God’s law versus secular law. Which is moral?

Originally posted by darkbake
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

I believe in God, but I also believe that organized religion's interpretation of God can be inaccurate. For the most part, I believe in secular humanism - but I think that secular law also has the potential to go to a dark place.

Also, one of the main criticisms I have of atheism is that it seems like community is less of an aspect of it. If we were able to have communal atheism, I would join right away, as my relationships are an important part of my life.

edit on 15-11-2012 by darkbake because: (no reason given)

edit on 15-11-2012 by darkbake because: (no reason given)

I thought I had put this O P up but I missed it but did post it just now and would appreciate your input.
Atheists are rather an independent bunch which does not surprise me but the resistance to association is a hard sell to the atheist forums.

I am having a better go of it elsewhere though. I guess it depends on the maturity of the crowd.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

This other link is in case you are a Texan.

www.churchoffreethought.org...

Regards
DL

Originally posted by watchitburn
Beliefs are dangerous, they cause wars, genocide, and atrocities. I don't believe anything.

Morals are and will always be relative to the situation at hand. It's more efficient to just have a few guiding principals.

That being the case, I can only offer some tough love.

I will give you two things to try to get you to re-think your view.

At the end of this clip is my view and the last quote is self-explanatory.

www.youtube.com...

Proverbs 3:12
For whom the LORD loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by FFS4000
Well as 'gods' law was written by man for man to control man bit of a moot point if you ask me.

The worst thing to ever happen was for religion to hijack morality. Because it's obviously moral to kill someone if they dont worship the same sky fairy as you. or to kill someone becuase you think they're a witch or can i just say

INQUISITION. The church can go shove itself where the sun dont shine, purely on that one phrase

No argument on your view but you may be blaming religions where you should be blaming governments.

I will add these clips to the mix for your consideration. They show who put what in Jesus' mouth and how Christianity has been manipulated. The first which is part of the second speaks to my Gnostic Christian label and the second shows my view of religions overall and the Noble Lie that I think we and our governments should rescind. The third clip speaks to the reason that religions were invented in the first place as it shows why social control was required for city states that had to deal with the reality of finite resources. I see these city states as led by a timocratic king who through the religion that he would have created, also realized that there had to be a tyrannical part to his benevolent duty and created a religion to be just that.

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

I see the King/God as having to have the morals shown in the Haigt clip.

blog.ted.com...

He would have to create his religion as expressed through his high priest/tyrant who would live by the first commandment of God, place no one above me as the enforcer of his King/God's rules and laws while still obeying his King. The larger Roman system would later assume the same system through the Noble Lie. First through the Flavian and later through Constantine.

www.simchajtv.com...

Regards
DL

Originally posted by EnochWasRight
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

Laws are for those who break the universal law of love. Laws are not the problem. When the lawless rule, there is no justice in the land. Justice is the key to what the law does. Apart from justice, God engages justice. Either way, justice will happen. Suffering is something that is also universal. Either we suffer the results of sin or we suffer toward the goal of reward. Smoke and you get cancer. Work out in a gym and get more life. It's the direction here that matters. The same holds true for justice. Allow the thieves to go free and you experience justice from God as a result. Cling to justice as a cause and the thieves are regulated. Tyranny is the marker of a government lacking justice.

Galatians 3

23 Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Faith and truth set us free. Faith and love are the source of hope.

Thanks for the preaching.

Since you ran from the issue it looks like you recognize secular as superior to your God's law or you would have defended it. There is an adjective for that and I sure you know what it is.

Regards
DL

reply to post by Greatest I am


I'm missing something.

Either my puny mind cannot comprehend the point you are trying to make.

Or you're just not making any sense.

Originally posted by reficul
perhaps the law of the god Shiva-the destroyer would be more to your liking!
oh wait,we are on ats,i forgot,we're only allowed to speak about christian gods here!

i do like the part when Shiva emerged from the ganges river and offered up to man some kind of plant that man could use to see thru the bull sh%$#^#it!!!

I will put you down for secular law being more moral based on your being able to recognize sh%$#^#it!!!.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by borntowatch
If people dont accept God why should they accept His laws.

Your argument is silly, even Christ stated to render to Ceaser what is Ceasers, effectively teaching Christians to follow secular laws as close as Christianly possible .
Paul taught we are to follow secular laws as close as Christianity possible as well, so if scripture interperets scripture the evidence is clear.
Nowhere in the Bible are Christians told or taught to dictate Christianity, to rule by power is not a Christian principle.
Share the Gospel, not enforce it.

Within a Christian church if a person refuses to accept Christian teachings they are asked to leave, not forced to accept the teachings.

Gods law stands irrespective of if it is obeyed or not. That law is what everyone will be judged on.

edit on 15-11-2012 by borntowatch because: (no reason given)

Perhaps you might have a point but there are many instances where give to Ceasar does not apply. Like to the 60 or so % of Christians who divorce against God's law.

They also do not punish over and above secular law which their law asks them to do. Seems they put all they can above God and break the first commandment at the drop of a hat.

So much for their so called faith.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by borntowatch

Within a Christian church if a person refuses to accept Christian teachings they are asked to leave, not forced to accept the teachings.

]

I disagree. Some cases perhaps but not all.

They want the $$$$$$$$ too badly to do that.

Like here----------

www.cnn.com... eed%3A+rss%2Fcnn_latest+%28RSS%3A+Most+Recent%29

Regards
DL

Originally posted by KrzYma
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

what are you talking about please ???
God's law ?, what is it? where can I see this law ??

sorry but all laws, "god's" or human's or whatever are invented by humans for humans

and what is the punishment by God exactly ? do you mean if somebody has an accident and die, is God's punishment for something somebody has done ???
doesn't work like that

oh... I think I know what you mean... you mean those written words in some books like the Bible or the Koran ?
think who has written them... people! of course they claim to have spoken to god, I say is an illusions !!!

In somet cases, you are probably correct. Not all though.

I will put you down on the secular side and invite you to read the post above where you see those 3 or 4 links to show that the Noble Lie of government is who our beef is with as much as religions.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by watchitburn
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

I'm missing something.

Either my puny mind cannot comprehend the point you are trying to make.

Or you're just not making any sense.

I am just saying that if you do not believe in anything as you say then you are wasting your intelligence and that society cannot work on just a few guiding principles because someone will inevitably ignore those principles.

You have settled for the easy way out and have decided to not work your mind and improve your character.
I went strictly by your words.

If wrong, apologies. If right, my sympathies.
If wrong, answer the O P like a thinking man.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by reficul
reply to post by EnochWasRight

 

ah enoch! how did i know you would reply to this!? good to see you are well!
but you must have known your adversary would soon be here!
yell me something about god's law.
after moses dictates the 10 commandments,with one of them being 'thou shall not kill',
why does moses tell the isrealites to kill every one in their way to the promised land?
maybe thats why the palastinians (philistines) are so pissed at isreal!

He did not even wait that long. He killed 3,000 of his own before leaving the mountain.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by adjensen
Here's some secular law for ya, DL:

58-1. "Counterrevolutionary" is understood as any action directed toward the overthrow, subversion, or weakening of the power of worker-peasant councils or of their chosen (according to the Constitution of the USSR and constitutions of union republics) worker-peasant government of the USSR, union and autonomous republics, or toward the subversion or weakening of the external security of the USSR and the fundamental economic, political, and national gains of the proletarian revolution.
In consideration of the international solidarity of interests of all workers, acts are likewise considered "counterrevolutionary" when they are directed at any other workers' government, even if not part of the USSR.

-- snip --

58-2. Armed uprising or incursion with counterrevolutionary purposes on Soviet territory by armed bands, seizure of power in the center or areas with the same purposes, or, in particular, with the purpose of forcibly severing from the USSR and an individual union republic, any part of its territory, or of breaking agreements between the USSR and foreign states, shall be punishable by--

the supreme measure of social defense-- shooting, or proclamation as an enemy of the workers, with confiscation or property and with deprivation of citizenship of the union republic, and likewise of citizenship of the Soviet Union and perpetual expulsion beyond the borders of the USSR, with the allowance under extenuating circumstances of reduction to deprivation of liberty for a term of no less than three years, with confiscation of all or part of one's property [6 Jun 1927 (SU No 49, art 330)].

-- snip --

58-7. The undermining of state production, transport, trade, monetary relations or the credit system, or likewise cooperation, done with counterrevolutionary purposes, by means of corresponding use of state institutions and enterprises or impeding their normal activity, and likewise use of state institutions and enterprises or impeding their activity, done in the interests of former owners or interested capitalist organizations, shall be punishable by--

measures of social defense, indicated in article 58-2 of this code. [6 June 1927 (SU no 49, art. 330)].

Welcome to 1927 Soviet secular law... where laziness can be punished with a bullet to the head. Along with dozens of other offenses. Soviet Article 38.

During the Great Terror of 1937-1938, it was estimated that 1,500 people were shot every day, and those are real, identifiable people, not the vague historical stories of the Old Testament Jews that you hate so much.

Defend the morality of that!

As soon as you defend God's genocide of Noah's day.
Those included non-working innocent babies and children.

Do you want a pissing contest or would you like to give an intelligent answer to the O P for the countries we live in?

Are you saying God's laws are better and you would like to live with them in place?

Regards
DL

Originally posted by LittleByLittle
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

There is only one law from god that I know is true and that is the law of ONE. All is ONE.

All other laws humans create are either views or something that is derived from the law of ONE or both. The things that are derived from law of ONE are from my point true, the ones that are views I can decide if I wanna follow or not.

The golden rule is a derived truth based on the law of ONE.

edit on 15-11-2012 by LittleByLittle because: Spellchecking

If a derivative then it is a multi-layered law of many laws. How many and what are they?
How are they enforced?

What is the punishment from God if I break that golden rule law and how does that punishment compare to the other punishment for the other laws that you have not named.

Further, are they more or less moral than secular law which is really the question?

Regards
DL

Originally posted by bumpufirst
What is MORAL?

1. Pertaining or relating to the conscience or moral sense or to the general principles of right conduct. 2. Cognizable or enforceable only by the conscience or by the principles of right conduct, as distinguished from positive law. 3. Depending upon or resulting from probability ; raising a belief or conviction iu the mind independent of strict or logical proof. 4. Involving or affecting the moral sense; as iu the phrase “moral insanity.”

Read more: What is MORAL? definition of MORAL (Black's Law Dictionary)
acording to this? none of the above and all of the above are moral,lol,depends how you tlook at it. now,in that very last question, you wrote down demand and punishment,are they moral by any of the laws? a thin line to be crossing ,yet i believe moral goes out the door once its passed,by any law.

edit on 15-11-2012 by bumpufirst because: (no reason given)

So whose law is more moral?

Regards
DL

Originally posted by maes2
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

would you say what you mean by secularism exactly ! secularism is a lie are you mean Capitalism, satanism, monotheism, Communism, Humanism which one !?

The law you live by.

Regards
DL

reply to post by Greatest I am


My mind gets plenty of work.
I just have no interest in society or it's values.

I could pose the same argument back to you. You have settled on the easy way, choosing to follow beliefs and morals that others have already decided are best for you. You have chained yourself these beliefs, and limit your growth.

I choose to let my mind be free of any restraints, free in ways that scare others.

Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by LittleByLittle
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

There is only one law from god that I know is true and that is the law of ONE. All is ONE.

All other laws humans create are either views or something that is derived from the law of ONE or both. The things that are derived from law of ONE are from my point true, the ones that are views I can decide if I wanna follow or not.

The golden rule is a derived truth based on the law of ONE.

edit on 15-11-2012 by LittleByLittle because: Spellchecking

If a derivative then it is a multi-layered law of many laws. How many and what are they?
How are they enforced?

What is the punishment from God if I break that golden rule law and how does that punishment compare to the other punishment for the other laws that you have not named.

Further, are they more or less moral than secular law which is really the question?

Regards
DL

Should you really follow laws just because of punishment? Should you not follow them because it is the right/symbiotic thing to do for everything that is? If you cannot behave yourself and limit your wants when they create missary/parasitism on this level, then how can you be let up in the higher levels where you can create even more missary if you are not careful because you are not so limited as you are here.

Originally posted by watchitburn
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

My mind gets plenty of work.
I just have no interest in society or it's values.

I could pose the same argument back to you. You have settled on the easy way, choosing to follow beliefs and morals that others have already decided are best for you. You have chained yourself these beliefs, and limit your growth.

I choose to let my mind be free of any restraints, free in ways that scare others.

The best way to limit yourself is by choice,understanding and reason. . I am in a prison of my own higher ideals/morals and I would not have it any other way.

From the mouth of a few seeds themselves. Linkin Park - New Divide



I remembered black skies, the lightning all around me
I remembered each flash, as time began to blur
Like a startling sign, that fate had finally found me
And your voice was all I heard, that I get what I deserve

So give me reason
To prove me wrong
To wash this memory clean
Let the floods cross
The distance in your eyes
Give me reason
To fill this hole
Connect the space between
Let it fill up to reach the truth and lies
Across this new divide

Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by adjensen
During the Great Terror of 1937-1938, it was estimated that 1,500 people were shot every day, and those are real, identifiable people, not the vague historical stories of the Old Testament Jews that you hate so much.

Defend the morality of that!

As soon as you defend God's genocide of Noah's day.
Those included non-working innocent babies and children.

So you duck the horrors of 20th Century secular genocide by justifying them in Hebrew myths you don't believe anyway? Nice morality, a perfect example to further your cause.

Do you want a pissing contest or would you like to give an intelligent answer to the O P for the countries we live in?

I cited you a secular law that was used to kill millions, and asked you to defend the morality of that. Are you so naive that you think similar things aren't still occurring in the world every day, and so intellectually devoid that you are unable to defend your own claim?

How about stopping with the ad hominem attacks and address the intelligent accusation I presented?

Are you saying God's laws are better and you would like to live with them in place?

Only an imbecile would say that they would prefer living under the secular Article 38 than under the Ten Commandments of the Israelites, or the Two Commandments of Christ.

Though I suppose those who wrote and enforced Article 38 would prefer that life... until it came back around on them.

Law has nothing whatsoever to do with morality anyway, whether it's made by Man, or alleged to have been made by God.