The atheists monopoly of true morality....

Originally posted by r2d246
reply to post by PerfectAnomoly

 

Why be moral though if this life is all there is. Who are you trying to please? As you have no creator to please but yourself.

edit on 16-11-2012 by r2d246 because: (no reason given)

Well maybe people do not want to inflict pain on others. Normal people have empathy and can feel guilt.

reply to post by PerfectAnomoly

Originally posted by PerfectAnomoly

[color=E0CE77]Atheists however, have no doctrine.. no guidelines... we [color=E0CE77]are just good people because we know it is the right thing to do.... we don't need to be blackmailed into doing good..... common sense and reason dictate that it is the best thing to do for all parties....

Common sense and reason should dictate that regardless of whether or not it is pertaining to positive or to negative traits, stereotypical categorization will always contain inaccuracies.

A specific individual group containing nothing other than 'just good people', is non-existent.
(Does not exist now. Never Has. Never will.)

[color=8A8A8A]Every bunch has it's bad apples.
Some just have more than others.






reply to post by r2d246

Originally posted by r2d246

Why be moral though if this life is all there is. [color=E0CE77]Who are you trying to please? As you have no creator to please but yourself.

That is an excellent example of religious brainwashing.

The answer to your question is very simple→ Yourself.

Treating others as you expect others to treat you, is no more than basic logical reasoning. You shouldn't need a book to explain that to you. It just makes sense.







Sadly however, we live in a world wherein a majority are incapable of reaching that common sense conclusion by themselves. We humans are greedy & evil.


[font=Comic Sans MS][color=FFB759]Even though religion has been the leading cause for so many wars and for so much bloodshed throughout written history, I shudder to think about how bad it would be if there was no religion to control those who wholeheartedly believe that they cannot be good without having 'their god' to guide them.[/font]

reply to post by PerfectAnomoly


So, at one time in my life I was an athiest, and I thought much like you did. However, the problem to your argument comes with the idea that a relationship with God, much like a relationship with, let us say a Father, is not the same as religion.

Religion - Man's attempt to explain God, or explain their worldview, and come up with rules to consider them religious. For example - having moral rules will get you in good standing with this God or the universe.

After coming to faith in Jesus Christ, it is obvious that man's attempt to do these things is useless and meaningless. You don't buy your dad a birthday gift, or go and visit him in the hispital because you want him to look highly of you and love you more, you do it just becasue he is your father. You love your father, he has sacrificed a lot of his life to care for you, raise you, put a roof over your head, etc.

I do not try to be moral for my own sake, I can not work for my faith or salvation. It is the fact the God FREELY offers salvation to us, completely by His grace alone, through faith. Works come from faith, much like being a fish produces the act of living under water, breathing and swimming underwater. A man can not spend enough time in the water and expect to become a fish, it just doesn't happen.

Of course man has the ability to do good works a part from faith in God, but it was God himself who instilled morals in every single man He has created.

The fact of the matter is, morals are not the issue we need to be concerned with. We can not do enough morals for God to love us more. We do not deserve any love or any grace from God, but He chooses to give it to us because that is part of his nature.

The evil we encounter in this world is from us. It is men who go around murdering, it is men who go around stealing, and men who go around building huge corporations, influencing government, and eat from the substance of the people.

Whether you have faith or not, great you have the ability to give a dollar to a homeless person, or do what ever you think is being moral, but what good does it do for eternity. We should strive for much greater than this, which only comes from the strength of God who wishes that noone would perish but come into a relationship with Him.

reply to post by aaronmc06


Please explain to me, how the belief in Jesus Christ will help humanity to create better things? its true, no doubt about that we need to change our way of looking at what brings joys to life, because we simply don’t have enough resources to continue our current way of life style, e.g. the capitalism and materialism.

But you do not need a specific religion like Christianity to tell you that, that is simply logic.

The dangerous thing about religions is that the claim they have all the right answers, which the oblivious dont have. The answer comes if we continue to look for them, with science, human understanding, ethics and morals. Every person is different than the other, and that is the ultimate gold we have to learn in other to live in peace

reply to post by PerfectAnomoly

we are just good people because we know it is the right thing to do....

No, you're just people that have been influenced by the Christian values that have influenced Western civilization.

reply to post by octotom

No, you're just people that have been influenced by the Christian values that have influenced Western civilization.

Get out of here, what a load of bs. If we truly where influenced by Christianity we all be running around forcing our beliefs down on others.

Morality comes from our survival instinct, we need to function in a group/society to survive - it has nothing to with Christian culture

reply to post by mc4denmark


If you were at the top of a burning building, and a fireman comes up and says, " Follow me, this is the only way out." Are you going to be more worried about the work you were doing at your desk, trying to make an extra buck, (trying to build), or are you worried about letting everyone else know that the building is on fire, and you know someone who has found the way to the bottom safely?

We live in a materialistic world, a world where moth and rust destroy, and robbers steal. This world is rotting from the inside out, and all we see is the pretty wallpaper surrounding us, thinking that we must build to achieve great success. Much like every civilization on the planet, they focused on building, and the higher they rose, the harder they fell.

We become arrogant in our ability to build and achieve great things. We have every answer we could dream of by just searching google. We feel like we have no need or no time for the creator of the universe who reveals mysteries to us. We just think because we live in an "enlightened planet" His mysteries are outdated. Far from the truth.

If eternity exists, shouldn't our goal be to show people the fragile characteristic of this planet, and at least give them reason to search for something transcendant of this world?

As an atheist myself, I will tell you there is no such thing as morality. It's a human construct. Being "moral" is doing things that will benefit ourselves by fulfilling our instinctual nature of being social animals. You aren't gonna get far or much if you go around being a complete jerk to everyone are you? You don't need religion to teach you how to be moral, but the religion itself creates a social paradigm in place in which fulfills your social nature as human. Atheists flock together with the label Atheist due to the fact it fulfills their social nature, as Christians do, as Muslims do, ect. So, ultimately, yes and no to your statement. You need religion, and you need atheism to teach you morals. It's because you identify yourself with your group, your "tribe". Why do you think wars happen. Murder, even under Hitlers rule was unacceptable, unless you are killing Non-Nazis. So religion specifically is not needed per se, but it is if that's the social group you identify with.

Originally posted by noxvita83
As an atheist myself, I will tell you there is no such thing as morality. It's a human construct. Being "moral" is doing things that will benefit ourselves by fulfilling our instinctual nature of being social animals. You aren't gonna get far or much if you go around being a complete jerk to everyone are you? You don't need religion to teach you how to be moral, but the religion itself creates a social paradigm in place in which fulfills your social nature as human. Atheists flock together with the label Atheist due to the fact it fulfills their social nature, as Christians do, as Muslims do, ect. So, ultimately, yes and no to your statement. You need religion, and you need atheism to teach you morals. It's because you identify yourself with your group, your "tribe". Why do you think wars happen. Murder, even under Hitlers rule was unacceptable, unless you are killing Non-Nazis. So religion specifically is not needed per se, but it is if that's the social group you identify with.

People get really far lying and stealing. Some countries make a habit out of killing. So I don't think you can say morals are that which benefits us.

reply to post by aaronmc06

If eternity exists, shouldn't our goal be to show people the fragile characteristic of this planet, and at least give them reason to search for something transcendant of this world?

Yes, yes indeed we should, but the willingness to learn about the world around them should come from inside our self. A greater understanding of what goes on here and that we all should be allowed to be here. I my self do not belief in the omni-potent god, who judge and weigh one another, and I don’t think that should be the reason for getting to knowing how fragile the planet is and how spirituality works, its should simply come from curiosity and openness.

Originally posted by randyvs
I suggest to you that Atheists aren't very bright people at all, if they think there is no model for morality.

Originally posted by addygrace It's almost absurd, to me, atheists even claim they have morals. The problem I see is; an athiest who doesn't believe in the supernatural, suddenly believes there's this extraordinary "factor" that keeps them from lying, stealing, killing, or sinning in general. Doesn't that seem odd?

Originally posted by Asktheanimals
Atheists don't even recognize anything divine in each other, themselves or the world.

To be honest I find these types of comments offensive, and precisely what I dislike about a lot of religious people who let their doctrines dicate to them instead of allowing their mind to investigate their doctrines. (And animals I normally agree with you!)

All you have to do is ask about morality and most will be happy to tell you. The idea that I don't value life, that I let my morals be dictated by popular social concepts ... that if the chance arose for me to advance my life I'd swing for the fences with a knife to save my own ... that I might sneak you into an alley or simply switch my morals like a pair of pants ...

I find plenty of things divine and beautiful. More so now than ever before. As a child I was cloaked in faith, and honestly death couldn't touch me. I remember not crying at funerals. I thought the person was going to God.

I know the moments I became atheist becase it was both a relief, the deepest fear I've ever felt, and the most humbling thing.

To make me the universe had to be created from scratch, explode and tear across the abyss ... Along with a hundred billion other things that came into being, one of those little things was a little blue place I call home. To look back over a hundred thousand years, to know that millions upon millions came before me .. that one of those millions held the biological traits and ingredients that one day became me; that more creatures are extinct than exist at this very moment, and right now I exist. I am. Of all the deserving beings that could have been manifested, the universe randomly selected me.

I'm temporal. Constantly degrading. Fragile. Insignificant. Pointless. Beautiful. We are beautiful, even so much as I disagree with all of you. One day I will disappear and I believe there will be nothing. I won't sleep, I won't come back as a cat, I won't be able to think ... I will be gone.

The beauty of all that is one of the few things that can genuinely bring me to tears. So many people sacrificed things for me, many of them atheists and several of them passed on. I appreciate those things many million times more, and respect people's time and pain so much knowing that they will one day be gone. Sometimes I struggle to sleep because of how beautiful this life is. I don't need a creator to tell me that people are precious.

Originally posted by randyvs
How pompous can someone be to say we all invent morality in our minds ? You even have people agreeing with you ?

No more pompous than assuming some special fantastic being gave it to me and it wasn't created by a collection of deep personal touching experiences combined with thousands of years of biological development.

My local roller derby rink has rules on the wall and is primarily run by the sort of persons you might despise; atheist homosexuals. There's a whole bunch of rules on the wall there. I'm pretty sure they existed before we wrote them down. I suspect religious rules are much like those rules on the wall. You could remove them and stealing each others stuff and murder would still be a social faux pas.

It just might mean that there might be some skating without pads and helmets.

Originally posted by addygrace I totally agree. With no moral compass, man would give in to animal desires.

By animals, you mean we would engage in team work, empathy, and awesome play fights?



They are freaking awesome.

I guess I find that anyone (atheist or religious) who doesn't investigate and intelligently and appreciatively approach the world can come up with really dumb ideas. Things like animals not having souls, or the writings of Christian philosopher Watchman Nee who claimed women should submit enitrely to the authority of man ... So many stupid and unhumble people on this Earth. They're beautiful, too. Beautiful but wow so stupid!

Originally posted by phroziac
According to religious people, if it wasnt for their god they would rape, murder, steal, etc, all the time every day.

So yes, atheists have true morality.

The only people who would propound such a notion must be the mentally handicaped. The OP is a "straw man"argument.

Tiger5

I am a former believer turned atheist. My wife continues to have a personal relationship with the biblical god. She plainly and clearly hears her god tell her to murder me because I will lead many people away from him in the future if she does not do it. Will she be doing a moral thing by murdering me under her god's command?

Originally posted by Tiger5

Originally posted by phroziac
According to religious people, if it wasnt for their god they would rape, murder, steal, etc, all the time every day.

So yes, atheists have true morality.

The only people who would propound such a notion must be the mentally handicaped. The OP is a "straw man"argument.

Tiger5

Sadly, I have heard believers use this argument.

Side note: This has been a great read. Good discussion from both sides! Thanks.

Yup, we don't need a fictional sky god to make sure we don't act like dicks...and that's not to say that the sky god thing actually works given all the mess religious fundamentalists on all sides create

I think my favorite 2 comedians said it best:

Originally posted by addygrace
People get really far lying and stealing. Some countries make a habit out of killing. So I don't think you can say morals are that which benefits us.

The countries that make a habit out of killing, it is acceptable, hence it is moral there, so it benefits you to kill as they do if you are part of that country. Lying is nothing more than telling falsehoods in order to sway people's believe in you to be moral. And stealing the same way. Furthermore, those who lie and steal usually do so in a group, regardless of how tight nit group it is. Politicians are what I'm assuming you're referring to. They are an elite group in this country. And yes, they work as a group to do it thus fulfilling the tribe mentality and said "tribes" morality because it benefits their career.

reply to post by mc4denmark

Get out of here, what a load of bs. If we truly where influenced by Christianity we all be running around forcing our beliefs down on others.

An absurd and sweeping statement pasteurized in ignorance.

Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by mc4denmark

 

Get out of here, what a load of bs. If we truly where influenced by Christianity we all be running around forcing our beliefs down on others.

An absurd and sweeping statement pasteurized in ignorance.

Given that a lot of laws aren't Christian should tell you that times are changing...and so are morals. For example, last I checked we can now mix cloth and eat shrimp...that's a big plus. You also don't get to force your killed enemy's wife to marry you and become your slave. Hitting your kids (or even killing them as the bible says) isn't cool either...

In short, SOCIETY imposes morals, not religion

Originally posted by MrXYZ

In short, SOCIETY imposes morals, not religion

But what people don't realize is with the several billion people in the world, a country like the United States has several societies in it. Society is merely a group. Yes, Christians have their own society, Atheists their own. And then you have the society which is the melting pot that is all of the United States. And we gather our morals from each sect we're a part of.

Originally posted by MrXYZ

Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by mc4denmark

 

Get out of here, what a load of bs. If we truly where influenced by Christianity we all be running around forcing our beliefs down on others.

An absurd and sweeping statement pasteurized in ignorance.

Given that a lot of laws aren't Christian should tell you that times are changing...and so are morals. For example, last I checked we can now mix cloth and eat shrimp...that's a big plus. You also don't get to force your killed enemy's wife to marry you and become your slave. Hitting your kids (or even killing them as the bible says) isn't cool either...

In short, SOCIETY imposes morals, not religion

I would agree more with you if you changed the word "christian" to "biblical" because christians will say that the Old Testament laws don't have to be followed (though they were condoned by the same god).