The atheists monopoly of true morality....

Originally posted by Razimus

Originally posted by PerfectAnomoly
A thought ocurred to me today....

Poeple that follow any religion need their religion to tell them how to behave, how to treat others, and what to believe/think.... they are forced into doing good things by their religious doctrine... blackmailed if you will.... or they will never gain access to the "next level"...

Atheists however, have no doctrine.. no guidelines... we are just good people because we know it is the right thing to do.... we don't need to be blackmailed into doing good..... common sense and reason dictate that it is the best thing to do for all parties....

I therefore propose that atheists pratice true morality... not morality born out of threats and promises....

Discuss..

PA.

edit on 15-11-2012 by PerfectAnomoly because: Spelling..

sounds like you've had some bad experiences by some evil sounding religions,

my religion doesn't tell me how to think,

my religion doesn't force me to do good...

if you do good because you are forced to do good, is it still good? not really...

What exactly is your religion, I don't think I ever heard of a religion that does not tell its disciples how to think and live their life.

Originally posted by mc4denmark

Originally posted by Razimus

Originally posted by PerfectAnomoly
A thought ocurred to me today....

Poeple that follow any religion need their religion to tell them how to behave, how to treat others, and what to believe/think.... they are forced into doing good things by their religious doctrine... blackmailed if you will.... or they will never gain access to the "next level"...

Atheists however, have no doctrine.. no guidelines... we are just good people because we know it is the right thing to do.... we don't need to be blackmailed into doing good..... common sense and reason dictate that it is the best thing to do for all parties....

I therefore propose that atheists pratice true morality... not morality born out of threats and promises....

Discuss..

PA.

edit on 15-11-2012 by PerfectAnomoly because: Spelling..

sounds like you've had some bad experiences by some evil sounding religions,

my religion doesn't tell me how to think,

my religion doesn't force me to do good...

if you do good because you are forced to do good, is it still good? not really...

What exactly is your religion, I don't think I ever heard of a religion that does not tell its disciples how to think and live their life.

before attempting to rip my religion to shreds, I'll leave you with this thought...

before i'm my religion i'm a mortal human being...

before i'm a mortal human being i'm a spiritual being...

anything after that? it doesn't matter, i'm 100% free to choose in all ways, shapes & forms, a religion that suggests not murdering people sure helps keep it's members free of prison, a religion that suggests not taking every drug under heaven sure helps keep it's members free of addiction... there are a million examples of how i'm as free as a bird, but instead of going down the list i'd rather just say, when i look up at the stars i have a sure knowledge, the supreme being is there, independent of that i've been lucky enough blessed enough to have personal communications from that very same supreme being of the universe

reply to post by Razimus


Why would I tear your religion apart? I don’t have any reason to do that. Although I will say that the thinks you mention religion is teaching you, I would say is common knowledge, or at least something you should hear from your parents.

reply to post by mc4denmark


So you are saying, those without a 2 parent structure are responsible for the downfall of society, interesting.

As for people tearing religions apart, I've see it happen in a thousand religion based threads, it's like asking what is my favorite sports team when I know in advance it's a sports team you will likely despise.

I'm a John Lennon fan, oh no, did my religion tell me to think that?

My point is this..., we are all people, just people, the second someone joins a church they don't cease to be a person, they don't become robots, zombies, sheep, they are still people, they are taught to do this and that but if they are 'forced' to do this and that, that's not the religion for me, a person is always going to sin, it's literally impossible to not sin, once you realize this, it is less stressful, knowing you are here for the purpose of experiencing the experience of being a mortal human being, being flawed is part of the reason you exist, to experience what it's like to be flawed, live in a flawed world, if the thought of hell scares you so much you try to do good things you are likely not very bright,,

i'm not scared or forced because i can see beyond it all

Originally posted by Razimus
reply to post by mc4denmark

 

So you are saying, those without a 2 parent structure are responsible for the downfall of society, interesting.

As for people tearing religions apart, I've see it happen in a thousand religion based threads, it's like asking what is my favorite sports team when I know in advance it's a sports team you will likely despise.

I'm a John Lennon fan, oh no, did my religion tell me to think that?

My point is this..., we are all people, just people, the second someone joins a church they don't cease to be a person, they don't become robots, zombies, sheep, they are still people, they are taught to do this and that but if they are 'forced' to do this and that, that's not the religion for me, a person is always going to sin, it's literally impossible to not sin, once you realize this, it is less stressful, knowing you are here for the purpose of experiencing the experience of being a mortal human being, being flawed is part of the reason you exist, to experience what it's like to be flawed, live in a flawed world, if the thought of hell scares you so much you try to do good things you are likely not very bright,,

i'm not scared or forced because i can see beyond it all

Say what? Its exactly what happens when someone joins a church, of cause the degrees of zombiefication varies from church to church, but the indoctrination the disciples receives has caused murders, suicides, hysteria, psychic trauma and much much more.

I do not believe hell exist, and if people do good things because the fear hell, they aren't sincere.

Please don't put word in my mouth, that aren't very nice. The point in my last post, was simply that when values you say you get from religion, I say are common knowledge and something you usually learn when growing up.

The reason for the downfall of EU and America is banksters, capitalism and secret groups creating suffering for personal gaining.

reply to post by mc4denmark


I would say some religions were designed for purposes of pure evil, I would say there are both good and evil people who are members of these evil organizations.

I would say some religions are sincere, I would say there are both good and evil people who are members of sincere organizations.

Yes lots of destruction has come from religions that incite, encourage and teach to hate and destroy those that are not exactly like what they are taught to be like, but I would say there is evil independent of all organizations, if it isn't a religion it's going to be a bank or a government a group or something, but grouping all evil and pointing toward religion as the cause is false, there are pure of heart in pure religions on this earth, they do exist, maybe not so easy to find these days but they do.

reply to post by PerfectAnomoly


The day I stopped believing in religion, I found out what I was truly made of. My decisions and actions are made taking real consequences into account. When you stop believing in the religious theater, you discover that you are stronger and smarter than you originally thought. You are in full control of your life. YES, I have stronger morals and I am smarter than the typical Christian that depends on a book and a couple of fake superstars (God, Holy Spirit and Jesus) and a villian (Satan) to tell him the difference between right and wrong. Religion is systematic social brainwashing.

Originally posted by Pinke

Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by MrXYZ

 

But as for a source, model of what it is to be a moral man? There's no way in hell we can look to atheism for that.

Why do animals know how to help each other?

I suspect morality etc existed long before religion, and religion just wrote some of it down then added bits that involved circumcision etc ...

Hey Pinke,
I may not speak for everyone, but I am quite happy with the sleek look I got from circumcision. I'm quite sure of it's practicality and all around good looks. I say to circumcision.

reply to post by PerfectAnomoly


You propose that Atheists practice true morality?

Religions propose the same thing.



I guess that makes you no different to religion then!

Moraity is merely a code followed.

No one philosophy or belief can claim it has true morality because it is simply subjective.

My morality is better than your morality, nah nah ne nah nah.

Originally posted by randyvs
Hey Pinke,
I may not speak for everyone, but I am quite happy with the sleek look I got from circumcision. I'm quite sure of it's practicality and all around good looks. I say

to circumcision.

LOL! That was a good one.

reply to post by PerfectAnomoly


Your first paragraph suggests you lack critical thinking skills. Sigh... oo much self righteousness going on in this forum that the pursuit of knowledge only makes them arrogant rather than humble. Shame.

Originally posted by ChesterJohn
Man by nature has no morality.

Morality comes from an understanding of Knowledge and education. If your education is based on darwinism, humanism or relativism then that morality in and of itself will always be changing like the knowledge base that gave the understanding.

So which man is to give us the correct morals to follow?

Then how are we accountable to ourselves for violation of that moral standard?

And if I violate the Moral standard and I am the one to which I am accountable do you think I will enforce self punishment for my violation?

Morals must come from a place that has a set standard and a way to enforce that set standard.

So who sets the standard and who enforces it?

ChesterJohn, glad to see your posts here! Now if we could just get some people to stop ignoring these questions.

Originally posted by curlygirl
reply to post by PerfectAnomoly

 

The day I stopped believing in religion, I found out what I was truly made of. My decisions and actions are made taking real consequences into account. When you stop believing in the religious theater, you discover that you are stronger and smarter than you originally thought. You are in full control of your life. YES, I have stronger morals and I am smarter than the typical Christian that depends on a book and a couple of fake superstars (God, Holy Spirit and Jesus) and a villian (Satan) to tell him the difference between right and wrong. Religion is systematic social brainwashing.

YES

It's quite an awakening - - isn't it. Same with me.

Once you step completely out of that "God circle" and take full responsibility on to yourself - - - its like a whole new world opens up.

Originally posted by Wonders

ChesterJohn, glad to see your posts here! Now if we could just get some people to stop ignoring these questions.

Here's your "crutch".

Gee - - and I wonder why atheists ignore the self-righteous God believer that has been brain washed into believing man is incapable of thinking for himself.

The atheist forms their morality based on what is best for their society, their empathy toward their fellow human, and their own enlightened self interest.

It is these two diametrically opposed aspects of what influences behavior that concern me as an atheist in a society comprised of mostly Christians. I have spent a considerable amount of time researching, observing and studying the behavior of those who base their morality on religious indoctrination. I have noticed very high instances of immorality stemming from their religious beliefs. In fact, the amount of people who hold bigoted and discriminatory points of view toward a variety of groups and individuals not conforming to their beliefs or who do not acknowledge the validity or existence of God is staggering. This includes rampant discrimination towards homosexuals and the general misogyny that exists within the fundamental Abrahamic religions.

atheists.org...

AND

The Human Basis Of Laws And Ethics

Without God, how can you be moral? by Fred Edwords

There is a tendency on the part of many theists to assume that the burden of proof is on the nontheist when it comes to the issue of morality. Thus, the individual who operates without a theological base is asked to justify his so doing — the assumption of the theist being that no morality is possible in the absence of some form of "higher" law.

In our culture, people are so accustomed to the idea of every law having a lawmaker, every rule having an enforcer, every institution having someone in authority, and so forth, that the thought of something being otherwise has the ring of chaos to it. As a result, when one lives one's life without reference to some ultimate authority in regard to morals, one's values and aspirations are thought to be arbitrary. Furthermore, it is often argued that, if everyone tried to live in such a fashion, no agreement on morals would be possible and there would be no way to adjudicate disputes between people, no defense of a particular moral stand being possible in the absence of some absolute point of reference.

But all of this is based on certain unchallenged assumptions of the theistic moralist — assumptions that are frequently the product of faulty analogies. It will be my purpose here to take a fresh look at these assumptions. I will try to show the actual source from which values are originally derived, provide a solid foundation for a human-based (humanistic) moral system, and then place the burden on the theist to justify any proposed departure.

www.americanhumanist.org...

reply to post by Annee

Gee - - and I wonder why atheists ignore the self-righteous God believer that has been brain washed into believing man is incapable of thinking for himself.

Any position that anyone takes, is all brainwashing, including yours.
2nd line

Originally posted by dominicus
reply to post by Annee

 

Gee - - and I wonder why atheists ignore the self-righteous God believer that has been brain washed into believing man is incapable of thinking for himself.

Any position that anyone takes, is all brainwashing, including yours.
2nd line

I was brought up Christian - - went on a God search for about 50 years - - resulting in atheist.

Personal experience - education - knowledge - - - not brainwashing.

I have been on both sides of Believer and non-Believer - - - - have you?

Originally posted by Pinke
[

Originally posted by Asktheanimals
Atheists don't even recognize anything divine in each other, themselves or the world.

To be honest I find these types of comments offensive, and precisely what I dislike about a lot of religious people who let their doctrines dicate to them instead of allowing their mind to investigate their doctrines. (And animals I normally agree with you!)

I find plenty of things divine and beautiful. More so now than ever before. As a child I was cloaked in faith, and honestly death couldn't touch me. I remember not crying at funerals. I thought the person was going to God.

Sorry, I did not intend to offend anyone particularly yourself.
May I suggest that you are not really an atheist then?

If I am "religious" it is only in the sense that I can see and feel wonder and awe at creation. To know that it is more than the sum of it's parts and that perhaps some divine force is at work.

Perhaps we have differing definitions of what an atheist is - to me an atheist feels no beauty or wonder and views the world with a mechanistic newtonian view. Just random atoms assembling in this or that form and our being here is but only blind chance - a description I feel fits neither of us.

Must we either be religious or atheistic?
Are there no degrees of separation or different category to be described then?

Maybe we're just victims of labels that set us at odds for no good reason at all.
Cheers,
ATA

reply to post by Annee

I was brought up Christian - - went on a God search for about 50 years - - resulting in atheist.

I met a man at a retreat once who spent 50 years meditating and never got anything out of it. Learned a different method to meditate, started to experience some "deeper" things, and ended up saying "holy sh**, ive spent my whole life at the wrong places and meditating the wrong way!"

Who's to say that's not your case? Certainly you can't say so cause your brainwashing from both sides has got you believing that you have it all figured out.

Personal experience - education - knowledge

Or lack thereof? Or the wrong kind? Brainwashing!

I have been on both sides of Believer and non-Believer - - - - have you?

Yup! Both sides are brainwashed

Originally posted by dominicus

I met a man at a retreat once who spent 50 years meditating and never got anything out of it.

I don't waste my time with sit down meditation. I do walking meditation - - while living a full life.

I've had OBEs - - premonitions - - visions etc - - since birth (or at least first memory) - - don't need to look for enlightenment or an awakening. Born that way.

If you want to call real life experiences and factual information brainwashing - - - no skin off my nose - - - it just reflects on you and your mentality.