The atheists monopoly of true morality....

To say you are an atheist is just as silly as saying you know there is a god.

There is absolutely no evidence for either argument, and by picking a side you have closed you mind off to any other option. AKA ignorance.

In my eyes you self proclaimed atheists have you head just as far up your BUMS as those to claim they know god exists.

Keep an open mind, and don't get trapped up in any one belief system, Atheism is just another belief system.


DOWN WITH THE ISMS!!!

Originally posted by Toadmund
I have always argued the same point.
God fearing people are greedy, they will help you because that to them is their ticket to heaven.
Sometimes I think it's laughable how they think they are so pious, but really it's saving your own butt so one can be favoured by god and to mock those who were'nt religious enough and didn't make it.

An atheist that is kind is the purest form of kindness there is.

Religious people, holier than thou.

How about the advantage of writing ego-driven threads written by man, proclaiming themselves as holding a "true" form of morality, of a higher quality than those who sudy morality and ethics all the time via their religion?
Pretty divisive for starters, and not at all accurate.

A complete and utter generalization on the greedy part there, and the straw man you made of "us", or those who believe, does not actually back me into a "victim" role as you would hope. Rather, it's invalidated by it's general lack of facts, and can be safely ignored.

Likewise I'm sorry to hear you think this holds any weight at all. Is this really how it appears to you? Reread this statement ...

"Sometimes I think it's laughable how they think they are so pious, but really it's saving your own butt so one can be favoured by god and to mock those who were'nt religious enough and didn't make it".

This is a bad misconception. First, there are strong reasons not to want to "mock" or "gloat over" anyone, worked right into Christianity, worked into the religions of the world. This is not an advocated trait, in fact it is characterized as a hallmark of UN-Godly behaviour. Go ahead and blame wo/men for falling short of their professed ideals, but don't go blaming the religion. The instructions were fine.

Here's the catch. What you are trying to mis-portray as "brown-nosing" or "kissing butt" is actually genuine affection, for the God we love, and know to be real. We're not going to tow rope to your delusions about us. They make little enough sense to start, are full of baseless accusations, and filled with egotistical comparasions. They don't spark even a match to the truth as we've seen it. It's your own life, go enjoy it your own side of the fence, and don't pretend to have any control over what I believe. Among the ones who needs to consider themselves superior to others are the athiests, with their Becoming God/Goddess delusions. You can't get much more proud, arrogant, narcissistic, narcoleptic, or cold than believing you are on your way to becoming "a god" ... silly athiests.

I agree that many an outspoken athiest thinks they have a monopoly on "true morality", it seems that as soon a someone tries to seek it through any path they disagree with, they get very contentious.

reply to post by PerfectAnomoly

I disagree. Christianity, properly understood and integrated (grokked) is about the liberation of the human being to reach his full stature and to fulfill his destiny in the creation, which is to be in relationship WITH God as co-creator. In truth, as consciously aware beings we are like a chip off the old OLD block made to explore a domain of limitless possibility as an inheritance prepared for us from the time before time.

"Our liberation is God's compulsion."
~ C.S. Lewis

"Love, and do as you will."
~ St. Augustine

That atheists are not given to understand it isn't the fault of Christianity.

reply to post by windword

Jesus did. Jesus promoted communal living, where the society administered from the cumulative wealth of it's members works and goods, distributing to each individual, fairly and according to their needs.

Jesus promoted sentiments much closer to your Barefoot quote, and advocated communal living. At the same time he did not go forcefully house to house and declare private ownership must be abolished. I think he expected men and women to learn from his words and react as they felt in their hearts about it, for knowing that no business, corporation or job stood as a viable shield between the individual, and the perception God will have of them. We are all essentially alone, and answerable for what we have done, become the catalyst of, or otherwise didn't complete. It's more like a "deferred justice" account, except it is fair. Example, You are not going to be judged for the unfairness your work environment creates, but if you cave to ammoral jobs without being forced, you have become part of them. Personal intent is trump.

reply to post by Toadmund


I'm of the "I dont give a # religious order"

It's open to anyone who doesn't care about anything religious.

I read an article the other day that atheist people are generally more giving and altruistic. Religious people may donate, but they only do so out of guilt, and usually only through their church.

So the study basicalyl concluded that on average, atheist people tend to perform more kind works for random strangers.

ETA: It's fun goning to brunch on Sunday and passing all the packed church parking lots. I smile an exclaim, "Wow look at all the guilty feeling people!"

reply to post by PerfectAnomoly

I am sorry folks but you are fooling yourselves. You are not born with morality. Ever read "Lord of the Fly's"? Morality is taught to you by your friends, your classmates, and your family from the day you are born. You learn it from what you read and from conversations like this. I am not a religious person, more of an agnostic, but was once a atheist. I watched the people around me and saw the definitions of good and evil blurred, with people being taught in schools that all good and evil is conditional. Sorry, it does not work that way. Have you heard the song from Fun, Some Nights where he hates god but no longer knows what he stands for? I can understand the hatred of god but good and evil are not conditional which some day if there really is a God I hope to teach him. However that does not change the fact that morality is taught to you, not born in you.

Originally posted by PassiveObserver
To say you are an atheist is just as silly as saying you know there is a god.

There is absolutely no evidence for either argument, and by picking a side you have closed you mind off to any other option. AKA ignorance.

In my eyes you self proclaimed atheists have you head just as far up your BUMS as those to claim they know god exists.

Keep an open mind, and don't get trapped up in any one belief system, Atheism is just another belief system.


DOWN WITH THE ISMS!!!

edit on 15-11-2012 by PassiveObserver because: language

huh? ...what "belief" do atheists have?...it is the absence of a belief, unless you think that being reasonable, logical, and having critical-thinking skills is a "belief"

reply to post by PassiveObserver

To say you are an atheist is just as silly as saying you know there is a god.

Blessed are thosewho believe by faith; for those who have believed by faith, did it ever occur to you that maybe just maybe we have all the personal proofs we ever need? I've been Christian over twenty years, not attending church much for he past fifteen, but praying daily, and "in touch" with the other side. I consider myself more sane and sound-minded than a lot of people, possibly a result of education, but mostly thanks to providence and a strong mind which concentrates on such forgotten arts as inner defences and inner security.

Did it ever occur to you that countless prayers answers, thousands of "coincedences", hundreds of thousands of occasions "testing the spirits" and spiritually observing occasions building up experience, being gifted supernatural healing and complete removal of malady's that were otherwise last ing, etc, etc, Etc all add up to the Private Proofs we need?

If you rule out all blasphemy in your life, and actually seek the friendship of angels, while making concerted effort to lead a moral life, you invariably will find your way back to God. Don't blame God for abandoning you to the all-encompassing perspective and trials of demons and their depravity. You abandoned Him. Blame yourself.

reply to post by Northwarden


I starred you because although I have doubts there is a god I could have thought out my post a little more deeply and I painted all religious people with the same brush, and that is not right.

As I read your post I realized this.

But it does stand true for some religious people, not all religious people.

Thank you for making me realize that.

“God has given you a spirit with wings on which to soar into the spacious firmament of Love and Freedom. How pitiful would it be then, if you were to lop off your wings by your own hands and suffer your soul to crawl like vermin upon the earth?!”
~ Kahlil Gibran

reply to post by Toadmund


That's just a logical fallacy to generalize, so please don't think there's much need to add a pile of emotional content related to the subject matter ! I've certainly been guilty of the same in the past, although decided way back that it constitutes a lie by it's very nature, is easily described, and can only serve dis-info purposes. I guess it comes down to not making an unneccesary statement that serves no other purpose than to create an illusion. No problems.

I wholeheartedly agree and I made a thread on this a while back. I long thought that Christians and other Abrahamic religious people were in a way 'greedy' because they were only moral to get into heaven. When I brought that up the main rebuttal was that there is a difference in saved by faith and saved by works.

According to them, just being moral isn't good enough. You have to believe in God to get into heaven. And if you aren't moral and just believe in God you ask? Well apparently believing in God automatically gives you morality and reason.

I...I...I don't even..

It's not that religious people aren't moral. Just the thought that you need a crutch just to be as moral as someone who doesn't believe in an intelligent higher being is a little... I mean it seems idiotic. Like the 6ft tall guy panicking in the shallow side of the pool

Originally posted by PassiveObserver
To say you are an atheist is just as silly as saying you know there is a god.

There is absolutely no evidence for either argument, and by picking a side you have closed you mind off to any other option. AKA ignorance.

In my eyes you self proclaimed atheists have you head just as far up your BUMS as those to claim they know god exists.

Keep an open mind, and don't get trapped up in any one belief system, Atheism is just another belief system.


DOWN WITH THE ISMS!!!

edit on 15-11-2012 by PassiveObserver because: language

What definition of atheism are you using?

Atheism: a disbelief in the existence of deity

Of course no one *knows* whether there is a god or not, but one can be 100% comfortable in choosing not to believe in a god. Logic brought me to atheism, and logic would dictate that if there is sufficient proof to show that a god does indeed exist, then I would reconsider. But that certainly hasn't happened yet and I'm not banking on it happening any time soon - perhaps only after I pass on....

Originally posted by PassiveObserver
To say you are an atheist is just as silly as saying you know there is a god.

There is absolutely no evidence for either argument,

Did you just say that there is no evidence that there isn't a god?

I...

Christ I need a drink and a long walk.

Originally posted by mr10k

Did you just say that there is no evidence that there isn't a god?

Prove that there is no God. Obviously it can't be done, therefore there is no evidence that God doesn't exist. Obviously you can't prove God does exist either (right now at least). The intriguing thing to me though is "why?", why is there a universe, why is their life, why are we here? Science can only explain how, not why. Maybe there is no why, but I find that to be an even stranger conclusion than a creator.

I can understand the hatred of god but good and evil are not conditional which some day if there really is a God I hope to teach him. However that does not change the fact that morality is taught to you, not born in you.

reply to post by Jerk_Idiot


What utter presumption! You must not believe or you would at least hold back a doubt.

People don't try to reach Him, nor acknowledge that the resistance to keep you in your own private "demonic social nets" in the spiritual world is operational 24/7, 365 days of the years. I always speak in terms of the dichotomy between "TPTB" and the powers of spiritual darkness, because they are both. Centuries old, centuries wise, depraved beyond reason, and sealed off from earth, but still reachable by communion via evil souls are the powers and demons who actually control. God is in charge, and control of everything, but that does not mean that they will not guide and control humans, cause trouble, harrass those who follow God, or guide those who accept them. Demons, the evil powers they serve, will not release those who are trapped by habitual sin, backed by ignorance. It's all they can see, it's enforced, and it makes so much sense to those trapped, to stay trapped. They make it pleasureable; in fact I doubt many people will find God's approval unless they have hard reign on their passions. Until their principals outweigh their passions, why would God want that creation on his team? To poison the rest of us? Do angels want that in their backyards?

reply to post by mr10k

From where I sit, you, and other atheists make quite the assumptions.

Originally posted by PerfectAnomoly

I therefore propose that atheists practice true morality... not morality born out of threats and promises....

I totally agree.

It was like a weight was lifted off me when I finally chose to step completely out of the "God Circle".

Its actually enlightening to know I am responsible for me. Its all me.

Actually, absent God, is not the human being just a "thing" and a very small and insignificant thing at that (and then you die)?

The idea that we are not also spiritual beings seems to me absurd and not the least bit congruent with our own human experience.

Furthermore, the notion that we are not in relationship with and to the Source as the Absolute Godhead and Creator is also absurd.

reply to post by Northwarden

I have hold of my passions. As I said I am more of an agnostic and not religious. Stated in the paragraph above what you quoted so why are you going off about me being what I said I am? Curious. The topic though is morality. Are you born with it or taught it? I believe you are taught it and many religions, not just one, teach various modes of morality. They ARE different in specifics.