Why the God premise is really REALLY BAD!

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
reply to post by jiggerj

 

I think you raise some good points. Although I would caution you against lumping "Religion" and "God" together as the former is man-made, while the latter (if God exists) is divine. I think the major problem for mankind has been organised religion, not belief in a God. One's personal belief in a God is fine; it's when people start trying to influence and scare others with their beliefs that things turn bad.

I'm hearing this a lot lately - shouldn't lump religion with a god. People don't fully comprehend that if a biblical god existed HE WOULD BE GOD! Supposedly, He spoke to Adam and Eve, to Noah, to Abraham. He sent angels to fix things in Sodom and Gomorrah. He sent an angel to inform Mary that she was with child. The spirit of Jesus spoke to Saul. Through religion we get clear evidence that a god has the power to communicate in words and actions with humans.

This means He has the power to communicate with those in the Middle East, to get them to stop abusing each other in His name. For Him to NOT communicate means one of several things:

1. He really doesn't have the power to communicate with humans, making Him a lesser god.
2. He can communicate, but He won't because He doesn't care.
3. He actually supports the atrocities that have been going on for 5,000 years.
4. Or, He doesn't exist.

It can communicate thru the pineal gland system if it is appropiate.

My viewpoint:
If it does not then it is because it is not in the best interest for the evolution of all humanity. While you are upset by the things that happen now god have to think of the whole picture for millions of years.

Humanity have been told in the golden rule what to do. Humanity have to grow up some time. It is like a parent with a child that keeps putting his hand on the stove and will not stop. After a while you get tired of saying the same thing over and over again and just have to fix the injuries that come up from the childs small minded behaviour.

This place is not meant to be perfect yeet. It is meant as a school for spirits with very limited understanding. Birth is never easy and this birth of a type one Civilization will take time.

reply to post by jiggerj


The majority of people in the world that pray to God and/or go to church, try to follow the basic moral rules placed upon them by the 10 Commandments, Don't Lie / Cheat / Steal / Kill / Covet / Curse, so on and so forth.

How is that bad? Government says don't do some of those things or go to jail, God says don't do any of those things or pay with your eternal soul. Which is the greater motivator?

Christians learn about how to go out of their way to be kind and merciful to their fellow man. Jesus' teachings are pretty clear about not answering violence with more violence, giving a beggar the shirt off your back, not condemning those whom society deems undesirable.
Those are wonderful and valuable teachings. There was never a government law that could replace what Jesus taught.

Originally posted by primus2012
reply to post by jiggerj

 

The majority of people in the world that pray to God and/or go to church, try to follow the basic moral rules placed upon them by the 10 Commandments, Don't Lie / Cheat / Steal / Kill / Covet / Curse, so on and so forth.

How is that bad? Government says don't do some of those things or go to jail, God says don't do any of those things or pay with your eternal soul. Which is the greater motivator?

Christians learn about how to go out of their way to be kind and merciful to their fellow man. Jesus' teachings are pretty clear about not answering violence with more violence, giving a beggar the shirt off your back, not condemning those whom society deems undesirable.
Those are wonderful and valuable teachings. There was never a government law that could replace what Jesus taught.

I do not believe cursing is an issue if your heart is in the right place and being upset and angry is neither good or bad. I will not limit myself or build up masks of supposed faked morality.

Stealing depends on need and the social structure around you not supplying you with what you need. The worst thieves in the world are people who steal by the system and law. Human law is not gods law. What you seed is what you get so Don't Lie / Cheat / Steal / Kill / Covet will just harm yourself but no one cannot learn. Sooner or later everyone gets it.

All of the worlds major religions did NOT start in the middle east. Us members of the western world are so quick to forget that the rest of the world has a history also. All of the western religions have started in the middle east, and cause violence. But we should not lump the rest of the worlds religions with them.

Buddhism's founding has no connection to the mid east. Hinduism'as founding has no connection to the mid east. Taoism's founding has no connection to the mid east.

In the case of Buddhism and Taoism, I think one would be hard pressed to directly attribute violence to them. Even if they have warrior monks .

Originally posted by SpearMint

Originally posted by slowisfast
What man has done in the name of their God, regardless how heinous, does not negate the possibility of one.

But, leave it to man to exploit others for their own gain, whether under the guise of religion, or not.

And you can't possibly believe that religion has added nothing of value to the world.
That's gotta be just ignorance talking.

What has it added? For a long, long time religion tried to silence scientific minds like Galileo, I can't think of anything it has given the world except grief.

Michael Faraday inspired to study nature by belief in god. Sir Isaac Newton inspired by belief in God. "The universe was “built for us by the Best and Most Orderly Workman of all." - Copernicus.

While religions of the world have suppressed science, those same scientists may very well have never done science, if not for religion.

Originally posted by backcase
reply to post by jiggerj

 

the country started off on a Christian foundation and has disowned Christ over the years. Excuse me if I ask where has that gotten us?

George Washington - Deist
Benjamin Franklin - Deist
Thomas Jefferson - Atheist

Original Pledge of Allegiance did not say "under God". Original Currency did not say "in God we trust".

... What kind of a foundation did this country have again? If you're talking about those witch burning original settlers, I think we can all agree that most Americans do not consider that time our "foundation"

rhetoric promoting another theism. my opinion.

Belief in a supernatural being has always led to the creation of religions.

My belief in the most natural, the supernatural has not led me to start or be part of any religion. nor will i ever. at most i will be part of a group helping people, you can call it what you want.

this government sure got a lot of things right. In under three hundred years we figured out that .......that children are the responsibility of everyone

"It takes a village to raise a child" .... supposedly thats an old African proverb and they have a bunch of versions of it in different languages

For FIVE THOUSAND YEARS their belief in a god has kept them wallowing in ignorance and hatred and intolerance and sheer brutal savagery

I think its not their belif in god that keeps them in their problems, its their inbelif and ignorance of god that keeps them there

Originally posted by network dude

You implied that ending religion= ending war.

I must ask: Are you religious? I ask this because the religious have a way of completely misreading texts and getting a message that just isn't there. At no point did I even hint that ending religion would end war. Ending religion would end wars based on religion. That's it. All other wars would continue because mankind is a warring species.

But, without religion man would no longer kill because:

God told me to.
God wants me to.
The good book supports it.

Originally posted by WanDash

These are really excellent points!
It is apparent that you are primarilly focused on the Christian version of "God" (including Old & New Testament examples)... Probably so because of some intimate knowledge/history therewith (or - simply because it is the predominant religion of your homeland)...
You identified angels and the "spirit of Jesus" as messengers used/sent to get very important messages across to these very important people.
As relates to me, and in line with many of the answers put forth by religious apologists, I am going to vote for option #2 - with a further qualification - "...because we aren't important enough...".
(Have you seen the prices, lately, for sending angels across the universe? Ungodly!)

LOL I hear the price of ectoplasm has gone through the roof!

Yes, I am familiar with the Christian religion, but aren't they all the same really? The names have changed while the atrocities and ignorant beliefs remain the same.

Originally posted by primus2012
reply to post by jiggerj

 

The majority of people in the world that pray to God and/or go to church, try to follow the basic moral rules placed upon them by the 10 Commandments, Don't Lie / Cheat / Steal / Kill / Covet / Curse, so on and so forth.

How is that bad? Government says don't do some of those things or go to jail, God says don't do any of those things or pay with your eternal soul. Which is the greater motivator?

Christians learn about how to go out of their way to be kind and merciful to their fellow man. Jesus' teachings are pretty clear about not answering violence with more violence, giving a beggar the shirt off your back, not condemning those whom society deems undesirable.
Those are wonderful and valuable teachings. There was never a government law that could replace what Jesus taught.

Are you serious? If a god had never been fabricated, would it have been okay to lie, cheat, and steal? Of course not. The ten commandments are useless.

As for Jesus, he is the perfect primer for teaching people how to be sheep. Turn the other cheek. Love your enemy. If someone steals your coat, give him your shirt too. Might as well let the government raid your house, take all of your belongings, rape your wife, abuse your kids and beat you to death. After all, Jesus teaches us to forgive, right?

Originally posted by Smashb0x

 

On another side note, to comment on something someone else said, I do feel like atheists want to be proven wrong. I feel they want to believe in a god, like any other religion and that it would be nice but the proof does not exist in physical form, and that's when spirituality comes into play. Which is much more strong ...but if you have no connection to that, it's much harder to attain but doesn't mean it's not possible.

This is why you can't always just go with your gut. I'm just poking you a little, you're OK. I think I get what you're saying, too. Let me try rephrasing it from my atheistic point of view.

Humans seem predisposed to believe in gods, an afterlife, and magic. I don't know of a single population, past or present, in which any of these beliefs are absent. Whether this represents a universal truth or a species-specific trait of the human animal, it is typically a part of the human experience. The process of shedding the religious beliefs of our childhoods tends to lead to a new perspective, one in which spirituality is not present.

It would be reasonable to assume an atheist might mourn, deep down, the loss of spirituality. But it just aint so. I've lost my tonsils, too. It was uncomfortable, but I have no doubt I'm better off without 'em.

I wish more people experienced their spirituality the way you do. In fact, I think more people are.

The atheist premise is really bad,

The secular premise is really bad,

God is good,

God is great,

Peace and good night

Originally posted by CashStronomer
reply to post by notquiteright

 

I actually had a conversation go this way very recently on a second date dinner. I shook her hand, thanked her for her time, paid the bill, & politely excused myself to my Buick.

Smart move, my friend. You saved yourself some aggravation there.

Originally posted by godlover25
The atheist premise is really bad,

The secular premise is really bad,

God is good,

God is great,

Peace and good night

Spoken like a true brainwashed cult member.

There are myriad examples throughout history, but all one needs to look at is the Middle-East now for why the 'god premise' is really bad (/ dangerous).

Originally posted by notquiteright
Well said. You get a star and flag for that. I have often said to my wife (who is Catholic) that it's not just that I do not believe, I actually think it is harmful to society. She has told me it's god first, then the family. I think that is absurd. Nothing before my family.

Agreed. Any god that is conceited enough to expect people to choose his silly rules over their own friends and family can go eat a bag of ****. I'd rather spend eternity in a lake of fire than pander to such an arrogant entity if he were in fact real.

Originally posted by Xaphan

Originally posted by notquiteright
Well said. You get a star and flag for that. I have often said to my wife (who is Catholic) that it's not just that I do not believe, I actually think it is harmful to society. She has told me it's god first, then the family. I think that is absurd. Nothing before my family.

Agreed. Any god that is conceited enough to expect people to choose his silly rules over their own friends and family can go eat a bag of ****. I'd rather spend eternity in a lake of fire than pander to such an arrogant entity if he were in fact real.

What rules are you talking about specifically? How does God's 'rules' influence one to choose him over their friends and family? Which god are you talking about?

Originally posted by ihavenoaccount

Originally posted by r2d246

After that I was overwhelmed with peace. I've had peace ever since as I'm not afraid to die (for the most part), and in this life I'm in tune with the most powerful force there is to guide me threw life.

Also we're all human. Even christians get nervious about all this subject matter. to be human it to have our basic inherient survial mechanisms working and fearing and resisting death. But the basic idea that the universe and our lives had to come from somewhere needs answering. The most logical and realistic concept is the Christian God. If he showed himself he would ruine our free will, destroy our freedom. So that would defeat the purpose of why he made the universe and man. Man was given free will and space to enjoy life. that's how he likes it. But he also wants us to get to know him and build a loving relationship with him. Anyway that's it.

That's where we're different, man. I know you probably think I toss and turn at night, worrying about death and whether my life's slipping away, but I don't. Only after I dropped the faith did I stop fearing the unknown. Now it's an exciting adventure, and I don't mind when it starts!

We don't need an answer, specifically, it's just awesome to work it out. The big difference, in my opinion and nothing else, between natural science and supernatural faith is that the former deals with questions they know they might never answer, and the latter deals with answers they dare not question.

Personally, the Christian God doesn't sound logical to me, at all. In fact, there are Christians who agree that their belief needs to be based purely on that, and logic is irrelevant. But it depends on the person, I guess.

1) wanted to let them know the bottom line, which they already know but needed a reminder of.

Sorry, but I have to disagree completely on this. This is why people stereotype Christians as pushy, loud-mouthed and arrogant. There's always a nice way of saying things. and being nice gets you further than you think.

edit on 17-11-2012 by ihavenoaccount because: (no reason given)

Well it sounds like you know what kind of life you want then. And nothing will convince you otherwise.

1) I agree. And I do use different approaches. Depends on the situation. I could be wrong in my approach. But it you want to hit a ball you got to swing a club. It might be a bad swing but at least it's a swing. And it has NOTHING to do with my swing.....

It works like this. God will tell me what to write on the odd occation. Most of the time it's just my own pathetic jabbering. But the odd time God directs it. Then what will happen is someone will read it. Then at that moment they read it God has choosen that person. God will make that message ring home to that person in a strong emotional way. And if God has choosen the person then they won't be able to resist. They'll accept and get to know him. God works in mysterious ways. My brother at age 7 found a bible in the garbage on his way home from school. He brought it to my mother. She started reading. That lead so many people to Christ probably dozens as a result. He can use his power threw anything he wants. So it doesn't matter how convincing I am. I don't have to be.

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by network dude

You implied that ending religion= ending war.

I must ask: Are you religious? I ask this because the religious have a way of completely misreading texts and getting a message that just isn't there. At no point did I even hint that ending religion would end war. Ending religion would end wars based on religion. That's it. All other wars would continue because mankind is a warring species.

But, without religion man would no longer kill because:

God told me to.
God wants me to.
The good book supports it.

no, I am not religious. I do believe in God and have no doubts about his existence. I got that impression out of your OP. Which is why I responded like I did. The we agree on that. Sorry to misunderstand.

Originally posted by renegadeloser

Originally posted by SpearMint

Originally posted by slowisfast
What man has done in the name of their God, regardless how heinous, does not negate the possibility of one.

But, leave it to man to exploit others for their own gain, whether under the guise of religion, or not.

And you can't possibly believe that religion has added nothing of value to the world.
That's gotta be just ignorance talking.

What has it added? For a long, long time religion tried to silence scientific minds like Galileo, I can't think of anything it has given the world except grief.

Michael Faraday inspired to study nature by belief in god. Sir Isaac Newton inspired by belief in God. "The universe was “built for us by the Best and Most Orderly Workman of all." - Copernicus.

While religions of the world have suppressed science, those same scientists may very well have never done science, if not for religion.

It is not the religions/views per say that are wrong. It is the belief that they are totally right and perfect. It becomes a stupid grouping thing and just brings duality. And duality (opposing views that cannot find a common ground ) is always the problem. From my point of view religion and spirituality is supposed to get you to see past duality and become like Jesus, Buddha, Krishna, Gandi, Dalai Lama. And keeping on eating the stupid apple of duality over and over will not get you home or make you lose that small minded ego. When it comes to great minds the normaly can after a while look beyond human dogma and see god for what it truely is.

"The universe was “built for us by the Best and Most Orderly Workman of all." You just know that this person can see the order in the chaos that most of us only have little clues at.

If I was born on an alien world with three legs and nine arms I would still have god looking over me but would probably have very different views/religions and different names for the teachers that had been on that planet.