good, logically, as another.

really? so murder would be just as good as giving gifts depending on which side your looking at it from? like if a guy dated a girl you loved it would be ok to kill him to take her because you love her right? thats nonsense. just by stating this your agreeing with the christian mindset without even knowing you are. how does one know whats good and bad without having an example of either good or bad? thats where God comes in. It was the ultimate good. the root example.

“My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust?”
― C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity
“Supposing you hear a cry for help from a man in danger. You will probably feel two desires - one a desire to give help (due to your herd instinct), the other a desire to keep out of danger (due to the instinct for self-preservation). But you will find inside you, in addition to these two impulses, a third thing which tells you that you ought to follow the impulse to help, and suppress the impulse to run away. Now this thing that judges between two instincts, that decides which should be encouraged, cannot itself be either of them. You might as well say that the sheet of music which tells you, at a given moment, to play one note on the piano and not another, is itself one of the notes on the keyboard. The Moral Law tells us the tune we have to play: our instincts are merely the keys.” ― C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity

“It seems, then, we are forced to believe in a real Right and Wrong. People may be sometimes mistaken about them, just as people sometimes get their sums wrong, but they are not a matter of mere taste and opinion any more than the multiplication table.”
― C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity

“Three hundred years ago people in England were putting witches to death. Was that what you call the 'Rule of Human Nature or Right Conduct?’ But surely the reason we do not execute witches is that we do not believe there are such things. If we did—if we really thought that there were people going about who had sold themselves to the devil and received supernatural powers from him in return and were using these powers to kill their neighbours or drive them mad or bring bad weather—surely we would all agree that if anyone deserved the death penalty, then these filthy quislings did? There is no difference of moral principle here: the difference is simply about matter of fact. It may be a great advance in knowledge not to believe in witches: there is no moral advance in not executing them when you do not think they are there. You would not call a man humane for ceasing to set mousetraps if he did so because he believed there were no mice in the house.”
― C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity

“Theology is like a map. Merely learning and thinking about the Christian doctrines, if you stop there, is less real and less exciting than the sort of thing my friend got in the desert. Doctrines are not God: they are only a kind of map. But that map is based on the experience of hundreds of people who really were in touch with God--experiences compared with which many thrills of pious feelings you and I are likely to get on our own are very elementary and very confused. And secondly, if you want to get any further you must use the map.”
― C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity

“As long as you are proud you cannot know God. A proud man is always looking down on thing and people: and, of course, as long as you are looking down you cannot see something that is above you.”
― C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity

“Most of us are not really approaching the subject [scriptures] in order to find out what Christianity says: we are approaching it [them] in the hope of finding support from Christianity for the views of our own party.”
― C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity
“If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning: just as, if there were no light in the universe and therefore no creatures with eyes, we should never know it was dark. Dark would be a word without meaning.”
― C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity

any of these quotes will maybe help explain it

posted on Nov, 18 2012 @ 08:32 AM
reply to post by Grimpachi

Of course I ask what benefit these things have as that is intrinsic to progress.

Your thoughts on religion holding people back in other ways have yet to really be addressed yet.

So do include culturally, morally, artistically?

The greatest buildings on the planet have been built by the religious. The Egyptian priests built the Giza complex and aligned it more closely to true north than any other known structure until the 18 hundreds. Religion is also responsible for some of the great pieces of artwork throughout history.

On human cloning, you accused religion as a whole as I should that while one segment may not be "advancing" a certain science another segment.

Has your man on the science panel ever been solely responsible for preventing any study or are his comments alone enough to impede the benefits of science from reaching humanity?

My point is that religion much like any other organization can be used for good or bad and that is dependent on the individuals in charge.

Science and culture not based on religion has its travesties on an equal footing, if not more so, with religion. Just look at engineered viruses and poison gases, nuclear warfare, Cambodia/Commie China/Soviet Russia's massive witch hunts against religion and massive deaths to starvation which are unparalleled in human history.

posted on Nov, 18 2012 @ 08:40 AM
reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli

The question, I think, is how religion is being used these days. Sure, in the past it has provided inspiration for lots of things we enjoy these days. However, the path it has taken has lead to all sorts of political and societal ramifications that, I think, the OP is suggesting has done more harm and good.

So is that worth the benefits?

There's a line that has been crossed here. When society is judging its members and freedoms are restricted, that's when religion is going too far.

posted on Nov, 18 2012 @ 08:52 AM

The great difficulty is to get modern audiences to realize that you are preaching Christianity solely and simply because you happen to think it true; they always suppose you are preaching it because you like it or think it good for society or something of that sort. Now a clearly maintained distinction between what the Faith actually says and what you would like it to have said or what you understand or what you personally find helpful or think probable, forces your audience to realize that you are tied to your data just as the scientist is tied by the results of the experiments; that you are not just saying what you like. This immediately helps them realize that what is being discussed is a question about objective fact — not gas about ideals and points of view.” ― C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity

“My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. Just how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust? … Thus in the very act of trying to prove that God did not exist—in other words, that the whole of reality was senseless—I found I was forced to assume that one part of reality—namely my idea of justice—was full of sense. Consequently atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning. ” ― C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity

“A proud man is always looking down on things and people; and, of course, as long as you are looking down, you cannot see something that is above you.”
― C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity

here are the biggest problems why people cant accept God. Its the pride and the never wanting to really get it. they more or less do this..

“Most of us are not really approaching the subject [scriptures] in order to find out what Christianity says: we are approaching it [them] in the hope of finding support from Christianity for the views of our own party.” ― C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity

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