Is Religion Designed To Hold Us Back?

Originally posted by Grimpachi

Originally posted by 1NEO001
Surely , you have to agree that more good has been done than bad when considering religion. Surtanly no reason to abolish it?

I think as a species we need to grow up and act our age and that means we should discard the stories we were brought up on. We can keep the lessons we learned but there is no need to hold on to superstations.

When speaking about more good being done than harm are you speaking of one religion or all religion?
When taking into account all religions at this time in the world do you think they divide or unite us?
When considering all of history with religion can you name any other force that has caused more war, devastation, and death?
Have you considered how much religion has halted progress in our history and continues to until this day?

I do not think we can abolish religion that would be forcing something on others just like religion has been forced on many throughout history. I guess I am hoping we can consciously evolve past it.

Each religion originally came from its own part of the world, different traditions and customs, I guess I was talking about all of them except satanism or Scientology . All the religions of the world probably divide us more than unite, but so does all the different languages of the world. No I can't name any other force throughout history.

What about the hope and inspiration it gives people. What I was saying before about 2000 years it has helped humanity. When dealing with loss or horrible situations religion can get people through it. Jesus stood up for what was pure and right sorta like a super hero. Religion can also get people through living under horrible conditions, because salvation will come. To create a framework of society or civilization or the human spirit. There are always going to be people killing each other over some reason it's just nature, not in their nature but circle of life. I can't believe I am one of the few here standing up for religion. Not just the thought of an afterlife or eternal life of forgiveness, joy and love. People that don't have anything else in this world have Jesus to turn to. The poor the disenfranchised the needy. I don't think we will ever evolve past the point of religion unless 10,000 down the line and we mastered space travel and everything that comes with it.

One of the reasons for religion is so we slowly change. It would be better if we hadn't invented the weapons we have. It would be better if we had not invented the technology to destroy the earth so fast. Religion is not all wrong about this. They observed that too much change too fast had consequences.

Bottom line;

BABIES ARE BEING RAPED AND MURDERED 'AS WE SPEAK'

No God 'should' or 'would' let that happen.

Is religion holding us back? YES. It's dated and ridiculous, and part of the problem of why we are such a destructive race.

If you want to believe that's great, i believe it has benefits for a lot of people.

If you want to preach and tell others they are wrong for not believing, well #### you. Live you fairy tale, but don't condemn others.

Edit: i would like to add, that was targeted towards 'fanatics' NOT believers.

Religious fanatics are the epitome of ignorance imo.

reply to post by Grimpachi


I am sorry but can you please provide a list of all the ways (documentation a must because otherwise I would be forced to have faith in you) religion is holding us back?

How do you define being held back?

Can you please explain the placebo effect for me and how chemical and/or physical stimuli has less of an effect than the mere belief of being treated?

FYI Scientology was founded by a fellow Ordo Templi Orientalis cultist to Jack Parsons whom was largely responsible for modern rocketry in America.

FYI the father of physics was an Alchemist (Newton) which is largely a regimented spiritual practice and essentially a religion of sorts.

And finally what actions are you taking to bring about the world you desire to live in?

Thanks.

reply to post by Grimpachi


It's because religion puts on a pretty good show. They claim to have the answers even if those answers are only "because it's God's plan/will".

Some people are okay with that answer. Religion fills a gap in their life because it's too hard to find the actual answer, or because it takes too long, or because they can't understand. Religion provides a security blanket for people, giving them absolution for "sins" they may have committed against their religion, which in turn allows them to continue committing those sins because they'll be absolved. It's an interesting morality escape mechanism and absolutely brilliant.

I've been religious and then spiritual, and then finally I shed that baggage and it opened my eyes to how easy it is to control people if you just act like you know what you're doing and insist that others are doing the wrong thing.

Sure, religion actually provides a service to some people, but so do prostitutes, and drug dealers, and hit-men. Service does not imply that something is good. It just fills a gap that some people have.

reply to post by charles1952


Thanks Charles I get what you’re saying I really do and it seems to go back to the issue of morality. Is there morality without a deity telling you its wrong? I do not know if I am different to where my morality and principles are not mandated by a deity or not but I would like to think it just comes down to teachings.

Have you noticed that even with the threat of a god’s wrath people have still come up with sayings like:
Kill them all let god sort them out, God forgives but I do not, or even the famous may god have mercy on your soul just as they are being sentenced to death.

I have done a little bit of traveling in my life and I have noticed the further removed a deity is from a culture the less we as humans act as invasive species to the environment. Generally we will live more in harmony with nature instead of conquering it with deities out of the picture. A good example would be those peace loving Buddhists. I am sure there have been Buddhist murderers same as we have had them but they tend to not start wars and instead worshiping a deity they dedicate themselves to learning a man’s teachings. Some have even said that in the Christian faith that Christ was a Buddhist because the teachings are so similar.

I tend think what has happened now in humankinds history is a situation where people have picked and chose from a books that claims they are words from God to where it has become enough to keep us in place and hold us back. Why should people change if it is mandated from a god that we have dominion therefore we can destroy everything around us with no consequences as long as you believe your reward awaits you in the afterlife. This is where I think religions fatal flaw lay and why I believe we need to move on.

BTW give me a year or so before coming down I should have a scuba business up and running by then. As usual it took me a little while to respond it is hard for to keep up with all the responses to this thread and sometimes I need to think about my replies and at the same time keep up with the real world. So take your time getting back it looks like I have a lot of people to respond to here. I have never claimed to be the smartest person in the world I think I am just about at average intelligence and this is a subject where I could use more IQ points.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


I am not sure we need to master the immaterial it hasn’t been accomplished yet and probably never will be regardless of what we try. Also I never said I had a problem with philosophy or think it should be left behind.

Originally posted by Grimpachi
reply to post by charles1952

 

I have done a little bit of traveling in my life and I have noticed the further removed a deity is from a culture the less we as humans act as invasive species to the environment. Generally we will live more in harmony with nature instead of conquering it with deities out of the picture. A good example would be those peace loving Buddhists. I am sure there have been Buddhist murderers same as we have had them but they tend to not start wars and instead worshiping a deity they dedicate themselves to learning a man’s teachings. Some have even said that in the Christian faith that Christ was a Buddhist because the teachings are so similar.

*cough cough Soviet Russia *cough Commie China *ehherrrmmmm

Anyone want to come pick some cherries with me?

reply to post by Rezlooper


I would like to use the jumping off a bridge analogy for this. I do not believe being in the majority on an issue is what makes it true. Also I have read through the claim that DNA was intelligently designed and in my opinion it only shows how efficient evolution is. Keep in mind the human species is still evolving just look some of the people in South America where their pigmentation or eyes are still adapting to their environments pay close attention to those who live at higher altitudes. However I am curious since you seem to side with the numbers what is your stance on climate change considering most of science and civilized world seem to agree on that subject?

reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli

I am sorry but can you please provide a list of all the ways (documentation a must because otherwise I would be forced to have faith in you) religion is holding us back?

How do you define being held back?

I will try to explain these two in one example. Listing all the ways science has been held back would take a very long time.
Like in one of my earlier posts in the U.S. just recently we have had a congressman that sits on the science board that denies……. Instead I will just repost this.

“God's word is true. I've come to understand that. All that stuff I was taught about evolution and embryology and the Big Bang Theory, all that is lies straight from the pit of Hell.

cnsnews.com...
OR

James Inhofe Says the Bible Refutes Climate Change

www.rightwingwatch.org...

Can you please explain the placebo effect for me and how chemical and/or physical stimuli has less of an effect than the mere belief of being treated?

No I cannot I am not very familiar with it but I will say I prefer antibiotics over the idea of them and the surgeries I have had were not going to heal with a placebo.

And finally what actions are you taking to bring about the world you desire to live in?

I definitely do not have all the answers on this but a good start would be casting off the deity’s and keeping the teachings.

*cough cough Soviet Russia *cough Commie China *ehherrrmmmm

Anyone want to come pick some cherries with me?

China has been deeply entrenched in deity’s through much of history at points even believing the ruling class to be Gods and Russia is a combination of faiths where many went underground they were also plagued by superstition. I also in previous posts said I do not believe in forcing people to give up religion the same way I do not condone forcing religion on others both carry consequences.

Religion is all about controlling your perception of the soul. It's about controlling your relationship to a source, a higher power. Religion is about manipulating the way you think, interact with a community and basically stay in line with a prescribed agenda of a controlling faction.

Religion, outside of oppressing spirituality has nothing to do with spirituality. Currently, we collectively are entering into an embryonic state of spiritual realization and most of us don't have a clue as to how to function.

We are immersed in ages and ages of brainwashing. Now this brainwashing is at its most sophisticated and most formulaic. The mind is now a predictable and easily manipulated squeaky toy. There is a massive cancellation of even the idea of the soul. Religion laid the groundwork for this to happen. Religion suppressed the nature of the soul. Now controlled communication is trying to make it appear as though there, "ain't no such thing."

Pay attention to your spiritual nature, look for it in others. We are now being played big time. That is why I personally believe we are in the end times; reason being as far as the Earth being a place that is conducive to spiritual growth, it is for the most part, null. We are going be nothing more than an "Etch-a-Sketch" of the gods.

Religion is a tool created by psychopaths to oppress and control your spiritual nature. It is the great disconnect from man to the creator. The last thing an oppressor wants is miracles to be as common as grass.

We have much, much to learn about spiritual issues and limited tools to perceive the truth of it all. We are in a spiritual stone age and are being subjected to charlatans, control freaks, narcissists, and egocentrics at every juncture. We live in interesting times for sure.

Find a way to find the truth of it all. The irony of it all is, if you seek the truth, the first thing you find are liars.

I know this is kind of choppy, but, that's where I'm at right now.

Ever tried to read the Urantia Book, that is where mankind will move forward, beginning at the beginning 1st Eden as discovered and verified.

www.urantia.org...

reply to post by Grimpachi


What a cop out.

Here I was hoping you would at least provide some evidence of religions actually holding us back and you provide quotes from two congressmen.

Of course you then go on to say the whole world believes in climate change but did not identify it as man-made and so are possibly aware of the current solar maximum, evidence of other planets in the solar system also increasing in temperature and may also suspect the veracity of the original climate data which has all been destroyed. Interestingly C-12 carbon has 6-protons, 6-neutrons, and 6-electrons and a tax on said element is being used to push for the creation of a global governing body which is eerily similar to a prophecy from a fairy tale written a few thousand years ago.

How do their beliefs stop space exploration, study of physics and quantum physics, chemistry, or electomagnetics? The world's population is at all time highs and due to that there are more believers in deity than ever and yet science pushes forward at an ever increasing pace. Are you trying to claim that "progress" would come faster if all these people ended their faith?

Then you go on to try and discount the two most wide-spread and famously Godless societies because in their past they had a public faith and then essentially claim that because such organizations were oppressed that the nations still count as ones with deities.

What a joke.

How about you stop postulating on what utopia you think would be created from a Godless society and actually go practice it. Leading by example is something I have found to work quite well.

As it stands you come across as whiny complainer who has no answers.

It is designed to spiritually help people and is very powerful, however some people with no heart have decided to manipulate, change and distort the spirituality of religion in order to control the masses. The unfortunate thing of it all; not everyone is open minded enough to see religion as a purely spiritual journey, a tool more or less to connect with spirituality on a higher level. Evil people have perverted it. That is why I understand the resentment to religion. I feel sadness for those manipulated in such a way, and sadness for the people pushed away from it.

But like most things I say, it is just my perspective, don't know if there is a real answer or any at all, it's just the best sense I can make of it.

reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli


Oh sorry I forgot to tell you that one of those congressman sit on the science board.

Another example would be human cloning. Will you admit dogma has impeded that science? How about instances where libraries have been destroyed because of religion? Surely you remember the Library of Alexandria sound familiar that is just one of many.

So what were you saying about how this doesn’t affect progress?

If you are being genuine in your lack of knowledge on this matter I can link you to several sites on the internet that supports this or you can just use Google yourself.

BTW have you ever heard of the concept of a self-fulfilling prophecy?

Honestly most of your questions I have already gone over through previous responses to others who posted. Have you at least read those yet? Not to be crass but you haven’t really asked anything new or hasnt already been answered at one point or another in this thread.

reply to post by sevens8


I read a little of it from your link but it reads a bit too much like Scientology for my tastes. As a work of fiction it is probably pretty good but the way it is laid out just does not seem right to me.

reply to post by Grimpachi


1.
You do realize the library of Alexandria has burned at least 4 times. The decree of Theodosus (391) resulted in the burning of the Serapeum which housed part of the Great Library but it was not known how many if any were housed there.

An earlier text by the historian Ammianus Marcellinus indicates that the library was destroyed in the time of Julius Caesar; whatever books might earlier have been housed at the Serapeum were no longer there in the last decade of the 4th century (Historia 22, 16, 12-13).

The pagan author Eunapius of Sardis witnessed the demolition, and though he detested Christians, and was a scholar, his account of the Serapeum's destruction makes no mention of any library.

What point were you trying to make here?

2.
Human Cloning? What benefit to humanity does human cloning present? Also I do not see how religion is holding human cloning back just look at the Pleidians who claim to have already cloned humans.

Or are you referring to fetal stem cells? Science has already shown that fetal stem cells do not work as well as stem cells taking from the individual whom the treatment is targeted at.

3.
On the self-fulfilling prophecy.

Ummmm what? How is it self fulfilling? I merely pointed out how interesting it is, the similarity of a mark of a beast 666 establishing a world government and the world carbon tax scheme to 'save the world'.

You have to admit that it is one hell of a coincidence and creepy.

4.

Although popular images of controversy continue to exemplify the supposed hostility of Christianity to new scientific theories, studies have shown that Christianity has often nurtured and encouraged scientific endeavour, while at other times the two have co-existed without either tension or attempts at harmonization. If Galileo and the Scopes trial come to mind as examples of conflict, they were the exceptions rather than the rule.

— Gary Ferngren, Science & Religion

too lazy to go through the volumes for you so here is a simple wiki;
en.wikipedia.org...

Today, much of the scholarship in which the conflict thesis was originally based is considered to be inaccurate. For instance, the claim that people of the Middle Ages widely believed that the Earth was flat was first propagated in the same period that originated the conflict thesis[18] and is still very common in popular culture. Modern scholars regard this claim as mistaken, as the contemporary historians of science David C. Lindberg and Ronald L. Numbers write: "there was scarcely a Christian scholar of the Middle Ages who did not acknowledge [earth's] sphericity and even know its approximate circumference."[18][19]

Other misconceptions such as: "the Church prohibited autopsies and dissections during the Middle Ages," "the rise of Christianity killed off ancient science," and "the medieval Christian church suppressed the growth of the natural sciences," are all reported by Numbers as examples of widely popular myths that still pass as historical truth, even though they are not supported by current historical research. They help maintain the popular image of "the warfare of science and religion."

You are going to have to provide some serious documented sources of religion holding back science.

Perhaps you have not actually researched any of this and are spouting popular culture instead of empirical data and historical sources.

reply to post by Grimpachi


Religion does not hold people back. We are not controlled by our faith, but rather we try to control ourselves through our faith. I am Catholic, not because I was or am brainwashed, but because after 7 years of studying, I found that I agreed with most of the teachings.

When people say they do not need a faith to tell them how to behave, they will usually add in that they are moral and decent people; but then again, how many people do you know who would say, "I am a lying, promiscuous, adulterous, who may care about the homeless and poor, but I have no time to be bothered trying to help others, because I am too concerned about myself."

Looking at the current trends, divorce rates are up, abortion rates are high, pornography and promiscuity has become more acceptable. Interestingly enough our current culture seems to believe that you can do what and who you want, when you want and how you want, and no one should be allowed to disagree with you, because it's your body and you're not hurting anyone else.. Interestingly enough, it is almost similar to the Wiccan creed, "Do thou will, but harm none" I always found that creed to be stupid, Everything we do in life affects those around us, you can't do your will and harm none, eventually people will be harmed or affected by what you do.

No, I would definitely disagree with the notion that we have outgrown the need for religion, because we are so much more superior than our ancestors

This thread reminds me of something that happened not to long ago to me.
Some Jehova witnesses came by and they caught me in a good mood. IT was blazing hot outside and they were wearing suits with business shoes on. No car with them ( atleast not one I could see near by). So I decided to be nice and atleast hear what these men had to say.
I explained to them how I'm agnostic. And to be honest, they didn't know what that really was. So I had to explain it. In the process, I told them how I believed being a decent human being doesn't revolve around my religious beliefs or basis of heaven. I did good things because it made my life and other people's lives easier. We all live on the same small ball of a planet and respecting one's space and beliefs helps make the world go around.

Instead of just leaving it at that and hearing what I had to say, they decided to try and convince me that the "good in my heart" is from Jehovah. That it isn't my own choice to do good, but it's really his and the power of good is coming from him.
I explained that even if that was the case, I wouldn't have to worship him to get into his heaven. That if I were to be judged by which ever god is up there, they will see a kind and decent person and probably won't condemn me to hell just because I don't sing at a church.
With that they thanked me for my time and handed me a booklet. I decided to read it up until the most terrible part that through interpretation says that "All problems on the earth are created by man and can only be fixed by praying to and keeping faith in Jehovah." So, apparently this religion has never heard of, you break it you buy it.

Originally posted by Temperance13
reply to post by Grimpachi

 

Religion does not hold people back. We are not controlled by our faith, but rather we try to control ourselves through our faith. I am Catholic, not because I was or am brainwashed, but because after 7 years of studying, I found that I agreed with most of the teachings.

But that is only you. You can't speak for the billions of others. Religion is also the source of people's senseless killing. Even in this world today. It's great you have something to follow by example, but there are still plenty of people out there willing to do whatever is told to them as long as an ancient book says to do so. That doesn't just apply to the bible.