Israel vs Gaza - Are the Hamas Rockets really the cause of the IDF actions?

Originally posted by HumanObserver
reply to post by PvtHudson

 

\You have no freak'in idea what you're talking about? Mortars? Fireworks?? Try GRAD, Fajr-3s and 5s, Katushas and the smallest of them all the Qasam.

You missed the point...Compared to what Israel fires off, then yes, these mortars are like fireworks.

Not smart to bring a knife to a gun fight.

Originally posted by HumanObserver
reply to post by PvtHudson

 

\You have no freak'in idea what you're talking about? Mortars? Fireworks?? Try GRAD, Fajr-3s and 5s, Katushas and the smallest of them all the Qasam.

You missed the point...Compared to what Israel fires off, then yes, these mortars are like fireworks.

Then it's even stupider to fire at Israel then, surely?

Anyone else thinking that the Hamas rocket fire might have bee a distraction for something getting ready to go down in Syria? I'll see what I kind find on that front.

Originally posted by HumanObserver
reply to post by PvtHudson

 

\You have no freak'in idea what you're talking about? Mortars? Fireworks?? Try GRAD, Fajr-3s and 5s, Katushas and the smallest of them all the Qasam.

You missed the point...Compared to what Israel fires off, then yes, these mortars are like fireworks.

\No, they're not mortars and "fireworks". You can keep saying that all you want, but it's just not so. Your argument makes no sense. It's not Israel's fault a weaker enemy chooses to terrorize their country. This idea of "proportionate" warfare is utterly retarded.


Tell me, would you be ok with Israel responding to Hamas attacks with the same munitions Hamas uses?

It looks like the "primary cause" just might be what I originally thought.

Chief Palestinian peace negotiator Saeb Erekat, whose efforts to achieve a treaty with Israel are scorned by Hamas as treason, said Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas's "efforts are focused on one thing: deescalate the violence and save lives in Gaza.

That's what we're hoping for." "No amount of pressure can stop our efforts at the United Nations" to obtain a General Assembly vote at the end of the month granting observer status to the Palestinian territories, including the Gaza Strip, West Bank and East Jerusalem, he said.

Hamas rejects the diplomacy of Abbas outright. But Erekat said: "It is our brothers' and sisters' blood. This is no time for internal squabbles or pointing fingers."

news.yahoo.com...

It looks like a general assembly vote is scheduled for November 29th.

Israel are continuing its air strikes as I type. They are softening up! Troops will and tanks may well follow.

I suspect that Iran and Syria will follow.....but could be wrong!

This was anticipated months ago but Israel were asked by US to do nothing before election.

The other interesting fact is that Turkey have already amassed troops on the Syrian border.

Wonder if all this was coordinated........possibly.

Originally posted by heineken

Originally posted by hououinkyouma
reply to post by heineken

 

Well........yes!

edit on 16-11-2012 by hououinkyouma because: (no reason given)

i hope actions will be taken by staff on your comment...if not..i will certainly start loosing faith in the forum

Right. Because censorship is the way to go.

My reasoning is they are responding to rocket attacks.

If I was throwing rcks at your windows, and you had a device to stop them reaching the house but I continued to throw rocks at your house I bet anything you'd still try to stop me. You have a tipping point like even a nation does.

Great post. Too many people are blinded by Israel, I suppose because they are US allies; or maybe because of what the Bible says. Regardless of these points, the fact is that Hamas has nothing to do with the government that Palestinians themselves have set up. In fact, these extremely modern and democratic politicians, including their president, denounce the actions of Hamas and have done very much to rid them from their territory.

The quality of life in areas like the West Bank and Gaza has greatly increased, while violence generated by Hamas or other radicals has drastically decreased compared to what it used to be. But it is still by no means safe. Hamas still plays a role in all of this however, because they think they have the right to lead the Palestinian people, while a legitimate government tries to remain legitimate and operate through them or around them, but it is not all that easy at times. But I think things are looking good for their future, as long as Israel leaves them alone. But I doubt that will happen.

The fact is, like the OP says, Israel has a defense shield that should protect them, if indeed Hamas is shooting missiles. And Hamas is a terrorist organization, so how does Israel justify shooting into Palestinian territory, at civilians, when it is the terrorists who are doing any shooting towards Israel? I can totally see why Palestinians would hate Israel, because they have been oppressed by them, to put it bluntly. Israel should know what it is like to be oppressed, and thus they should not do it to others, but they apparently have a short memory.

I do not have a great grasp on the situation over there, but I understand enough to know that Israel is definitely more in the wrong than Palestine. People want to talk about how Palestinian kids throw rocks at Israeli guards, and say this is why Israel is on the defensive. But the people who say this do not take into account what these people have had to put up with, their houses being demolished, their citizens killed by supposedly "retalliatory" strikes, despite the fact it is a terrorist group shooting at Israel, not the majority of the citizenry. It is just a big mess.

I think Israel, being the actual nation, and considering that they do not play by UN rules themselves, and are extremely big in hypocrisy, should be the nation to attempt to make peace. But while they claim to peaceful and religious, they are neither. And many of their citizens share the hypocrisy of their government. This is true, but to a lesser extent, for Palestinian citizens.

The iron domes will not be used on anything smaller than an ICBM or similar since they are so expensive.

Who wins if your enemy lobs round after round of 1000$ rockets, and you shoot them down with something 10-100 times more expensive? Yeah.

reply to post by JiggyPotamus


You are incorrect.

Hamas is the democratically elected rulers of the Gaza Strip. The Palestinian Authority rules the West Bank.

Hamas declared war on Israel at their inception, so therefore Gaza is at war with Israel, making any Israeli incursion perfectly legal. They are reaping what they have sown.

Originally posted by HumanObserver
reply to post by heineken

 

It's about expansion, and these deadly rockets/missiles coming from Gaza that Israel goes on about, are just simple little mortar rounds, basically fireworks.

And everyone forgetting Israel created Hamas, and probably still control Hamas.

The motto of Mossad has long been based on practicing the art of deception to engage in covert and overt warfare.

Mossad's motto.
"By Way of Deception, Thou Shalt Do War"
(Hebrew: be-tahb l t ta`aseh lekh milkham h)

Most of those little fireworks pack 100 pounds of explosive on them let alone the two Iranian made F5 missiles they have shot at Israel. Israel did nothing for a solid month until the people in southern Israel told Bibi to get off his butt and do something about it. These Fireworks kill people and Israels Iron Dome is not 90 percent effective against them. You go live in south Israel and see if you like running to a bomb shelter every five minutes while not one person does jack about the problem.

RE: Israel vs Gaza - Are the Hamas Rockets really the cause of the IDF actions?

There was an interesting show on Russia Today yesterday called Crosstalk - Gates of Hell with guests Harry Fear, Norman Finkelstein, & Dan Pollak discussing the situation Gaza & Israel ...and what an eye opener!!




it was a great show...wish more western media was like this!

reply to post by Britguy


Go learn ancient history, visit Israel and see all the ancient Jewish historical sites that are a lot older than anything Islamic or Arab. Also take note of the quantity.

Palestine was never a nation or country, It was a huge REGION during biblical times. That Region encompassed what today is modern Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, parts of Saudi and Syria. By all historical right the Israeli land should expand and the Arabs should be forced into JORDAN!!! Just as the Brits had allocated for them, unfortunately they allowed Arabs to come work in Israel.

That is the truth and 100 percent historical fact!

A lot of anti Jews or should I say zionist (sarcasm),in ATS. So tell me anti Jews/Zionist (sarcasm again), what would be the solution to this problem? Should the Jews leave? How about they just bend over and allow these terrorist to continue to send rockets there way. Oh, but the Palestinians have a right. You do know the Jews were there first right? Whatever. So.. It's ok for them to kill innocent woman and children, who by the way are there targets. It's not Israels fault these cowards are hiding there ammo, missles etc in populated buildings. That's what they want. It makes them look like the victims. Anyways, don't know why I am waisting my time arguing with a bunch of Jew haters or should I say Zionist (sarcasm again). Well, bring on the attacks idiots! Shalom.

I was watching a bit of CNBC and they were commenting on it, along with video clip.
Problem was much like the "airstrike" on the car alleged to have been a Hamas leader,
it looked like a ground based blast. Not from the air.

So, it appears that the Israeli government is having their lapdog US media tout the story that
it's another stanza of Poor, poor pitiful me.
I don't buy it.
It may be land expansion, but I strongly suspect it has to do with Israel worried about the Fiscal Cliff
and their not getting all their usual billions allocated.
They can hold this crap up and say, but, but you can't cut our taxpayer funded money. See.

The sorry fact is it will work, too and when the budget cutting comes the "entitlements" to Israel will
probably not just be spared the ax, but, get a nice little bonus, to boot.

Let me bring some facts into this thread because there is soooo much wrong info floating around - although I'm not surprised...

Regarding Iron Dome - there are currently only 4 in service with one more expected to come online this week. It's range is limited and these cannot protect all of the areas under attack. It is estimated that it would take 11 or more for full coverage and even then, some missile can still get through... Even so, does that make it right for Hamas to try and kill Israeli's?

Originally posted by varikonniemi
The iron domes will not be used on anything smaller than an ICBM or similar since they are so expensive.

Who wins if your enemy lobs round after round of 1000$ rockets, and you shoot them down with something 10-100 times more expensive? Yeah.

Iron dome is being used against all types of missiles that Hamas has been launching - probably not mortars though. I believe the upcoming Arrow system is intended for ICBM's, in addition Israel currently has Patriot missiles launchers to take out ballistic missiles as well.

And much of what Hamas sends into Israel is NOT mortars, but missiles with up to 200 pounds of high explosive warheads... Just because Israel has bigger toys does not take away the destructive power of 200 lbs of explosives... I was just talking with a co-worker a few days ago, and not too long ago a missile landed close to where he lives - he said the crater was more than 10 meters across and very deep. I'm pretty sure that would ruin your day if it landed anywhere near you. Based on the location it must have been a Grad which packs 40 - 100 lbs of explosive. Now they have the Fajr-5 which can reach Tel Aviv and Jerusalem with 200 lbs of HE... Don't try to minimize this destructive power by calling them fireworks - it's simply a lie.

Israel is not slaughtering all the Palestinians in Gaza - they are doing everything they can to try and minimize civilian casualties. A few days ago they dropped leaflets over Gaza warning them to avoid Hamas and other terrorist organizations (Because of the impending air strikes of course). Why bother if you want to kill civilians. After conducting over 600 strikes in the last few days, 28 people in Gaza were killed, of which 16 were civilians. If Israel wanted to commit wholesale slaughter in Gaza, there would be thousands dead by now. They are using precision guided missiles for a reason, whereas Hamas could care less who gets killed with their launches - and hopes to kill as many Israeli's as possible.

Originally posted by nightbringr
reply to post by JiggyPotamus

 

You are incorrect.

Hamas is the democratically elected rulers of the Gaza Strip. The Palestinian Authority rules the West Bank.

Hamas declared war on Israel at their inception, so therefore Gaza is at war with Israel, making any Israeli incursion perfectly legal. They are reaping what they have sown.

edit on 16-11-2012 by nightbringr because: (no reason given)

Oh sure, they were "democratically elected" because they used intimidation, fear, and violence to win... They would shoot their political opponents in the legs and throw them off the roof of the nearest building. People can say the are the legitimate government of Gaza all you want, but at the end of the day they are simply terrorists.

Look at the West Bank, they are doing relatively well and living peacefully with Israel. Israel doesn't make airstrikes in the West Bank because they are not launching missiles into Israel. If Hamas didn't launch missiles into Israel, things would be quiet there too. I've seen it happen before - no attacks from either side for months.

Man, the two party system is encasing everyone huh.....

How about this.

Both sides are killing and indiscriminately targeting civilian areas thus causing civilian death. Both sides use missiles and mortar rounds. Both sides are capable of land assaults. One is much better prepared and armed than the other. The other makes up for it with shear amount of courage (you can't kill that which does not fear death.)
Now, no side here is better than the other. The land in question has been thrown to so many countries through its past its irreverent to even speak of it as "Jewish" land, as it was also at one point "Islamic" land. So, we must look at this morally and not pick the 'lesser of two evils', we must simply see it for what it is. A conflict of two sides both backed by countries that are not fond of each others backers that is destabilizing the region, killing their own people and may likely drag this into a regional war.

I say both sides are wrong in morals, ethics and principles. I say the whole situation is FUBAR and that we could learn a thing or two about the true core teachings of both religions in the region. Mainly, peace and love thy neighbor.

reply to post by AaronWilson


Actually, there is a big difference between the two.

Jews are not going around killing other Jews.

Muslims are going around killing other Muslims everyday.

The truth is, if every Jew was removed from the Middle East, along with Western influence, all you would see is a renewed war between the Sunnis and the Shiites. Just look at Iraq now that we're gone.

reply to post by Deetermined


That is a fair assessment. However, I simply disagree and say that is their business regardless of Israel being there or not. If they truly wanted to wipe each other off the map, Israel should not be as big a distraction than it evidently is. So by that, I get that Israel is good as it keeps the two Muslim groups killing Jews instead of each other and keeps the Jews divided between Orthodox and Zionist as per the stance on the Israeli state.

I still see 'lesser of two evils' choice in that. If we do that, they die, if we do this, those people die. Either way, at the end of the day, the only way out of that mess is learning the true face of the religions they preach. And that is peace and love thy neighbor.