Woman dies after abortion request 'refused' at Galway hospital (Ireland)

reply to post by SearchLightsInc


So essentially you want to give no voice to the unborn because a court of law says it is not living. yet if it was not living it would not be born. You take an instance where people were negligent to grind your political/religious axe.

How about you leave your beliefs at the door when something tragic happens.

I do not believe in abortion but i do agree that there are times when it should be necessary to do so.
there are many other situations in which legislation has caused the death of people... this is not some odd occurrence.

yes women own their body and they can make decisions on what happens to their body. if you do not want to be faced with an unplanned unwanted pregnancy stop whoring around. Its not even a moral thing or anything because i really do not want to take care of unwanted kids or pay for the procedures to end an unplanned pregnancy. (i am talkiing about taxes for healthcare to cover this) how about women show true responsibilty of their body so we do not need to have government get involved in the first place.

I as a man have no say in a pregnancy, yet if the woman decides to have a child i am forced by law to take responsibility. why can't a man have control over any of that considering it takes both a man and a woman to make a baby. The law should not force a man to have a child. A man should have some say. Men are forced to respond for something they did not want . guess what?? if men do not want to find themselves in that predicament DON'T WHORE AROUND. If a man does and a woman decides to keep the kid the man has no rights other than to cough up support.

so yeah I as a man have no power at all and women can pick and choose at their leisure. the good ol double standard that is so prevalent in women today.



one question though why is it that women can decide to carry term or not carry to term a child regardless if they can afford it or not, but a man has no choice on the matter and are legally obligated to pay?? how is that even fair?? if a woman could not choose to abort i can see forcing a man to pay. If a woman can choose to have a child or not, why should the man be obligated to pay support if woman decides to keep a child??

how does this even work?? why is there a double standard??

why do women think they can decide the fate of a man and a child simply because they have a womb. talk about sexist.

if a man wants to keep a child and a woman doesn't the man just has to shut up. the unborn child has no choice and is at the mercy of its mother. reminds me of those animals that eat their young.


i want to live in the world where there is true equality. if a woman can have an abortion legally then every man can decide whether to support a child or not if a woman decides to have one. I think both men and women are treated very unfairly when it comes to procreation and the power one has over it. A baby comes around and a man is sentenced 18yrs plus and a woman is forced to carry to term.

That abortion law should be repealed and abortion should be left to the discretion of women. Also men should be allowed to have some control in procreation by not having to respond monetarily since they have no say on the physical mechanics of a pregnancy. pro choice for men and women!


I am all for the equality of women and men. $&#* the children. born or unborn.

reply to post by Majestic Lumen


Unfortunately, getting yourself "fixed" isn't 100% effective. There are cases of men still producing sperm 6 months to a 1 year after getting a vasectomy or the body naturally reversing the process.

With women it is even worse because it can be life threatening. After having 3 kids my aunt got her tubes tied but still ended up having a tubular pregnancy (where the fertilized egg attaches to the fallopian tubes). If the fallopian tubes burst there is a high fatality rate and so my aunt had to get an "abortion" to survive.

reply to post by MonkeyFishFrog


I see, still, there are options to avoid pregnancy, unfortunately as they said in grade school the only way to prevent it 100% is to not have sex.

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that the fetus was "her body," I just meant that it is a decision concerning her body (not your body, my body or the governments body). That was my fault and I should have stated it differently.

I respect your opinion.

reply to post by Majestic Lumen


I agree. Abstinence is the only way to prevent pregnancy but it is unfortunate that all the responsibility of birth control and contraceptives is on the woman.

As it is there are women who use two to three types of contraceptives at once to try and prevent pregnancy and it still fails.

Originally posted by bluloa
Mis-informatio

In Ireland abortion rights have nothing to do with the church, we have held 2 referendums where the public decided to vote against abortion. No doubt we will have a third referendum soon. It is the democratic will of the people of Ireland that has so far decided against abortions for anything other than I mentioned above.

If you believe that catholic church has nothing to do with how the Irish people view abortion then you don't really have a clue what you're talking about.

I find that a lot of modern Irish people are either in denial or completely ignorant of the influence, still to this day, of the roman catholic church on their country and their social consciousness.

Oh please stop with the "poor women have no rights" feminist garbage. There is not one sane person in this world that thinks it's a good idea to force women to go through child birth if their life is in danger. This thread is a prime example of taking something to the extreme to prove a point. You have a right to your life, but so does everyone else. Learn to accept that.

I am all for banning abortion. However, rape and life / death reasons should be the only reason the woman gets an abortion, if she wants it.

Am i hypocrit? I guess so.

However, those are the only two cases she should be given a choice.

reply to post by MonkeyFishFrog


Yeah, i am sorry you have to have a job and pay for your own things. Wait, then again, i guess i should apologize for you having to live. Sucks doesnt it? Only one way out now.

Now, if she was my wife, i wouldnt mind paying for her contraceptives, obviously.

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


I was going to stay out of this, and I won't go into detail as I have written many long, explanatory and referenced posts about this subject, but I thought I'd chime in briefly to respond to this particular post...

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
...this claim that a fetus is "a mother's body" is based on a FALSE BELIEF... A fetus has it's own organs, it has a heart, it has it's own skin. It is NOT part of a woman's body just because it is inside a woman's womb...

If a fetus was part of a woman's body, then every person who has worms inside their bodies, those worms are part of their bodies as well...

Intestine worms for example. They feed off the host, living inside your body, so I guess the worms are part of people's bodies...

Even though you're trying to be facetious and sarcastic here, I don't think you realise how close to the truth your analogy is...

To clarify... it's not a false belief at all, it is the accepted scientific definition... the feotus, up until the point it can live outside the mother's body independently (the absolute earliest is around the end of the second trimester), is appropriately known as a parasite... regardless of organs, function, cerebral activity, etc... It is true that many of the "parasites" are loved and wanted, but it is still a parasitic formation to the host.

par·a·site/ˈparəˌsīt/ - An organism that lives in or on another organism (its host) and benefits by deriving nutrients at the host's expense.

A foetus is literally a parasite... and you want to deny a human the right to remove a parasite from their own body... your moral objections aside (which may or may not be valid for a given individual or situation), every sentient individual inherently has the right to remove any parasitic formations that may be affecting it.

Cheers

reply to post by puzzlesphere


You are right, a human fetus is a parasite. So are children up until the age of 18. Does that give a person a right to kill their 10 year old because it's being a parasite?

Argument




Water

reply to post by seabhac-rua


Would it make you feel better if they were all athiests? It doesn't matter why the majority are against abortion, the point is that they are. It's not a huge secret or something, people who move to Ireland know what they are getting into, or they are too dumb to research the place they are moving to. Either way, tough luck if you don't like their laws, when you move there you agree to abide by them.

reply to post by shelookslikeone


Actually, no, a foetus is a parasitic organism up until about the end of the second trimester of pregnancy, after that a viable "child" (not a parasite after it has been severed from the umbilical cord) is often dependent on an adult of the species for survival... but dependance isn't parasitic. Not "water" at all (as you so eloquently tried to infer), just the facts, science and generations of research and definitions.

Feel free to deny it, but you will be wrong.

Cheers

Originally posted by votan
reply to post by SearchLightsInc

 

So essentially you want to give no voice to the unborn because a court of law says it is not living. yet if it was not living it would not be born.

Essentially, yes. Is it so hard to understand that I dont personally believe (and science hasn't proved) that life begins at conception?

You take an instance where people were negligent to grind your political/religious axe.

Im all for men and women having rights over their own bodies, I'm not ashamed to admit it.

How about you leave your beliefs at the door when something tragic happens.

Just like that doctor/nurse who told the patient "Hey, this is a catholic country and we dont believe in abortions, right? You scratch my back, i'll scratch yours.

I do not believe in abortion but i do agree that there are times when it should be necessary to do so.

Like on this occasion when her life was at risk but they did nothing because the baby had a heartbeat?

there are many other situations in which legislation has caused the death of people... this is not some odd occurrence.

Actually it is. Despite knowing she was miscarrying the baby they oddly decided to do nothing because they apparently couldnt bare the thought of a non viable life not having a chance puz:

yes women own their body and they can make decisions on what happens to their body.

She begged for an abortion and it wasn't given. She lost her life because of it, dont tell me "women have rights" when clearly, they do not.

if you do not want to be faced with an unplanned unwanted pregnancy stop whoring around.

She was married for the record. And just so you know, not all conceptions are planned. Accidents happen even with married/long term couples, dont be ignorant.

Its not even a moral thing or anything because i really do not want to take care of unwanted kids or pay for the procedures to end an unplanned pregnancy.

But you're more than happy to pay for their education, healthcare and any other concessions the state might make in their entire lifetime? Makes sense...

(i am talkiing about taxes for healthcare to cover this) how about women show true responsibilty of their body so we do not need to have government get involved in the first place.

Yes, yes, blame the women! Your sperm isnt apart of the problem

Continued...

reply to post by votan

I as a man have no say in a pregnancy, yet if the woman decides to have a child i am forced by law to take responsibility.

First smart thing you've said but take your own advice and be responsible - either get your tubes tied, wear a condom or stop whoring around. You might not be able to abort a baby but she can because its her body and her decision.

why can't a man have control over any of that considering it takes both a man and a woman to make a baby.

Do you have a womb to bring a child to term? No? That's why you have no say. Why cant i be a naked male model? Because i dont have a penis.

The law should not force a man to have a child.

Shouldn't force unwanted pregnancies either.

A man should have some say.

You have the right to abstain from sex, use protection or get a vasectomy. You also have a choice in what type of partner you have, if you sleep with a gold digger and she takes you for every penny you have in child support, poor decision on your part, mate.

Men are forced to respond for something they did not want.. guess what?? if men do not want to find themselves in that predicament DON'T WHORE AROUND.

Could not agree more!

If a man does and a woman decides to keep the kid the man has no rights other than to cough up support.

Shouldnt have slept with that type of women.

so yeah I as a man have no power at all and women can pick and choose at their leisure. the good ol double standard that is so prevalent in women today.

No they cant. In Ireland they cannot choose to abort a child so please dont make out like women have got rights to their own bodies when clearly, they dont.

one question though why is it that women can decide to carry term or not carry to term a child regardless if they can afford it or not, but a man has no choice on the matter and are legally obligated to pay??

1.Its her womb not yours.
2. The government doesnt want to pay for a child because you couldnt be assed to protect yourself.

how is that even fair??

Life isnt fair.

if a woman could not choose to abort i can see forcing a man to pay. If a woman can choose to have a child or not, why should the man be obligated to pay support if woman decides to keep a child??

Because you had the choice to not sleep with her, to use protection and to have a vasectomy. If you loose your purse/wallet and the finder of it does not return it, you shouldn't have been so careless!

how does this even work?? why is there a double standard??

Dont even get me started on double standards.

why do women think they can decide the fate of a man and a child simply because they have a womb. talk about sexist.

Whine whine whine, how about you grow a vagina and stop crying.

if a man wants to keep a child and a woman doesn't the man just has to shut up.

You dont own a womb! Is this so hard to understand!? You dont have the oven to cook the turkey! You cant make christmas dinner! Its rather simple, dont try and over-complicate things, you'll confuse yourself!

the unborn child has no choice and is at the mercy of its mother.

Indeed, the mother is the captain of the ship, Not hard to understand that either.

reminds me of those animals that eat their young.

You are aware that humans are indeed animals?

i want to live in the world where there is true equality.

That would obviously be subject to your beliefs.

if a woman can have an abortion legally then every man can decide whether to support a child or not if a woman decides to have one.

Maybe disneyland will let you stay a couple years?

I think both men and women are treated very unfairly when it comes to procreation and the power one has over it

I think men like yourself over-state your "rights" to women's wombs.

A baby comes around and a man is sentenced 18yrs plus and a woman is forced to carry to term.

Legalize abortion then.

That abortion law should be repealed and abortion should be left to the discretion of women.

Absolutely.

Also men should be allowed to have some control in procreation by not having to respond monetarily since they have no say on the physical mechanics of a pregnancy.

Ahh, knock up who you like and not raise your children because you didnt like the mother that much? Haven't men been doing that for a few thousands years now?

pro choice for men and women!

Hmm, dont think you understand the meaning of pro-choice...

I am all for the equality of women and men. $&#* the children. born or unborn.

Yeah!!!

reply to post by SearchLightsInc

She begged for an abortion and it wasn't given. She lost her life because of it, dont tell me "women have rights" when clearly, they do not.

Where are you getting that from? She begged for an abortion, then died of a infection later. Do you have a better article with a doctor stating that an abortion would have made a difference? I have read 30 articles on it so far, and the only one that says it in those, are the husband.

I found a timeline though

Sunday 21 October:
Patient presents to hospital complaining of backpain.
Patient is admitted with a threatened miscarriage to the Obstetrics and Gynaecology Unit.

Monday 22 October:
After 24 hours of admission, antibiotics are given.

Tuesday 23 October:
Patient transferred to theatre.
Spontaneous miscarriage occurs.

Wednesday 24 October:
Post-theatre patient is transferred to Intensive Care Unit.
Patient remains unwell.

Thursday-Saturday 25-27 October:
Patient continues to deteriorate.

Sunday 28 October:
Patient dies in ICU.
Post mortem examination ordered by coroner.

Source

She was given antibiotics on monday, and didn't start to miscarry until tuesday. So how is it that an abortion could have saved her in any way? Sounds like the infection caused the miscarriage, not the other way around.

She went in, complaining of back pain, asking to be induced..... Does anyone know a lady that had a kid that didn't complain of back pain? I mean it's common sense, you have more weight and mass up front, yeah the stabilizer muscles are going to be working harder than normal..... Hardly a medical threat though, is it?

For those that don't know what threatened miscarriage is:

Threatened miscarriage—vaginal bleeding before 20 gestational weeks—is the commonest complication in pregnancy, occurring in about a fifth of cases. Miscarriage is 2.6 times as likely, and 17% of cases are expected to present complications later in pregnancy. Although general practitioners and gynaecologists often see this condition, management of threatened miscarriage is mostly empirical. Bed rest is routinely recommended, and about a third of women presenting with threatened miscarriage are prescribed drugs. However, two thirds of the general practitioners recommending this do not believe it affects outcome

Threatened miscarriage occurs often and is a serious emotional burden for women. Sonographic evaluation at presentation can usually differentiate between intrauterine and extrauterine pregnancy and offer some prognostic clues. Demonstration of fetal heart activity is generally associated with a successful pregnancy rate of 85-97%

I used a european source

Originally posted by milkyway12
I am all for banning abortion. However, rape and life / death reasons should be the only reason the woman gets an abortion, if she wants it.

Am i hypocrit? I guess so.

However, those are the only two cases she should be given a choice.

reply to post by MonkeyFishFrog

 

Yeah, i am sorry you have to have a job and pay for your own things. Wait, then again, i guess i should apologize for you having to live. Sucks doesnt it? Only one way out now.

Now, if she was my wife, i wouldnt mind paying for her contraceptives, obviously.

edit on 17-11-2012 by milkyway12 because: (no reason given)

Perhaps you should've clicked on the link that shows the post I was replying to because none of it had anything to do with money. We were discussing how abstinence was the only 100% method to prevent pregnancy and how contraceptives are not entirely effective so I was pointing out how some women, just to improve chances of not getting pregnant, will utilize 2-3 types of birth control (pills, condoms, spermicide, etc.).

I wasn't speaking about myself at all in the post so I have no idea why you are attacking or trying to patronize me.

More feminism anti-man rhetoric being thrown around. A man has no say in pregnancy? Oh really? Ladies, do me a favor, go sit on a bed and try to become pregnant on your own. Go ahead. Sit there until it happens! ...?

All you women pushing this pro feminist crap and how you love the fact that you think it's your womanly right to murder your own child need to understand that this feminist garbage was injected into this society to divide us. Just like racial division, religious intolerance and every other form of hatred on this planet.

You want to know the real reason why so many women will sit here and defend abortion? Because most of them have had them. It's the only way they can sleep at night. It's time to come back to reality. People talk about the Maya and other early cultures because they practiced human sacrifice? ...compare the numbers.

reply to post by shelookslikeone


You sure like sweeping generalizations.

Here's one.

Men just want sex. They want none of the responsibility that comes with it including contraceptives and pregnancy. Men want their cake and eat it too.

People want to blame the woman for having 3 kids from 2 different fathers but no one says anything about the men who have 7 children with 7 different women.

There are approximately 12 million single parents in the USA and 10 million of them are women.

Women step up to the plate more than men ever did.

Originally posted by MonkeyFishFrog
reply to post by shelookslikeone

 

You sure like sweeping generalizations.

Here's one.

Men just want sex. They want none of the responsibility that comes with it including contraceptives and pregnancy. Men want their cake and eat it too.

People want to blame the woman for having 3 kids from 2 different fathers but no one says anything about the men who have 7 children with 7 different women.

There are approximately 12 million single parents in the USA and 10 million of them are women.

Women step up to the plate more than men ever did.

Nobody says anything to men having 7 children with 7 different women because they know that if he's not paying for them, he's going to end up in a cage. But you know, the woman? Na just abort them. It's her womanly right to never have to deal with child support! No cage for her!