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Originally posted by DocHolidaze
reply to post by mee30
well at least gold is a usable resource and has a finite amount in the world(as far as we know) were as paper money can be counterfitted and printed as long as we have trees.
Originally posted by sheepslayer247
reply to post by mee30
There is really no point in trying to continue this discussion. While a few people have tried to give you information that addresses your OP, I guess you have not liked the answers and have changed the context of the question a few times throughout this thread.
Clearly, you are anti-Communism. That's fine and well within your right. All I would ask is that if you are going to be anti-Communism....at least know what Communism is and how it works. Otherwise you just look like a scared idiot that hates commies because of what they heard on the TV.
Originally posted by milominderbinder
Read up on Utilitarianism and Jeremy Bentham (a contemporary of Adam Smith's).
Absolute Socialism requires that individuals sacrifice for the good of the many.
Absolute Capitalism requires that the many sacrifice for the good of the few.
...Utilitarianism thinks you are intelligent enough to be able to use both philosophies responsibly. It's the economics of the MIDDLE classes.
I just got all mooshy reading that Very well put and the amount of stars you've received so far is very encouraging. There might be hope for us after all. True Marxist Communism eliminates the need for money and all of the horrors that comes with it... In the right hands that is
There are numerous employee owned, democratically controlled companies in the USA. Some of these were featured in Michael Moore's Capitalism: A Love Story.
1. The end of the High Middle Ages
"Capitalism was not, by any means, a "free market" evolving naturally or peacefully from the civilization of the high Middle Ages. As Oppenheimer argued, capitalism as a system of class exploitation was a direct successor to feudalism, and still displays the birth scars of its origins in late feudalism.
In short, history has been not only rewritten, but stood on its head by the victors.
- How many lies have been accumulated by Statist historians, in the pay of the State, in that period! Indeed have we not all learned at school for instance that the State had performed the great service of creating, out of the ruins of feudal society, national unions which had previously been made impossible by the rivalries between cities?.... And yet, now we learn that in spite of all the rivalries, medieval cities had already worked for four centuries toward building those unions, through federation, freely consented, and that they had succeeded.
- The socio-economic crisis weakened the nobility such that the peasants steadily increased their share of the surplus from 1250 to 1450 or 1500.... It was the increase in the standard of living of the lower strata moving in the direction of relative equalization of incomes... that for the upper strata represented the real crisis.... There was no way out of it without drastic social change. This way... was the creation of a capitalist world-system, a new form of surplus appropriation.
Kevin Amos Carson (born 1963) is an American social and political theorist and scholar of political economy writing in the mutualist and individualist anarchist traditions.
It's unfortunate there is communist bashing here. However lets be realistic. Man in inherently flawed. Mix a flawed man with power and there is a very high chance of extreme corruption. Communism works as an idea, it may even work on a very small scale where leaders can be held accountable.
To directly address OPs topic, collectively owned and managed workplaces and business are actually quite common and often very successful. They are a great example of how participatory democracy can be used to run a business in a efficient, equitable and fair way. If you want to understand what 'real' communism could look like, and not just the 'Actually Existing' communism of the soviet union, north korea, etc., read up on these worker cooperatives and imagine applying the management style to all aspects of society. Pure 'ideal type' socialism is really just participatory democracy applied to all aspects of society (law, economy, politics, education, etc.)
This ain't your daddy's Cold War conception of socialism/communism. Don't let other people tell you what Marxism/communism/socialism is. Look into yourself.
Originally posted by Unrealised
Real communism doesn't have any need for money.
The work is done either because it needs to be done, or because one has a passion for it.
You won't find any true communist business in this capitalist filth-pit of a society.
Oh no! Another person scared by communism! Oh no! Because i come from a former communist country i can tell you that capitalism and democracy damaged my country in 23 years more than communism in 40 years. Oh and by the way are you by any chance british or american? signature:
You will never understand communism, actually any other form of social/political/economical ideology, if you keep thinking that capitalist (the one that we live in, not the utopia one) values are mandatory or even present in other ideologies
It's like trying to use an old Linux OS expecting to be just like Windows. It's a poor metaphor, I know
It works different and there's a lot of good explanations in this topic if you are willing to listen OP. You don't need to agree, but just listen and try to understand.
Nope. Both are completely and utterly failed economic systems. Neither one is any more effective in producing a decent civilization than the other.
Yeah...the "finite amount" part should scare the bejeebies out of you. Sure...it's great for inflation...but it's one ugly mother for financial panics. Why not peg the currency to the mercantile exchange as a WHOLE? Or at the very, VERY, least a BASKET OF METALS? Basing the entire global economic system upon a single commodity is BEYOND insane in the modern world....and allows a handful of uber-rich global bankers to EASILY monopolize and dominate the system in a world where gold is a wee bit harder to come by and requires lots more mining equipment than it was a few hundred or thousand years ago. I agree that currency should be reflective of SOMETHING (besides debt)...but the idea that we can all "just go back to the gold standard" is seriously very, VERY, shortsighted.
This is an interesting article on the origin of capitalism, that is also related to that Wiki article you posted on the Middle Ages...
As I said before, capitalist land owners simply took what the working class had already been doing and industrialised it, in order to concentrate the wealth created by the many into the hands of the few.
That change started when the ruling class had the inclosure laws enacted. The land owners forced the people off their land, giving them no choice but to work for the land owner (private owner/capitalist) in order to feed themselves. The land owners monopolised the ability to secure resources, giving the people no choice but to become slave labour. The wealth created lead to the industrial revolution and the mass industrial exploitation of labour, setting back the years of advancements the people had made. Your history books were written by the "victors".