Looking for some answers...

Hey everyone,

I had a group of Jehovah�s Witness�s visit me today. They were doing they're regular talking and such, then we got into health science. I'm a fairly frequent body builder (thats how it started) and they claimed that after the age of 10 your bodies immune system starts to get weaker due to cells not being formed after dying. I'm aware of the immune system theory but then they claimed the answers to these questions are in the bible. My question is where? and how does the bible explain why the cells die?

Also they talked about Einstein and how his e=mc2 was inspired by the bible because energy creates mass and energy was god creating mass? Im confused now and i'd like some other opinions and get a discussion going.

Lastly they used the old precision arguement. "If you were walking in a desert and you found a fully functional watch, do you think the elements could create this with time?" No certainly not and then they related that to how its possible for us to be on earth with such precision.

So basically id just like to get ATS's input and see what everyone else thinks.

The bible doesn't say anything that spacific. At least the KJV one. I can't even think of any that you could really stretch that would say something about cells not forming. I can see the logic behind it cells dying scientificly, but the bible makes no mention of it. How would they even have known about cells and the immune system back in those days? Im sure they might have had some ideas, but nothing compared to now.

Ditto Ronin, I read the NIV - nothing on cellular degeneration, Law of Conservation of Mass and Energy, or speed of light. I think this is intentional for two reasons. 1) It's not necessary information to believe in God and 2) What fun is science or discovering the wonders of God when you already have all the answers?

Could it be the Jehovah Witness' are adding more to the Bible than what's there? They used to stop by my house (I guess they got tired of arguing with me) and told me why blood transfusion are a sin even if it is to save your life or someone else's. I didn't even bother asking about organ donations.

Another thing they told me is to not celebrate any holidays or birthdays, they are pagan. I asked "What about Jesus' birthday?" and got an answer like "we don't know when he was actually born". So I guess it's okay by them to not be joyous about his coming to earth to save mankind.

Also they say joining the military is not permitted by God. To do so is to negate the kingdom of God and worshiping the country. Worshipping the country? I need to sit down for a second after that. Okay, who here loves America that much to worship it? We all know those cultists that worship the president

*shrug* I don't get the angle, nor the connection between the scripture they are quoting as it applies to their beliefs. I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm saying I don't understand.

Alright, I've worked these questions before A LOT in my studies as a Philosophy of Religion major work.

I've checked the Catholic, King James, New International and even the Mormon bibles and I got nothing on these questions. Now I haven't gotten around to reading up on the Witnesses that much yet (so many religions so little time) but there is a rather universal point that could be made here:

Some Christians (and some from many other religions for that matter) will say lots of things that are not quite truthful to try to convert someone.

In the times the bible was written, the cell had not even been discovered yet, so I highly doubt that there is anything in there that could be taken literally about cellular degridation. Anything they say about that would probably be taken out of context, or be an interpretation of a more vague passage.

As for the mass and energy things, well that's more of a reach than a direct untruth. There are lots of interpretations regarding god and energy. The bible isn't the most clear regarding what powers god exactly has, except the general "all powerful" rule. With that I guess I can see how they could come to that conclusion, but again it's not something that is directly in the bible in literal form.

The "Watch in the Desert" argument is an old proof for the existance of god that I believe was used by reformers in the middle ages first. It's old, and it's tired. I'm still waiting to find a perfect proof, and so is the rest of the philosophical/theological world for that matter. Argument that I usually use against it is the sheer age of the universe, a lot can happen with random occurances and a few billion years. A lot of people really don't realize how massively huge that number really is.

Well hope that helps

May Peace Travel With You
~Astral

I've read the OT, NT, and the Mormon books with a skeptical eye, and I don't recall anything in them even remotely resembling cellular decay or Einstein's theories.

Did the JWs have a pamphlet on these claims? Did they leave you a contact number? Missionaries thrive on ignorance. They don't expect anyone to question them. You should call them and tell them to give you the exact scriptures that support their claims, then post them here for scrutiny.

Originally posted by The Astral City
In the times the bible was written, the cell had not even been discovered yet, so I highly doubt that there is anything in there that could be taken literally about cellular degridation. Anything they say about that would probably be taken out of context, or be an interpretation of a more vague passage.

As for the mass and energy things, well that's more of a reach than a direct untruth. There are lots of interpretations regarding god and energy. The bible isn't the most clear regarding what powers god exactly has, except the general "all powerful" rule. With that I guess I can see how they could come to that conclusion, but again it's not something that is directly in the bible in literal form.

Thanks that cleared up some things for me. They didn't really give me a solid answer, just to read the passages and they're in there.

Originally posted by DeltaChaos
Did the JWs have a pamphlet on these claims? Did they leave you a contact number? Missionaries thrive on ignorance. They don't expect anyone to question them. You should call them and tell them to give you the exact scriptures that support their claims, then post them here for scrutiny.

I may just do that, they did give me a pamphlet but it didn't relate to anything they explained to me. Right off the bat I told them I was agnostic and a man of science, so I think they may have tried some sort of weak counter arguement using the bible. I'm not really familiar with the bibles they use and im not exactly strong on my relegious studies.

be ready for the " your not really ( insert your choice) you just think you are"
line. i got that one just before i told them i was calling the police to have them
removed if the didnt leave NOW.

jehovah witnesses are a cult, you should do a web search on them first before believing anything they say

I had some of these guys come to my house one time and just for the curiosity, I made some coffee and we had a good couple of hours of talking. Kinda funny, they seemed interested in knowing when my wife worked, didn't think much of it at the time but the next week they came back with two of the most incredible looking young females I had seen in some time. Needless to say I made some more coffee, but apparently mormonism is not above clever marketing.
Oh yeah, Jim Jones was a mormon.

Linux,

Watch out! The Jehovah's Witnesses have embraced a terrible lie. Their belief system is full of false doctrines. Please do your homework on them before proceeding further. I leave you two links:

This link is to an organization called CRI. Go here and read up on the Jehovah's Witnesses.
www.equip.org...


This second link is for a web based online Bible. You can look up any scriptures and it�s easy to use.
www.blueletterbible.org...

God bless you!

Thanks for the information everyone, not to worry though. I'm not about to give up my agnostic title. Seeing as how they can't give solid evidence and have obviously lied to me already I don't think they'll be getting much more support from me.

!~~~

those JW 'missionaries' might be basing on two items in scripture books



i could not refer to chapter & verse, but item #1. would be...

(paraphrase)...all creatures created AFTER their own kind.


item #2...it is given man, a lifetime of 70 years

~~~~~~

in each of these 'windows', the observed natural course of life-death is
assumed to have been 'imprinted'....and such things as cell regeneration
and the limit of cell regenerations to 8 cycles....was relegated to the region
called 'mystery-of-God', and not 'given' for man to understand during those
times & technology levels...

and, only those 'pious' church leaders, were privy to have 'council' with
the religious/spiritual heirarchy...(depending on which faith, dogma you are
enmeshed with)

?? i donno, but i think anyone ('they') could extrapolate, any desired
conclusion, from texts...a sorta back-rewrite (& fill-in the gaps) approach
to 'creating' their personnal dogmas & proofs from scriptual snippetts.

whose to say, who is correct or incorrect?
just like the current bible-codes revelations, just 'fuzzy-up' the arena of debate

enjoy your journey

Originally posted by saint4God

Could it be the Jehovah Witness' are adding more to the Bible than what's there?

A number of years ago I worked at an office that had employed about a dozen or so JW's. I worked side-by-side with one of the women and we became good chums...often going out to lunch together. Before I knew it there were a number of them tagging along. One day just as we were getting ready to leave the office for our noon hour gathering it was announced that they were going to be having a bible study during lunch that day, but that I was more than welcome to attend. I've always believed that if you really want to get to know someone...get to know their religion...so I joined them. I bit my tongue the whole time while listening and observing. It was obvious that they wanted to convert me to their religion...even lending me a copy of the official JW's handbook for the weekend. In my opinion it was their version of the Bible. It was a small 4 x 5 inch hard covered book and only took me a few hours throughout the weekend to read it. I could write a book talking about it, but the gist of it is that they have taken many excerpts from the Bible and completely manipulated them to suit their unique beliefs.

In a nutshell, they believe that they are the meek that shall inherit the earth, and that the rest of us are doomed to everlasting hell for not believing as they do. Given a choice they'd rather not have to work or live amongst us at all. They are some of the most un-Christ-like people I've ever met...who'd even laugh about how the children in their congregation threw stones at and verbally assaulted some unfortunate street derelict who happened to pass by the parking lot of their "Kingdom Hall" one Sunday afternoon. Not very God-like, if you ask me.

I guess I should look into these people a bit more. From some of your descriptions I'm begining to think they sound like a cross between Christian Scientists and Mormons in their vigor (not making a comment about dogma there just their level of fervor) I acutally just finnished writing a paper regarding how spiritual writings and artifacts have been deliberately misinterpreted for social or political means (more specifically the new testament and for issues regarding capital punishment) So I'd be interested in what exactly the Witnesses say regarding scripture.

I probably have not had to deal with them personally because I live in a rather tall appartment building and I doubt they'd be quite welcome. Does anyone have any instances of them comming into appartment buildings and going door to door there?

I have had some people from the Nation of Islam drop by before, good blokes mostly, not that I truly agree with their religion that much, but they were pretty good for a conversation about religion.

Well at any rate, when I get the chance I'll read up on the Witnesses and ask some of my comrades at the university if they have anything to add. Anyone got any good websites on them?

May Peace Travel With You & Blessed Be
~Astral

JW's is a false type of christianity. Keep in mind but, as far as cell degeneration you have to realize that No science or man on earth can tell you why you are literally dying.

All of us are dying from the inside out, decay of the flesh, immune system etc. etc. but, the word says that we are dying because of the sins of adam which are pasted down from generation to generation.