Why the God premise is really REALLY BAD!

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posted on Nov, 16 2012 @ 11:30 PM
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If you chop off the head of God, it leaves man on top.Thank you , but no thanks. I think ill take my chances with god.




posted on Nov, 16 2012 @ 11:38 PM
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Originally posted by Smashb0x
reply to post by jiggerj
 


Atheism is just as bad as having a religion.

God doesn't exist because of religion, religion exists because of God.
People know something beyond us exists as our creator.
Not knowing how to explain it, in making things more comfortable, They need a story to back it up.
Humans like to think they know things, that's one of our biggest problems.

Knowledge doesn't actually exist as anything but another word, like God. And we try to understand it by putting words into it. However, we cannot even begin to portray with our vocabulary the way it actually is beyond this planet.

Knowledge is always changing, therefore making whatever we think we know, something that will eventually change. In truth meaning, we don't actually know.

Atheist believe they know nothing exists as a god, if they actually "knew," what was good for them, they wouldn't think they know anything, meaninging they wouldnt have a disbelief in god, just an acceptance that everything just is what it is because it just is, we don't know much. And we dont deserve to know why.


This was a well-stated reply...in most regards (& imo)
I don't, though, know that I agree with your description (definition?) of atheists...being that they "believe they know"...
Some do - that is true.
Hopefully we agree that "belief" is a stance or choice.
If I hold an apple, I don't have to believe that I am holding an apple -- I know that I am holding an apple, and in most cases, if you are there to witness the same...you will, likewise, know that I am holding an apple.
As far as I know, though, the only evidence of "God" that has been presented in my life...could be explained with more possibilities than simply "God"...
Thus - for me to discount one theory over another - I must make a leap of faith (past the possibilities that suggest otherwise) and choose to believe the "God" answer over the others.
Because I do not "believe" in "God" does not mean that I do not accept that "God" is possible. And does not mean that I choose to "believe" "there is no God".
I bet that most atheists, when arguing against the "belief in God"...are in fact, hoping to be proved wrong.
Most religious apologists, however, assume a warring posture when presented with such "questions"... (again, imo)



posted on Nov, 17 2012 @ 12:15 AM
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Originally posted by r2d246

Besides the question again is why are you so obcessed with God, creation, and religion? I don't get it. Why are most atheists completely and utterly obcessed with God? more so that most Christians even. They should just become Christians since they'd make excellent fundimentalists since there obcession is so strong. ...Perhaps the hope that somehow being able to disprove it will save them from hell or death. Get real you die as an atheist and you go direct to hell, you've been warned.



Why is he so obsessed? Probably because of what you said at the bottom of your post right there. It really isn't very nice, at all. Couldn't you have the manners to argue diplomatically without resorting to such brutish threats? It really is off-putting and rather rude to boot. I know this whole 'rebuking' thing is all the rage these days, but isn't there a more polite way to go about it?

But if you want to know why so many atheists are apparently so obsessed, I can offer an anecdote if that should suffice. I was brought up Catholic by parents who definitely weren't by practice, though my grandmother was Biblical to the core. Whenever I had a question about religion, my atheist-for-all-purposes dad would tell me to go ask her. It helped... at first.

I was about six, sitting in my room after being grounded for something or other. My mind wandered, and I started thinking about death, haven't recently discovered there were people who weren't Christian, Hindu or even anything. They just believed that you died. That was weird, but then I thought about it. No one had ever seen what happens after you die, according to the encyclopedias in by bookcase. Not doctors, and not even priests. So what would happen?

After closing my eyes and trying to imagine nothingness, it became clear that was impossible because I could perceive 'black', and was aware of my... being. Scary. But I thought "nah, God's taking me to heaven so it's okay! I think he's cool, and I'm not really bad." But then I thought about all the times I stole cookies from the biscuit tin. Fire and brimstone. Forever. But then who had enough evidence for it?

I started doubting from then, and struggled with it up until around eighteen. For most of that, I was looking for ways to convince myself that it was all real, but it wasn't adding up. That couldn't happen, because there was still the chance it was right and what if I missed it? Fire and brimstone. Forever. Got over it eventually though, and although I was initially very upset with the Christians around me who did try to guilt me into conviction, I got over that too, because you can never know a person completely by worldview. There's so much more to us all than that.

I don't know jiggerj at all. I'm new to the forum and even if we'd spoken on here a lot, it wouldn't beat face-to-face conversation. But it's likely that he and other atheists may shared my situation in a way. Some of them are angered, others amused, and several simply puzzled by those who do subscribe to this 'God premise'. Because many have personal history with it (usually not so fond), they can get a little touchy when believers try to impose their scriptural/spiritually-informed views on legal and social issues, official explanations for certain phenomena or just vehemently proclaim that their god's 'word' is the only truth, and all others are inspired by a despicable, sadistic bestial entity. It gets old after a while.



posted on Nov, 17 2012 @ 12:17 AM
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Originally posted by jiggerj

No, sir, don't YOU be naive. Some people help others in the name of a god, while others just help out of the kindness of their heart. We don't need a god for this. People create beautiful art - we don't need a god for this. Poetry and prose, nope, no god required.

Do YOU need a god to tell you to love and help your neighbor?

Culture through god, well, you're 100% right on that account, which is why the middle east is full of ignorant savages.


Now we're getting somewhere. Yes, people can do and create great things apart from doing them in the name of God. That's not at all what I'm saying. You asked what good things has 'Religion' added. I simply answered you. To deny the vast amount of artwork, music, architecture and literature that has been inspired by man's search for understanding of 'God', would be foolish.

As far as your direct question to me? No, I do not need a god to tell me to love and help my neighbor, it's obvious to me, an intrinsic part of my nature. But I do believe that God is the reason that desire to love and help my neighbor exists in the first place. Humans don't help others out of some detached, unemotional, ethical sense of obligation...they tend to help because their heart breaks for plight of people and they feel a pull at their heart to help in whatever way they can. I believe that, whether one chooses to acknowledge it or not, God is the reason humans desire to show kindness to others, to love others, to choose to be selfless. For choosing that path and those virtues are antithetical to the survival of the fittest mentality it would have taken to get us here in the first place.

As to that last part of your reply, I never said culture through God, I said Religion/God has added to culture.
Cheers



posted on Nov, 17 2012 @ 03:00 AM
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Do i believe in god, no. May there be one? Doubt it, but who knows right?
One thing we do know is religion has brought upon many negative things to society, to many to list but here is a few.
Inquisition
Crusades
Holocaust
Native American lose of cultural identity
9/11
Abortion clinic bombings
Galileo's execution
Socrates execution
Catholic priest pedophilia (this one happens to damn often) ((and religions try to cover it up >__< *scratches head*
0+0=1 yup sounds about right.



posted on Nov, 17 2012 @ 04:44 AM
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reply to post by jiggerj
 


Our problem with god/allah/brahman/reality conciousness/"The ONE that includes all things" is that we know to little to prove it fully so we create views about it that is not 100% right. There are people who seek in all sources(religions) and find a connection to something more/on the other side. And most people do not understand what they read and cannot question it but are only believing (having faith) what they are being told about "god" and believe faith is enought. Those that feel the connection do no longer have faith but knowledge of something more and will drop faith to really examine what is.

Give it a 100 more years and we will have total knowledge of chakras(or whatever they are) and how to EN-LIGHT-EN a spirit/mind/body complex.

The problem is not "god". The problem is the students who are to small minded to wake up and get caught up in duality and indoctrination because the student do not understand what is written. Jesus says exactly the same nondualistic thruth as Buddha and Krishna for the people who can seek with an opened mind not brainwashed with duality. But then it does not help that Paul (the dualistic apostle) was allowed to write anything in the bible. He really screwed up everything for those who belive all that is written in the bible. He truely was an anti-christ (anti christ conciousness/gnosis) and only cause fear.

From Yodas own mouth
. Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.

Do not care where the message comes from. Evaluate the message to see if it is true/divine and based on higher ideals or based on views.

Time to wake up?

Foo Fighters - Wheels - Lyrics


METALLICA - NOTHING ELSE MATTERS with LYRICS


Katy Perry - Wide Awake Lyrics


Phil collins - In the air tonight


Peter Gabriel - Solsbury Hill lyrics


Linkin Park - New Divide lyrics


SYSTEM OF A DOWN (SOAD) - Aerials + Lyrics
edit on 17-11-2012 by LittleByLittle because: Spellchecking
edit on 17-11-2012 by LittleByLittle because: Spellchecking



posted on Nov, 17 2012 @ 04:57 AM
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Originally posted by Theophorus
If you chop off the head of God, it leaves man on top.Thank you , but no thanks. I think ill take my chances with god.


You cannot chop gods head off if you do not also chop your own head off. If you harm the whole you harm the part.



posted on Nov, 17 2012 @ 05:01 AM
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reply to post by jiggerj
 


I do not belive believing in a god is evil. But I do agree that the religions need to evolve to the next step and stop playing around with duality viewpoints.



posted on Nov, 17 2012 @ 05:06 AM
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reply to post by EnochWasRight
 


Knowledge is neither good or bad, it just is. You ate the fruit of duality and disconnected form everything and created opposite viewpoint of what is good or bad and started to whack each other over the head because of those viewpoints. And you keep giving the same fruit to you children. That is the true sin of the previous generations.



posted on Nov, 17 2012 @ 05:25 AM
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Originally posted by Dark Ghost
reply to post by jiggerj
 


I think you raise some good points. Although I would caution you against lumping "Religion" and "God" together as the former is man-made, while the latter (if God exists) is divine. I think the major problem for mankind has been organised religion, not belief in a God. One's personal belief in a God is fine; it's when people start trying to influence and scare others with their beliefs that things turn bad.


I'm hearing this a lot lately - shouldn't lump religion with a god. People don't fully comprehend that if a biblical god existed HE WOULD BE GOD! Supposedly, He spoke to Adam and Eve, to Noah, to Abraham. He sent angels to fix things in Sodom and Gomorrah. He sent an angel to inform Mary that she was with child. The spirit of Jesus spoke to Saul. Through religion we get clear evidence that a god has the power to communicate in words and actions with humans.

This means He has the power to communicate with those in the Middle East, to get them to stop abusing each other in His name. For Him to NOT communicate means one of several things:

1. He really doesn't have the power to communicate with humans, making Him a lesser god.
2. He can communicate, but He won't because He doesn't care.
3. He actually supports the atrocities that have been going on for 5,000 years.
4. Or, He doesn't exist.



posted on Nov, 17 2012 @ 06:12 AM
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Originally posted by ihavenoaccount

Originally posted by r2d246

Besides the question again is why are you so obcessed with God, creation, and religion? I don't get it. Why are most atheists completely and utterly obcessed with God? more so that most Christians even. They should just become Christians since they'd make excellent fundimentalists since there obcession is so strong. ...Perhaps the hope that somehow being able to disprove it will save them from hell or death. Get real you die as an atheist and you go direct to hell, you've been warned.



Why is he so obsessed? Probably because of what you said at the bottom of your post right there. It really isn't very nice, at
imagine nothingness, it becmply puzzled by those who do subscribe to this 'God premise'. Because many have personal history with it (usually not so fond), they can get a little touchy when believers try to impose their scriptural/spiritually-informed views on legal and social issues, official explanations for certain phenomena or just vehemently proclaim that their god's 'word' is the only truth, and all others are inspired by a despicable, sadistic bestial entity. It gets old after a while.


1) wanted to let them know the bottom line, which they already know but needed a reminder of.

2) People are so brainwashed when it comes to this idea of goodness. The bible declares "all of your rightousness is as filthy rags". It's Christs work at the cross that saves you. It's his work, not your work. You can never be good enough. Even after becoming a Christian you'll still sin every day. But by accepting Christ you're sins are covered, past, present and future. You can bow by choice now, or he'll force you to bow later. Better bow and accept now by choice while you still have the chance to. If you're forced to bow your one of the ones that will be going to hell. The bible says you will bow and confess Christ on judgement day. He'll force you to if you don't do it now. This is all in the bible.

3) Well it's human nature to be confused, have doubts etc etc. But at some point you just got to grow a pair and realize that you can't be a child forever. You got to grow up and take responsibility and make some serious adult decisions. And if you choose Christ great. If not that's up to you but it comes with it's own set of responsibility, now and in the afterlife.

Okay I had a similar thing happen. I was 5. I didn't know about God. I one day realized that as humans we eventually die. When it dawned on me that I was gonna die, I was with my parents in the van. We were driving. I starting crying profusely. The reason is I thought that after you die that's the end of your life. I didn't understand there was an afterlife. then around age 7 I began to realize there was God which is where the universe came from and ultimately who I'm going to meet up with. After that I was overwhelmed with peace. I've had peace ever since as I'm not afraid to die (for the most part), and in this life I'm in tune with the most powerful force there is to guide me threw life.

Also we're all human. Even christians get nervious about all this subject matter. to be human it to have our basic inherient survial mechanisms working and fearing and resisting death. But the basic idea that the universe and our lives had to come from somewhere needs answering. The most logical and realistic concept is the Christian God. If he showed himself he would ruine our free will, destroy our freedom. So that would defeat the purpose of why he made the universe and man. Man was given free will and space to enjoy life. that's how he likes it. But he also wants us to get to know him and build a loving relationship with him. Anyway that's it.




posted on Nov, 17 2012 @ 06:21 AM
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Originally posted by jiggerj
I'm hearing this a lot lately - shouldn't lump religion with a god. People don't fully comprehend that if a biblical god existed HE WOULD BE GOD! Supposedly, He spoke to Adam and Eve, to Noah, to Abraham. He sent angels to fix things in Sodom and Gomorrah. He sent an angel to inform Mary that she was with child. The spirit of Jesus spoke to Saul. Through religion we get clear evidence that a god has the power to communicate in words and actions with humans.


But what if those writing these biblical texts had ulterior motives for spreading religion - such as raising money and using religion as a form of control? (Perhaps what these scholars/prophets claim as God's word is their own delusional beliefs that they made up.) Maybe the descriptions of a Divine Creator as found in the mainstream religions are false, including negative attributes such as jealousy.


This means He has the power to communicate with those in the Middle East, to get them to stop abusing each other in His name. For Him to NOT communicate means one of several things:

1. He really doesn't have the power to communicate with humans, making Him a lesser god.
2. He can communicate, but He won't because He doesn't care.
3. He actually supports the atrocities that have been going on for 5,000 years.
4. Or, He doesn't exist.


A fifth option could be that God does not intervene in his creations in the physical world (and never has) but rather intervenes in our spiritual journey to connect with the Source.



posted on Nov, 17 2012 @ 08:06 AM
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reply to post by Dark Ghost
 





(Perhaps what these scholars/prophets claim as God's word is their own delusional beliefs that they made up.) Maybe the descriptions of a Divine Creator as found in the mainstream religions are false, including negative attributes such as jealousy.


Sooo, a god introduced himself to mankind, and then mankind made up a book of complete lies on Him? I don't think so. It's either a god was made up, and a book of fictional accounts followed, or...?... lol No, that's it.



posted on Nov, 17 2012 @ 08:28 AM
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Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by network dude
reply to post by jiggerj
 


So it's your belief that if religion was gone, all the greedy people would stop being greedy? No more wars?

Delusional is a term that makes sense here.

I don't care for organized religion either, but to think it wouldn't be replaced by some new power is just wrong.



Delusional? Have you any idea how many people would be alive today if they hadn't been killed solely in the name of a god? Yes, people kill for greed, power, even for food. Some kill simply because they are insane. We can't stop these murders because they are a problem that exists in the here and now. But to kill or be killed for a god? That is a total waste of life.


You implied that ending religion= ending war. I don't believe that for a second. End holy wars maybe, but there will always bee enough greed to perpetuate somebody wanting to take someone else's marbles.

I do whole heartily agree that killing in the name of God is the stupidest thing I have ever heard, and organized religion is closer to organized crime than it is God.



posted on Nov, 17 2012 @ 10:05 AM
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Originally posted by jiggerj
I'm hearing this a lot lately - shouldn't lump religion with a god. People don't fully comprehend that if a biblical god existed HE WOULD BE GOD! Supposedly, He spoke to Adam and Eve, to Noah, to Abraham. He sent angels to fix things in Sodom and Gomorrah. He sent an angel to inform Mary that she was with child. The spirit of Jesus spoke to Saul. Through religion we get clear evidence that a god has the power to communicate in words and actions with humans.

This means He has the power to communicate with those in the Middle East, to get them to stop abusing each other in His name. For Him to NOT communicate means one of several things:

1. He really doesn't have the power to communicate with humans, making Him a lesser god.
2. He can communicate, but He won't because He doesn't care.
3. He actually supports the atrocities that have been going on for 5,000 years.
4. Or, He doesn't exist.

These are really excellent points!
It is apparent that you are primarilly focused on the Christian version of "God" (including Old & New Testament examples)... Probably so because of some intimate knowledge/history therewith (or - simply because it is the predominant religion of your homeland)...
You identified angels and the "spirit of Jesus" as messengers used/sent to get very important messages across to these very important people.
As relates to me, and in line with many of the answers put forth by religious apologists, I am going to vote for option #2 - with a further qualification - "...because we aren't important enough...".
(Have you seen the prices, lately, for sending angels across the universe? Ungodly!)



posted on Nov, 17 2012 @ 10:23 AM
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reply to post by notquiteright
 


I actually had a conversation go this way very recently on a second date dinner. I shook her hand, thanked her for her time, paid the bill, & politely excused myself to my Buick.



posted on Nov, 17 2012 @ 11:15 AM
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reply to post by LittleByLittle
 


"Those that feel the connection do no longer have faith but knowledge of something more and will drop faith to really examine what is."

That is basically where I am at. I do not claim any religion or real belief system. I do feel beliefs are a stance and choice, one reason we are all so different


I have gotten to the point in my belief that, anything I was ever taught or told to be true is not actually that. I have had to start piecing things together myself and you are right, I am in search of what this connection really is.

I'm not here to make anyone feel bad for what they believe, I used to have my own belief system. It's all changed and practically doesn't exist but that is literally because I have realized how much we really don't know or have access to knowing. I didn't drop my faith, I still believe that all things connect as one at the center of all that is, I just feel silly saying prayers now .....not that I don't think they are being listened to but I feel like in a sense I am praying to myself. My stance is somewhat hard to explain to others, which is why at this point I usually don't. I can't fully explain or support the things I believe, just that I do because if my experiences. I probably won't ever know, like most people. That doesn't stop me from searching, humans are funny in that way.

On another side note, to comment on something someone else said, I do feel like atheists want to be proven wrong. I feel they want to believe in a god, like any other religion and that it would be nice but the proof does not exist in physical form, and that's when spirituality comes into play. Which is much more strong ...but if you have no connection to that, it's much harder to attain but doesn't mean it's not possible.

I have an overall acceptance of things, even accepting that I just don't know. It takes a lot to just "know" and live accordingly ......acceptance is key.



posted on Nov, 17 2012 @ 11:41 AM
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Originally posted by Smashb0x

"Those that feel the connection do no longer have faith but knowledge of something more and will drop faith to really examine what is."

That is basically where I am at. I do not claim any religion or real belief system. I do feel beliefs are a stance and choice, one reason we are all so different


I have gotten to the point in my belief that, anything I was ever taught or told to be true is not actually that. I have had to start piecing things together myself and you are right, I am in search of what this connection really is.

I'm not here to make anyone feel bad for what they believe, I used to have my own belief system. It's all changed and practically doesn't exist but that is literally because I have realized how much we really don't know or have access to knowing. I didn't drop my faith, I still believe that all things connect as one at the center of all that is, I just feel silly saying prayers now .....not that I don't think they are being listened to but I feel like in a sense I am praying to myself. My stance is somewhat hard to explain to others, which is why at this point I usually don't. I can't fully explain or support the things I believe, just that I do because if my experiences. I probably won't ever know, like most people. That doesn't stop me from searching, humans are funny in that way.

On another side note, to comment on something someone else said, I do feel like atheists want to be proven wrong. I feel they want to believe in a god, like any other religion and that it would be nice but the proof does not exist in physical form, and that's when spirituality comes into play. Which is much more strong ...but if you have no connection to that, it's much harder to attain but doesn't mean it's not possible.

I have an overall acceptance of things, even accepting that I just don't know. It takes a lot to just "know" and live accordingly ......acceptance is key.

Wow - thanks for the insight.
To me, it appears that you are quite level-headed...and honest.
Not much to add (am in agreement with most of what you stated...and you stated it much better than I).



posted on Nov, 17 2012 @ 11:50 AM
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Originally posted by r2d246

After that I was overwhelmed with peace. I've had peace ever since as I'm not afraid to die (for the most part), and in this life I'm in tune with the most powerful force there is to guide me threw life.

Also we're all human. Even christians get nervious about all this subject matter. to be human it to have our basic inherient survial mechanisms working and fearing and resisting death. But the basic idea that the universe and our lives had to come from somewhere needs answering. The most logical and realistic concept is the Christian God. If he showed himself he would ruine our free will, destroy our freedom. So that would defeat the purpose of why he made the universe and man. Man was given free will and space to enjoy life. that's how he likes it. But he also wants us to get to know him and build a loving relationship with him. Anyway that's it.



That's where we're different, man. I know you probably think I toss and turn at night, worrying about death and whether my life's slipping away, but I don't. Only after I dropped the faith did I stop fearing the unknown. Now it's an exciting adventure, and I don't mind when it starts!

We don't need an answer, specifically, it's just awesome to work it out. The big difference, in my opinion and nothing else, between natural science and supernatural faith is that the former deals with questions they know they might never answer, and the latter deals with answers they dare not question.

Personally, the Christian God doesn't sound logical to me, at all. In fact, there are Christians who agree that their belief needs to be based purely on that, and logic is irrelevant. But it depends on the person, I guess.


1) wanted to let them know the bottom line, which they already know but needed a reminder of.


Sorry, but I have to disagree completely on this. This is why people stereotype Christians as pushy, loud-mouthed and arrogant. There's always a nice way of saying things. and being nice gets you further than you think.
edit on 17-11-2012 by ihavenoaccount because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 17 2012 @ 12:27 PM
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If (mostly) they are not pushy, arrogant, or what have you..., then why does (God?) always feel the need to argue my beliefs? I don't care what anyone's personal belief is, just keep it to yourself, theirs no profit in selling it, save the sales pitch & the effort for a promotion at work, ya know, something real, that ya can actually use...





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