The atheists monopoly of true morality....

Originally posted by octotom
reply to post by PerfectAnomoly

 

we are just good people because we know it is the right thing to do....

No, you're just people that have been influenced by the Christian values that have influenced Western civilization.

We really don't know how right or wrong you are.
I can respect that you may be partially right.
But it still doesn't mean that is proof of a god.
We are also influenced by many other things as well.
OK, here's a star.

Originally posted by noxvita83

Originally posted by MrXYZ

In short, SOCIETY imposes morals, not religion

But what people don't realize is with the several billion people in the world, a country like the United States has several societies in it. Society is merely a group. Yes, Christians have their own society, Atheists their own. And then you have the society which is the melting pot that is all of the United States. And we gather our morals from each sect we're a part of.

Which explains why morals change over time...whether religious fundamentalists want that or not.

Originally posted by octotom
reply to post by PerfectAnomoly

 

we are just good people because we know it is the right thing to do....

No, you're just people that have been influenced by the Christian values that have influenced Western civilization.

Was the early western civilization influenced by christian values? You know, the values that led the natives of America to be slaughtered, and their land stolen from them? Or the values that led people from Africa into slavery in America? Or perhaps the values that caused many innocent people to be burned at the stake after being accused of being witches? Values like that? Or the western values of present day?

Why did those values evolve? Weren't those western people in earlier times christian as well? Didn't they follow the same christian god that is worshiped today? Why has morality changed since then?

reply to post by Hydroman

I would agree more with you if you changed the word "christian" to "biblical" because christians will say that the Old Testament laws don't have to be followed (though they were condoned by the same god).

There's a ton of stuff in the new testament that we don't follow anymore either. It's not just Christianity though, you can apply the same to Islam and every single other religion on the planet. Hell, my Muslim friends over here drink booze

Why? Because SOCIETY says it's ok from a moral standpoint

reply to post by PerfectAnomoly


THE COUNTER ARGUEMENT:

have no doctrine.. no guidelines... we are just good people because we know it is the right thing to do....

Who is "we"? Without an established organization, you can't necessarily speak for every single atheist out there, can you?

.... they are forced into doing good things by their religious doctrine... blackmailed if you will.... or they will never gain access to the "next level"...

...forced.... blackmailed...

I'd like to understand the evolution of this thought process. How did you determine that religious people are forced/blackmailed into doing good things?

Poeple that follow any religion...

Which religions are you basing that on?

And what about stupid people who don't have the critical thinking skills that you and I possess, that are having kids and aren't sure how to raise them to be right, without the threat of religious consequences.

I was raised a Hindu (which I have been told my numerous religious zealots that, Hinduism isn't really a religion, but a way of life - which I believe is a topic for another thread that I'm too lazy to start now), and until I was old enough to question religious doctrine maturely, I must say, being brainwashed into believing that my negative actions will have consequences in my next life, kept me on the straight and narrow.

Now I'm leaning more toward agnosticism. I can't believe in a mythical god like being if I haven't seen direct evidence of such beliefs. However I do believe there is an underlying, all encompassing, regulating force/energy, entity that keeps everything balanced. And that all major established religions all (either) ignore it or misinterpret it as a god, in order to maintain their systemic hierarchy.

I therefore propose that atheists pratice true morality... not morality born out of threats and promises....

Discuss..

Atheists? True morality? This is how religious turmoil begins. With the belief that one person's/group's/culture's/society's ethos are more righteous than the others'.

Why can't agnostics practice truer morality?

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

Nobody likes to be lied to, cheated on, fooled, scammed, betrayed, disrespected, outcast, enslaved, taken advantage of, etc. etc. etc. So what's wrong with people writing it in stone? If the outcome is positive, I say let religious people have their Sunday meetings. Most of them (sad, but true) don't have the intellectual capacity to understand life without religion.


SG.

Originally posted by MrXYZ
reply to post by Hydroman

 

I would agree more with you if you changed the word "christian" to "biblical" because christians will say that the Old Testament laws don't have to be followed (though they were condoned by the same god).

There's a ton of stuff in the new testament that we don't follow anymore either. It's not just Christianity though, you can apply the same to Islam and every single other religion on the planet. Hell, my Muslim friends over here drink booze

Why? Because SOCIETY says it's ok from a moral standpoint

No argument from me.

Originally posted by sumgai
Atheists? True morality? This is how religious turmoil begins. With the belief that one person's/group's/culture's/society's ethos are more righteous than the others'.

Why can't agnostics practice truer morality?

I think that the OP's point is that those who don't believe in deities, yet behave morally, do so because it is merely the right thing to do, without fear of punishment or promise of reward.

On the other hand, believers behave morally because they are asked to by their deity, resulting in punishment if they do not do so, or possible reward if they do.

Originally posted by noxvita83

Originally posted by MrXYZ

In short, SOCIETY imposes morals, not religion

But what people don't realize is with the several billion people in the world, a country like the United States has several societies in it. Society is merely a group. Yes, Christians have their own society, Atheists their own. And then you have the society which is the melting pot that is all of the United States. And we gather our morals from each sect we're a part of.

Very true, but I think we also need to be aware of what other people's ideologies are in comparison with our own.
If everything that everyone says is right, correct, and should not be questioned nor defied, how about these guys:
Ten Most Notorious Suicide Cults in History
Should this generation be aware of some of the harmful side-effects of some ideologies?
Can anyone think of any other beliefs there are out there?
..........the Georgia Guidestones or Raelians who flew their freak flag over NY?

Why should we as humans depend upon some being, who we've never seen or heard, to direct us in morality?

We, as citizens of Earth, should come together and work out our differences and figure out what is best for us as a species. Not just a nation by nation thing, but a species thing.

Is it moral for me to pay a monthly fee to play video games in my basement while children across the world are starving and wondering where they are going to sleep tonight? Is it moral for perfectly healthy women to spend loads of money to undergo plastic surgery to make themselves look better in appearance when parents in other places are selling their children into sex slavery just to make some money to survive? Is it moral for christians to donate vast sums of money, hoping for some reward of prosperity in return, all the while padding the pockets of preachers and building extraordinarily huge sanctuaries when there are people in this world who would be happy just to have a hot meal?


What is wrong with us as a species? Why can't we fix this?

Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by octotom
reply to post by PerfectAnomoly

 

we are just good people because we know it is the right thing to do....

No, you're just people that have been influenced by the Christian values that have influenced Western civilization.

Was the early western civilization influenced by christian values? You know, the values that led the natives of America to be slaughtered, and their land stolen from them? Or the values that led people from Africa into slavery in America? Or perhaps the values that caused many innocent people to be burned at the stake after being accused of being witches? Values like that? Or the western values of present day?

Why did those values evolve? Weren't those western people in earlier times christian as well? Didn't they follow the same christian god that is worshiped today? Why has morality changed since then?

Not too much, the Church has pretty much pulverized people either through spreading their baloney ideology or poisoning their popes who don't puppetize from the start... many people have recognized the significance of the times pertaining to prophecy.

Originally posted by Wonders
Not too much, the Church has pretty much pulverized people either through spreading their baloney ideology or poisoning their popes who don't puppetize from the start... many people have recognized the significance of the times pertaining to prophecy.

What times exist now that haven't always existed?

"Morality" is a very divisive word.

What was considered "moral" 2000 years ago, is not today. And so on down the line it goes.

It's a human word that has no meaning other than the present tense that it's used in.

Even the animal kingdom knows what's in its own best interest for survival mode.

Originally posted by PerfectAnomoly
A thought ocurred to me today....

Poeple that follow any religion need their religion to tell them how to behave, how to treat others, and what to believe/think.... they are forced into doing good things by their religious doctrine... blackmailed if you will.... or they will never gain access to the "next level"...

Atheists however, have no doctrine.. no guidelines... we are just good people because we know it is the right thing to do.... we don't need to be blackmailed into doing good..... common sense and reason dictate that it is the best thing to do for all parties....

I therefore propose that atheists pratice true morality... not morality born out of threats and promises....

Discuss..

PA.

edit on 15-11-2012 by PerfectAnomoly because: Spelling..

Hmm, not an atheist, but my morality is based on how I want to live because of how I want to impact others, and the world during an beyond my living years through my actions. I never give any thought to whether something is a checkmark on the heaven or hell side, so to speak. I think all but the most fundamentalist of believers derive their morality from what they feel is right, rather than what their religious doctrine tells them is right.

Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by Wonders
Not too much, the Church has pretty much pulverized people either through spreading their baloney ideology or poisoning their popes who don't puppetize from the start... many people have recognized the significance of the times pertaining to prophecy.

What times exist now that haven't always existed?

Well, there is a lot of advancement in the plans of the time where an implanted chip will be necessary for survival, just need to get the kinks out of the way first.

Originally posted by Wonders
Well, there is a lot of advancement in the plans of the time where an implanted chip will be necessary for survival, just need to get the kinks out of the way first.

How will an implanted chip help us survive?

reply to post by MrXYZ

n short, SOCIETY imposes morals, not religion

I don't see how this reply's to my retort or anything else I've said in this thread for that matter.

Can you identify just how SOCIETY performs this imposition ? The process that society uses to propose the imposition of morals. Is it always thru laws ? And don't laws originate somewhere ?

This is pretty much a troll thread don't you think X ?

Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by Wonders
Well, there is a lot of advancement in the plans of the time where an implanted chip will be necessary for survival, just need to get the kinks out of the way first.

How will an implanted chip help us survive?

That is a good question for those with the means to create them.

Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by MrXYZ

 

n short, SOCIETY imposes morals, not religion

I don't see how this reply's to my retort or anything else I've said in this thread for that matter.

Can you identify just how SOCIETY performs this imposition ? The process that society uses to propose the imposition of morals. Is it always thru laws ? And don't laws originate somewhere ?

This is pretty much a troll thread don't you think X ?

edit on 16-11-2012 by randyvs because: (no reason given)

I'll give you an example of society imposing morals, not just through law:

In 1970, 84% of people were against pot...it was socially not acceptable to smoke pot. Scroll forward to the end of 2011 and suddenly a majority is in favor of recreational use of pot...the % is even higher (70% for medical use). Now the law is really clear on a federal level, if they catch you with enough, you're going to jail...hell, you get in trouble for smoking it if caught.

Morals are often supported by corresponding laws. And guess what we're seeing!! Laws are being changed (slowly) to reflect this change in perception about pot. Since more and more people don't care about others smoking pot recreationally anymore, and it's socially becoming more acceptable (hell, they make movies about it!!), the laws are starting to change. People talk about the "failed war on drugs", and you see shops pop up in defiance of current laws. Most college kids I know have tried it, and statistics suggest the % of people smoking is actually quite large.

So what we have here is a case of changing morals...resulting in a slow change in laws. And laws regulate how we live as a society.

The funny thing is, while it's largely driven by a younger generation driving it, you see this trend in all generations. As someone who likes the occasional spliff, I can tell you that I've shared one with a massive variety of people from young college kids to people working in science to old people and often people you wouldn't expect at all (like certain super anti-pot GOP politicians...that then of course get caught). And while those people were once afraid to admit it, you hear more and more people admitting to smoking pot. For crying out loud, the president (and previous one...and the one before) admitted to it.

So as you see, as society changes, morality changes too...which of course results in changes in law because they govern how a society lives. That's why it was totally ok to force the wife of your dead enemy to marry you just a few hundred years ago...while today that's totally frowned upon. Same goes for eating shrimp...or mixing cloth.

Everything is constantly changing, our entire environment...and as we all know, in order to survive, you need to adapt. That includes religion by the way, because if it doesn't adapt, it's bound to die out just like every other religion before it. Why? Because suddenly the majority of a society changed so much it doesn't match the beliefs of a "fixed" belief system anymore. The only option for those believers is to either adapt their belief system, or to live in a decreasingly small bubble within the larger society by ignoring social norms and morals.

Another example would be that whole gay pride stuff. Can you imagine a gay parade during the 50s???

Last year 53% of Americans supported gay marriage. Guess how much of an increase that is since the 50s...and as it looks laws are slowly changing too as social morality does.

Oh, and I think this is a good thread because it explains that religion isn't the guiding force (or doesn't have to be) for living a moral life. The points I made above should make that abundantly clear as they prove morality is imposed by society and not religion.

Originally posted by MrXYZ
Another example would be that whole gay pride stuff. Can you imagine a gay parade during the 50s???

Last year 53% of Americans supported gay marriage. Guess how much of an increase that is since the 50s...and as it looks laws are slowly changing too as social morality does.

What about blacks and whites marrying? Could you imagine that happening in the 20's?

Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by MrXYZ
Another example would be that whole gay pride stuff. Can you imagine a gay parade during the 50s???

Last year 53% of Americans supported gay marriage. Guess how much of an increase that is since the 50s...and as it looks laws are slowly changing too as social morality does.

What about blacks and whites marrying? Could you imagine that happening in the 20's?

edit on 16-11-2012 by Hydroman because: (no reason given)

Exactly...and none of those changes were religiously motivated