A quick question for communists before bed...

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posted on Nov, 17 2012 @ 12:03 AM
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reply to post by BABYBULL24
 


Why are you repeating this when I just explained the so called ten-planks are nothing to do with communism?

We are not going to go through a Marxist path to reach worker ownership, so arguing against Marxism is a pointless exorcise.

Marx was just ONE socialism movement, there were many more less famous that did not share in Marxist plan.

By just bringing up Marx shows you fail to understand what you're trying to argue against.

I am not a Marxist. Using Marxism to discredit socialism is just silly. Especially when you don't understand either.




posted on Nov, 17 2012 @ 12:06 AM
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reply to post by sheepslayer247
 





Actually, you never said anything of the sort in the OP. Here is your quote:


Ahhhh selective quoting, gotta love it right or did you not get past the first paragraph? How about right at the beginning of the second paragraph?



Surely this could be done today quite easily no?


Where in the quote you mentioned or any of my post did I say within a communist society?




It would help if you specified up-front that you wanted examples from within our current system.


I did, but perhaps I could of been clearer... So do you have any? If not, why not?




But that does help illustrate my point. America, assuming you mean America, is not Communist and since Communism doesn't believe in free-trade.....there are no examples to provide.


EH? When did I say america was communist? (though it aint far from it)... Please explain why you and a bunch of comrades could not set up your own little communistic network, would capitalism outlaw it? NOPE... But at least you answered me, there are no communistic companies... Why not????




Obviously, that is where the "misunderstanding" comes in to play.


And on who's shoulders is that? lol




Please understand....there are no business' in Communism. Everything is owned by the people. No business' .....ever.


You are playing with semantics!!! I already said "or whatever you want to call it"... I totally understand the system and the premise, can you please understand that? Can you also understand that you will need a group of people that are working together much like a business to get stuff done? And that group will need organizing.



That is where the state organizes and does it's job.


HAZAR, the state that is so corrupt and controlling today would have COMPLETE control of EVERYTHING, what a marvelous idea! Where do I sign up? Oh wait, what? You will get nice trustworthy people to run the control grid? I see, I see... I'm sorry but if you can't see the problem here I can not help you...



posted on Nov, 17 2012 @ 12:06 AM
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Originally posted by sheepslayer247
reply to post by ANOK
 


Very well said and precisely my point. Most people have no understanding of Communism....and therefore the debate is pointless.


People just don't want to admit they are wrong, even in the face of overwhelming evidence.



posted on Nov, 17 2012 @ 12:11 AM
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reply to post by Unrealised
 


Do I have the place for you! Seatopia in cairns, Queensland, Australia is forming right now.


A floating micro-nation in international waters, IOW a ship big enough to accommodate approx. fifty people in comfort and safety. It can feed us, enables tax free purveying and alleviates the red tape of visa permits which could cause a few headaches considering our multinational assemblage.

We can still pursue other avenues from said resorts to little hamlets in co-operation with native villages. -- We can trade with them and establish plantations. Live on land or on board, or even both periodically. But most importantly this is something that can be done without undue delay, without ifs and buts and without venturing into the unknown.



posted on Nov, 17 2012 @ 12:12 AM
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reply to post by DocHolidaze
 





people could spend less time on Facebook (in stead of face book, there would be trade book and the tube and focus on there trades. and if there was the barter system, im sure Ferrari could figure how to profit, why not throw gold in the mix and other precious metals, it has many uses, and can be used as a barter item that all around the world want. with everyone responsible for there own trades, it would make everyone responsible for the economy, not just the banks and the government. i just threw this idea out there originally for the sake of it, but know i believe we should start a new political ideal. Barterism


No facebook would be a great idea but I don't think you get me... My point was that ferrari themselves would have to get the parts right or materials to make the parts. Thousands of different items would need to be traded. It would be a nightmare for the company... Let's say they do it with gold... Well then you have even bigger problems, because not everyone would use gold, if they did, we would be back to money! lol... As they wouldn't ferrari would have to trade all the different items they got in exchange for gold so they can purchase new materials... It would be a massive mess and grind to a halt in a week! lol

Nice idea though...



posted on Nov, 17 2012 @ 12:13 AM
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reply to post by mee30
 


The reason the state is corrupt now is because of capitalism. Because a minority class of people can make far more wealth than the majority, giving them the ability to financially dominate the state and the people.

Socialism doesn't have to have a state system, but even if it does it is not the state in the same way the capitalist state is.

The state we get is a result of the economic system we have.

Think about this, with the state you have some say, with a private company you have no say. Private capitalism is a form of dictatorship, an economic dictatorship, which can be just as totalitarian and brutal as a state dictatorship.

The state under true socialism would be answerable to the people, not to big business.



posted on Nov, 17 2012 @ 12:19 AM
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reply to post by mee30
 



Where in the quote you mentioned or any of my post did I say within a communist society?


Where in your post did you say "within our current system"? Let's post your full OP to make it clear.



So my question is simple... If communism is such a grand idea why haven't communists got together to run businesses? Have they? Like no-one owns the place of business and everybody is paid the same and there is no hierarchy etc... I would be interested in hearing examples if there are any... Surely this could be done today quite easily no? Most of OWS are of the communist persuasion, so there are no shortage of people with the same ideology. In fact I know many people that do not profess to be communist but would agree that everyone should get paid the same etc... Also if there is no hierarchy how would you divvy up the wages? How would you hire and fire? Would you use democracy/mob rule for everything? What if a bunch of people took a disliking to a particular colleague? They could just vote him/her out? It sounds like an absolute nightmare!


Moving on......



When did I say america was communist?


I never claimed you did. That's why I said "assuming you mean America".



Please explain why you and a bunch of comrades could not set up your own little communistic network, would capitalism outlaw it? NOPE... But at least you answered me, there are no communistic companies... Why not????


True Communism does not practice free-trade....therefore no business'. The fallacy in your thinking is what makes some people believe you do not know what Communism is.

You keep on about business' run by Commies....but fail to realize that Commies don't believe in them.



HAZAR, the state that is so corrupt and controlling today would have COMPLETE control of EVERYTHING, what a marvelous idea! Where do I sign up? Oh wait, what? You will get nice trustworthy people to run the control grid? I see, I see... I'm sorry but if you can't see the problem here I can not help you...


Have you lived in a Communist state? Do you know how it works, or are you taking your knowledge of corrupt Capitalist "states" and applying it incorrectly?
edit on 17-11-2012 by sheepslayer247 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 17 2012 @ 12:23 AM
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reply to post by ANOK
 





Why do you need to see that? There are no companies that are not owned by anyone, worker owned is worker owned. There are many worker owned companies, you just haven't looked for them.


No No mr anok you did not read the question did you? Don't just pick out one part... You went to great length telling me what communism is and it is not JUST about worker ownership now is it... Again one last time... Please as there are so many companies tell me ONE that is not owned or worker owned where everyone gets the same wage and there is no hierarchy... Notice here there is more than one stipulation...




Didn't I do that in my post above? But regardless if there wasn't any to show you what difference would that make? Why would that not make it a good idea?



Nope, you did not anok... There are many reasons why it is not a good idea, the fact that it has not been done yet is not one of them... That was not the point of this thread... I want to know from a communist (people the preach about getting together yeah?????) why you haven't got together and started practicing what you preach... Would you at least admit that it would be POSSIBLE to do it today?




BTW what do I ignore? And it's not my problem if you fail to grasp the point of the links I provide. If you don't like my posts then exorcise your right to ignore me, thank you.


We had a lengthy debate where you ignored pretty much everything my friend and you know it... Do you really expect me to list them? In fact I will give you one example, I posed this question in the OP to YOU in our previous debate many times and you ignored it every time...

I grasped very well what you put forward and it was pretty damn vile... One communist thought you should take over everything by force of government and another just wanted to get the pitchfork out and take it themselves etc...

You want to be the theif is pretty much it... You want to decide what people can have (we must all have the same/equal), what people can pass on to their children.. etc etc... Look you can have that system for all I care. What I say is keep ME out of it... Is that so much to ask?



posted on Nov, 17 2012 @ 12:27 AM
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reply to post by mee30
 


You're changing the premise and the parameters of the debate as you laid out in the OP to cover for a misinformed understanding of Communism.

Bad form!



posted on Nov, 17 2012 @ 12:42 AM
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reply to post by ANOK
 





The reason the state is corrupt now is because of capitalism. Because a minority class of people can make far more wealth than the majority, giving them the ability to financially dominate the state and the people.


Anok... Please don't tell me you believe that? It doesn't matter which monetary system is in place or indeed no monetary system at all the system can still be abused for rights and privileges or perhaps they would get the top end food etc... They could and would rig the system just as they have today! Only under communism they would have even greater control...




Socialism doesn't have to have a state system, but even if it does it is not the state in the same way the capitalist state is.


Most ridiculous thing I have ever heard! She you do this a lot! lol... Socialism is the redistribution of wealth, how would you do that without a state! Jesus... Oh but you told me before that communism is about anarchy... Seems you can't keep your story straight...




The state we get is a result of the economic system we have.


You are blaming a gun for shooting someone here... We are in this mess because we give the initiation of the use of force to a tiny minority and expect them not to mistreat it, it has NOTHING to do with capitalism... Bailing out the bankers has nothing to do with capitalism!

With communism you would get the ruling class taking a nice extra chunk for themselves, I can guarantee that... The ONLY solution is anarchy...




Think about this, with the state you have some say, with a private company you have no say. Private capitalism is a form of dictatorship, an economic dictatorship, which can be just as totalitarian and brutal as a state dictatorship.


See we went through ALL of this before anok and you are just blinded by your ideology, you have invested so much into it that you will twist and skew things into your favour... If a company mistreats you you are free to LEAVE, you can make a living doing all sorts of things! Especially in this day and age! I am self employed... I encourage people to get out of the factories and take the plunge... But do you know what? They don't want to! They CHOOSE to stay anok... Why can't you see this? Seriously?




The state under true socialism would be answerable to the people, not to big business.


But before you said it didn't need a government? And how exactly do you figure this out mate? Like seriously? The government has all the damn guns! Look at america for god sake... It was founded on the premise of having the citizens as sovereign and the ultimate... Now look what happened anok...

You are really cherry picking info here so that you can wrap it round to fit what you think is right...

Now tell me, why can't we have a free market of philosophy? You can have communism and I can have true free market capitalism and then at the end of the day we can sit down in the pub and bitch about our choices? lol WHY NOT?



posted on Nov, 17 2012 @ 12:52 AM
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Originally posted by mee30
No No mr anok you did not read the question did you? Don't just pick out one part... You went to great length telling me what communism is and it is not JUST about worker ownership now is it... Again one last time... Please as there are so many companies tell me ONE that is not owned or worker owned where everyone gets the same wage and there is no hierarchy... Notice here there is more than one stipulation...


I read your whole question, I answered the best way I could. Sorry if I fail to see the point you're trying to make.

The final goal of Communism and Socialism is worker ownership, otherwise called free association, period. That is it. What you keep referring to as parts of communism are in reality parts of movements for communism. of which there have been many, often with contradicting ideas. From the utopian movements of Robery Owen to the political scientific socialism of Marx to the revolutionary direct action socialism of the Anarchists. They all had different ideas and plans but they all had the same final goal in mind, worker ownership.

Because socialists believe the only way to achieve a classless, stateless, truly libertarian society for all is when the workers have common ownership of the means to produce. It is the only way we would be free to produce what we need without the restrictions of having to make profit. That is the only way to ensure a stable supply of needed resources based on community needs.

Now try to read that without looking for ways to demonise it, and just realise that is what socialists want, not what the right-wing state has told you. Whether you agree or not, try to argue against what it actually is, then we might be able to get into a real discussion instead of arguing over terminology.


Nope, you did not anok... There are many reasons why it is not a good idea, the fact that it has not been done yet is not one of them... That was not the point of this thread... I want to know from a communist (people the preach about getting together yeah?????) why you haven't got together and started practicing what you preach... Would you at least admit that it would be POSSIBLE to do it today?


I didn't? What is it that I preach about would you want me to do? I don't think I have done anything but try to explain what socialism is, and what capitalism is. You don't have to keep replying to me if you don't like my responses.



We had a lengthy debate where you ignored pretty much everything my friend and you know it... Do you really expect me to list them? In fact I will give you one example, I posed this question in the OP to YOU in our previous debate many times and you ignored it every time...

I grasped very well what you put forward and it was pretty damn vile... One communist thought you should take over everything by force of government and another just wanted to get the pitchfork out and take it themselves etc...

You want to be the theif is pretty much it... You want to decide what people can have (we must all have the same/equal), what people can pass on to their children.. etc etc... Look you can have that system for all I care. What I say is keep ME out of it... Is that so much to ask?


I still really don't know what I've ignored. That silly question you keep asking about where it has worked? I have shown you, but you refuse to accept that you are wrong about what communism/socialism is. So it's only in your mind that I haven't answered the question.

Man you should really stop. You obviously have some emotional problem with this discussion. I don't appreciate the attitude dude.

Please explain to me what is wrong with worker ownership? Simple question. If you keep insisting that it is more than just worker ownership then this debate is pointless. If you can't recognise the difference between an economic system, and a movement for that economic system, then this discussion is pointless, you'll never grasp what I'm saying.


In the anarchist, Marxist and socialist sense, free association (also called free association of producers or, as Marx often called it, community of freely associated individuals) is a kind of relation between individuals where there is no state, social class or authority, in a society that has abolished the private property of means of production. Once private property is abolished, individuals are no longer deprived of access to means of production so they can freely associate themselves (without social constraint) to produce and reproduce their own conditions of existence and fulfill their needs and desires....


Free association (communism and anarchism)

edit on 11/17/2012 by ANOK because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 17 2012 @ 12:56 AM
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reply to post by sheepslayer247
 





Where in your post did you say "within our current system"? Let's post your full OP to make it clear.


My word are we still here? What did you think I meant by "surely this can be done today"? TODAY... Did you think I meant the whole country flip ideology today and that it was possible?
Oh but it is me that is uneducated and unable to admit my mistakes.





I never claimed you did. That's why I said "assuming you mean America".


I am actually in england but that isn't even the point...




True Communism does not practice free-trade....therefore no business'. The fallacy in your thinking is what makes some people believe you do not know what Communism is.


Nope this is exactly like arguing anok... You are just lying and twisting it is pathetic... Who is going on about free trade? What the hell are you on about? Just gain some land in various parts of the world, most of you probably have garden to start with... Make a shed or something and get to starting your business/communist organized lifestyle... I didn't say you even had to interact with the capitalist system whatsoever, did I? Am I supposed to draw up your entire communist plan for you?




You keep on about business' run by Commies....but fail to realize that Commies don't believe in them.


No, this against is just being pedantic about semantics. Business is just something easier to say than, a bunch or people getting together and making stuff or growing stuff etc etc.. If the word business offends you that much give me an alternative that would describe it!




Have you lived in a Communist state? Do you know how it works, or are you taking your knowledge of corrupt Capitalist "states" and applying it incorrectly?


NOPE I get my info off people like anok (now don't read ONLY anok okay...)... He doesn't believe anyone should own anything, do you believe that? He believes he should be able to go into say a family pet store and kick the owners out and take it back for the people... Do you believe that?



posted on Nov, 17 2012 @ 12:59 AM
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reply to post by sheepslayer247
 


HA HA... Again EH? What are you on about... There is me thinking you could be reasonable but you are a downright liar like all the rest... Where the hell have I changed anything? I want the same as I always did! Don't be butthurt that you can't provide it! Step aside, maybe someone else can...



posted on Nov, 17 2012 @ 01:09 AM
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I knew I should not of started this at the time I did... lol

It is 7.00am here now and my kids have arisen so I gotta go... I'll be back later to put you straight once again... We can work through this! lol...



posted on Nov, 17 2012 @ 03:37 AM
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Originally posted by mee30
So my question is simple... If communism is such a grand idea why haven't communists got together to run businesses?


Because that would be capitalist not communist.


Originally posted by mee30
Like no-one owns the place of business and everybody is paid the same and there is no hierarchy etc... I would be interested in hearing examples if there are any...


Well business isn't really a part of communism in the same way it is in capitalism, It's more making things that people need rather than making stuff to sell to people.



Originally posted by mee30
Surely this could be done today quite easily no? Most of OWS are of the communist persuasion, so there are no shortage of people with the same ideology. In fact I know many people that do not profess to be communist but would agree that everyone should get paid the same etc...


Capitalism work like a pyramid scheme the people at the top with most money have the most power, That's why America did their full out Communism bad act back in the 70/80's because the rich republicans/capitalist where scared of loosing their power/money.



Originally posted by mee30
Also if there is no hierarchy how would you divvy up the wages? How would you hire and fire? Would you use democracy/mob rule for everything? What if a bunch of people took a disliking to a particular colleague? They could just vote him/her out?



Well Communism is kinda pure democracy, so their would be a lot of polls and I mean A LOT.

All current laws would not be chosen by politicians (Kinda of like a authoritarianism government, which we called democracy) But by us the people we would all vote what laws we want in our land. Politicians don't have much power in communism that another reason with the American hate propaganda in the 70's they didn't want to loose power. May be because they thought the American people where a bunch of idiots who didn't know what they wanted so thank god that governor so so has come along or... May be they where greedy and wanted power like a dictatorship, Which brings me onto my next point.


Dictatorships have been exploited in Communism like debt has in Capitalism. Dictatorship does not = Communism.

TBH communism is like pure democracy which is far Left, While dictatorship is far right. This is where Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels messed up, they thought the dictator would be a good human being a man of morals and ethics and kindness. But instead they had heartless men with big egos who wanted power. They thought pure democracy or communism would vote in these men, but instead they where put in power by lies, cheating, murder, violence, fear and force.

That is not the way of communism, because even though in the 'Communist manifesto' It does state that you need a Dictator for a while to organise things and initially get things off the ground it doesn't state how long or how much power he/she should have. Hence why Communism was exploited by mean men who wanted power to fuel their ego.

In reality there has never been a truly Communist nation, most they have just been authoritarianism governments with a streak of capitalism like China is now. Would a truly communist nation have Apple/Microsoft/Aston martin stores? No because their business model and the way they operate is capitalist. But unfortunately people in the west around the 50/60/70's where so scared about what their so called 'love uncle Sam nation' was telling them about communism that they didn't take a few steps back to actually try to understand the system and see how it works, The just listen to there 'wireless' and super futuristic all truth telling television, about what communism really is..... This makes me sad, because it is all lies,

Communism made the American government scared purely barbecue of how much of a socially viable option it is (And a few nuclear weapons) for a society to live, it is much more socially acceptable people are more free and more close with out the constraints of classes or big houses or cars or rich companies we are all closer.

Communism has a more socially equal structure between the classes and treated people the same, where as capitalism said if you work hard and take enough money off people then you deserve it, where as in communism you shouldn't have to work to be equal you born equal, but unfortunately in capitalism you are not born equal.

You are born into a bondage where you have to earn and work to get free.




IMHO would Communism work? Money wise yes because there would be no (Recessions) financial crashes, governments would not suck up to big corporations for money and jobs, Stock markets would pretty much be vaporised because their is no need for them.

Let me remind you that is what caused this recession and will cause future recession as well, make people loose their jobs, homes, marriages, cars, split up families. and commit suicide.



posted on Nov, 17 2012 @ 05:17 AM
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reply to post by mee30
 


From over here in the UK it looks like the US is turning into a communist country. The governement is buying up the banks and creating a national health care system. Meanwhile a bit further away a communist country called China is buying up half the world..



posted on Nov, 17 2012 @ 05:23 AM
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reply to post by mee30
 


that's the old fashioned commy. The new commy as an example is Obumbum=care



posted on Nov, 17 2012 @ 05:25 AM
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Originally posted by deessell

Originally posted by boymonkey74
reply to post by mee30
 


The Chinese seem to be doing quite well economically though.
Oh I bet there isn't many real communists on ATS tbh.
Also the OWS seem to be socialists big difference.
edit on 16-11-2012 by boymonkey74 because: (no reason given)


China would be better described as State Capitalism. Don't forget, in China these days it is "glorious to get rich".


Correct! I love the term "state capitalism", by the way.

"Real" communism really does not exist anymore (haven't been to Cuba or NK, tho) - the notion that there are still "communists" with the goal to turn America into Communism is ABSURD.

Even "die-hard" socialists have long realized it needs elements of capitalism - otherwise "pure" picture-book "communism" will NEVER even work. (let alone in the US...lol). It has been proven a fail many times already.

No "sane" socialist or ultra-left winger would have the goal to bring communism ANYWHERE, even they know it wont work.
edit on 17-11-2012 by flexy123 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 17 2012 @ 05:27 AM
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Ever heard of the Amana Colonies in Iowa? 40 square miles of true communism. They apparently had a system that worked very well for years. They even had systems set up that would select people to becone doctors and pay for their education with a contract requiring them to come back to provide their service to the community.

Im no communist (or capitalist either), but theres no reason a bunch of communists couldnt start a communist village and do really well.



posted on Nov, 17 2012 @ 06:58 AM
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Originally posted by bl4ke360

Originally posted by Unrealised


I've stated what makes communism works, and I also stated that I wouldn't really go on about it, especially to the Borg.



Number of people that died as a result of communists:

65 million in the People’s Republic of China
20 million in the Soviet Union
2 million in Cambodia
2 million in North Korea
1.7 million in Africa
1.5 million in Afghanistan
1 million in the Communist states of Eastern Europe
1 million in Vietnam
150,000 in Latin America

Yes, communism seems to have worked very nicely.


It does not work well when power pyramids (political) are created and you become a slave to the system. Any power pyramid is bad, be it capitalism, representive communism, republic, democracy or religion based pyramid. The greedy unevolved soultrash always screw it up with corruption and wanting more than they fair share even if the do not put in the effort to create something. The only thing that works is rule by the people for the people on an as local level as possible.

You do get that Jesus, Buddha and Krishna would have been communists don't you?





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