Have Atheists Given Up Here?

I've learned that debate will not change someones opinion and belief no matter how evidence backed you're point is. Sometimes, one must learn to keep his own beliefs to himself. However, that is not to say you must listen to these people of faith talk about it too you. Politely state your point and move quickly on to another subject. They may become angry or confused and ask further questions, state your original point and move to a new subject. I am religiously accepting, but that does not mean I need to know what you believe and why everyone else should believe it too. That goes for my own personal beliefs as well.

Well, I hope they have given up...and the theists too.

To me atheists are nearly as dogmatic as religious apologists....and neither have much of an argument.

ATHEIST: I don't BELIEVE there is a God!
THEIST: I BELIEVE there is a God!

ATHEIST: Prove there is a God!
THEIST: No, you prove there isn't a God!
-----------


...It's lonely being an agnostic...You get whiplash from watching the two sides argue

...and the fence hurts your butt

Originally posted by Wonders
reply to post by jiggerj

 

Have you ever been to a group of satanists to make fun of their beliefs? No? Hmm....
Can anyone give me valid evidence that Satanism is a bunch of nonsense? No? Hmm.....
Is it possible that "christians" are picked on the most because some "athiests" think that "christians aren't supposed to hurt other people's feelings"? like a child banging on a fish tank

edit on 10/01/11 by Wonders because: to add.

Or it could also be that Christians are all in your face all the time trying to tell you the jesus story, as if there is anyone in the US or the world that hasn't heard this yet. It's as though they think some magic way they tell it will change your mind. They have knocked on my door more times than I can recall, they have come up to me at stores and gas stations. When I was in college, there was always someone "posted" at the student center all the time who would ask people walking by if they would take a survey for a project he's doing. The survey was him pushing his god smack on people.

Also, it is mainly Christians who made it unspeakable for so many years to even be an atheist. Even today, I do not feel free in most situations to tell people I do not believe in god. Religion is supposed to be avoided at work, but it actually comes up quite a lot. You say, on my way in, my car broke down, now it's going to cost me $500.00 to get it running again. I don't know where I'm going to come up with that". They say, "you just got to give it up to god. He broke your car for a reason, some mysterious ways. Gotta ask jesus for help, jesus always there for you". And if you value your job (and seeing that you need $500.00, I should say you do) you just keep your mouth shut.

As for fearing Satanists, that makes no sense. Their god is from the same myths and legends as yours. They are as foolish as you.

reply to post by rival


I understand that you see it as a person having to believe there is no god to be an
atheist, that argument mostly comes down to how you define terms, what i would
point out tho is most atheist, myself included, see it in this light, my atheism is not
me saying i don't believe in a god, its me saying "I do not accept their claim for a god"
to me that changes things, I make no assumption one way or the other, i am open
to evidence either way, the problem is theists lack the evidence to prove the claim
that there is even a god, so i must say their evidence is lacking or i would be dishonest.

I make no claim therefore i require no evidence, I merely say their claim lacks the evidence
to be proven as a true statement. If they could prove god is or even was real the story might
be different.

Originally posted by rival
Well, I hope they have given up...and the theists too.

To me atheists are nearly as dogmatic as religious apologists....and neither have much of an argument.

ATHEIST: I don't BELIEVE there is a God!
THEIST: I BELIEVE there is a God!

ATHEIST: Prove there is a God!
THEIST: No, you prove there isn't a God!
-----------


...It's lonely being an agnostic...You get whiplash from watching the two sides argue

...and the fence hurts your butt

edit on 15-11-2012 by rival because: (no reason given)

Actually, this isn't exactly right. Atheists don't generally argue "I don't believe there's a god". You almost got it right in the follow up. The fact is, there is no proof of such a god. It has nothing to do with what I believe or don't believe. So far, there just isn't any evidence leading a rational person to entertain such an idea. I'm not inclined to eat bulls#*t sandwiches given to me by people with fake, suspicious smiles.

Originally posted by bloodreviara
reply to post by rival

 

I understand that you see it as a person having to believe there is no god to be an
atheist, that argument mostly comes down to how you define terms, what i would
point out tho is most atheist, myself included, see it in this light, my atheism is not
me saying i don't believe in a god, its me saying "I do not accept their claim for a god"
to me that changes things, I make no assumption one way or the other, i am open
to evidence either way, the problem is theists lack the evidence to prove the claim
that there is even a god, so i must say their evidence is lacking or i would be dishonest.

I make no claim therefore i require no evidence, I merely say their claim lacks the evidence
to be proven as a true statement. If they could prove god is or even was real the story might
be different.

Ummm....I think this argument makes you an agnostic

Perhaps an anti-theistic-agnostic... but still an agnostic.

S'okay though...we're a pretty reasonable group... just waiting on some evidence before we decide.

You see most agnostics have this little problem with the curious enigma of our own singular
and separate consciousness just happening to suddenly appear out of thin air on this
tiny blue ball. Because the universe is quite large and has been around for billions of years...
So the thing we need to figure out before we decided is...why here?...and why now?

Maybe if we can get the answers to these questions we'll throw in with one of the more popular groups .

Originally posted by definity
Belief is not logical

/end thread

Originally posted by notquiteright

Originally posted by rival
Well, I hope they have given up...and the theists too.

To me atheists are nearly as dogmatic as religious apologists....and neither have much of an argument.

ATHEIST: I don't BELIEVE there is a God!
THEIST: I BELIEVE there is a God!

ATHEIST: Prove there is a God!
THEIST: No, you prove there isn't a God!
-----------


...It's lonely being an agnostic...You get whiplash from watching the two sides argue

...and the fence hurts your butt

edit on 15-11-2012 by rival because: (no reason given)

Actually, this isn't exactly right. Atheists don't generally argue "I don't believe there's a god". You almost got it right in the follow up. The fact is, there is no proof of such a god. It has nothing to do with what I believe or don't believe. So far, there just isn't any evidence leading a rational person to entertain such an idea. I'm not inclined to eat bulls#*t sandwiches given to me by people with fake, suspicious smiles.

Well, as much as the sandwich analogy makes me smile...I do need to point out that Merriam Webster
disagrees with you about the definition of atheist.

Definition of ATHEISM
a : a disbelief in the existence of deity
b : the doctrine that there is no deity

See the operative word "belief" in the above definition.
Strict put...atheism and theism alike or both systems of belief...

reply to post by rival


From my experience people who claim they are "agnostic" are really just closet christians.

A true agnostic would need to be open to the possibility of Zeus being just as real as God. You dont see many who are agnostic about Zeus, Odin, Anubis, or any other obscure god do you?

Atheist is the absence of belief in any god. This lack of belief is due to a complete and utter lack of any sort of evidence to support it. Just being open to the possibility of future evidence to support any given god, does not make a person agnostic.

The scientific method allows for new evidence, and with new evidence it allows for new hypothesis and theories.

Look at it this way, there is no such thing as living pink glittery unicorns, but with evidence to support them, those who did not believe they existed would see that they are in fact real.

DC

reply to post by rival


Well, I can only speak for myself then. This is why I generally avoid being a part of any large group or ideology. You get held accountable for other (in this case) atheists "beliefs" even when they don't match your own. Well played.

Originally posted by xDeadcowx
reply to post by rival

 

From my experience people who claim they are "agnostic" are really just closet christians.

A true agnostic would need to be open to the possibility of Zeus being just as real as God. You dont see many who are agnostic about Zeus, Odin, Anubis, or any other obscure god do you?

Atheist is the absence of belief in any god. This lack of belief is due to a complete and utter lack of any sort of evidence to support it. Just being open to the possibility of future evidence to support any given god, does not make a person agnostic.

The scientific method allows for new evidence, and with new evidence it allows for new hypothesis and theories.

Look at it this way, there is no such thing as living pink glittery unicorns, but with evidence to support them, those who did not believe they existed would see that they are in fact real.

DC

I really like the first part of your argument...it's hard to refute, but atheism is not an absence of
belief. Absence of belief falls under the definition of agnostic.

An atheist believes God does not exist.

Originally posted by notquiteright
reply to post by rival

 

Well, I can only speak for myself then. This is why I generally avoid being a part of any large group or ideology. You get held accountable for other (in this case) atheists "beliefs" even when they don't match your own. Well played.

Amen brother...

You do realize that NOT being part of a large group can make you unpopular

Originally posted by rival
Well, I hope they have given up...and the theists too.

To me atheists are nearly as dogmatic as religious apologists....and neither have much of an argument.

ATHEIST: I don't BELIEVE there is a God!
THEIST: I BELIEVE there is a God!

ATHEIST: Prove there is a God!
THEIST: No, you prove there isn't a God!
-----------


...It's lonely being an agnostic...You get whiplash from watching the two sides argue

...and the fence hurts your butt

edit on 15-11-2012 by rival because: (no reason given)

BUT I TELL YOU THERE IS A GOD, IT'S AS PLAIN AS DAY!!! CAN'T YOU SEE! .....LOL ha ha just kidding.

But here's a thought....(and for everyone else)

What if God only shows up when you show up. So an atheist who never goes looking never finds. But the Christian who took the leap of faith discovered the truth. Perhaps which is why many never change there mind about what's behind it all, as once you've become awakened, it's hard to fall asleep again consciously. But meanwhile when you become a Christian God only gives you enough so that it's a personal experience.....hmmmm well..... I suppose the atheist would argue that's your mind making up the experience, or some crap like that..... well all I'm saying is that an "experience" does take place that keeps you believing. Overall though lets say I'm wrong, I think it's better to believe in something than nothing. Like for the spiritual aspect of a persons life, to leave it void thinking that somehow that's a good thing....that's lame..... anyway I'm done.

reply to post by rival


As i did point out, you are right in a sense as it depends on which definition you use
for atheism, and while you could possibly place me on the agnostic side of the fence to me
its not whether i believe in a god or not, its the fact that their claims have no
evidence behind them, i guess you could say i'm an atheistic agnostic if you wanted
to define a term.

But its kind of a pointless thing, I however would define atheism as a lack of belief
in god and not a choice to not believe in god, while some dictionaries support my
stance, I am aware that others support your stance, the way i look at it is everyone
is born an atheists as we are all born lacking the knowledge that a god exists, hence
making us all atheists by default, then later choices are added and things change.

For the purpose of this thread i would say that definitions don't actually matter, what
matters is whether or not they can provide proof of gods existence because the
baseline must be that there is no god until proof of existence is established, otherwise
we could just believe anything, such as fairies, gnomes, elves, any other god,
people with superpowers etc, etc, etc, as we cannot prove for a fact all those things
don't exist either.

As to the OP again, i think we all just get tired of arguing with people who refuse to
acknowledge reality to begin with.


You know thinking about it your actually correct here, atheism deals directly with
belief while agnosticism deals with the actual question of gods existence or not,
i had a mistaken impression, i suppose then that everyone would be born agnostic,
lacking knowledge of a god, tho i suppose they would also lack belief for lacking
knowledge must mean to lack belief in that example as they do not have the
ability to believe or disbelieve at that point.

reply to post by r2d246


But that would imply no atheist has ever looked. It's not only atheist who change their mind.

Originally posted by notquiteright

Originally posted by Wonders
reply to post by jiggerj

 

Have you ever been to a group of satanists to make fun of their beliefs? No? Hmm....
Can anyone give me valid evidence that Satanism is a bunch of nonsense? No? Hmm.....
Is it possible that "christians" are picked on the most because some "athiests" think that "christians aren't supposed to hurt other people's feelings"? like a child banging on a fish tank

edit on 10/01/11 by Wonders because: to add.

Or it could also be that Christians are all in your face all the time trying to tell you the jesus story, as if there is anyone in the US or the world that hasn't heard this yet. It's as though they think some magic way they tell it will change your mind. They have knocked on my door more times than I can recall, they have come up to me at stores and gas stations. When I was in college, there was always someone "posted" at the student center all the time who would ask people walking by if they would take a survey for a project he's doing. The survey was him pushing his god smack on people.

Also, it is mainly Christians who made it unspeakable for so many years to even be an atheist. Even today, I do not feel free in most situations to tell people I do not believe in god. Religion is supposed to be avoided at work, but it actually comes up quite a lot. You say, on my way in, my car broke down, now it's going to cost me $500.00 to get it running again. I don't know where I'm going to come up with that". They say, "you just got to give it up to god. He broke your car for a reason, some mysterious ways. Gotta ask jesus for help, jesus always there for you". And if you value your job (and seeing that you need $500.00, I should say you do) you just keep your mouth shut.

As for fearing Satanists, that makes no sense. Their god is from the same myths and legends as yours. They are as foolish as you.

edit on 15-11-2012 by notquiteright because: (no reason given)

Those people who knock on doors and harass, I wouldn't want anything to do with them either!!!
Hmm....I didn't know about this "unspeakable" to be an athiest bit. Care to explain?
Once l laughed at church when some Freemason was telling us, "If you've got a problem, tell it to Jesus!" I was thinking, "Gee, I wish someone human would offer up some help."
Um, yeah I agree, Satanism is foolish, and yes, I MYSELF may be foolish. But I refuse to believe that everyone is a fool, there has to be SOMEONE OUT THERE who pleases God.
There's nothing wrong with praying but I think that people who say, "He broke your car for a reason." may need to read the book of James.
James 2:4-17 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

Originally posted by rival

Originally posted by xDeadcowx
reply to post by rival

 

From my experience people who claim they are "agnostic" are really just closet christians.

A true agnostic would need to be open to the possibility of Zeus being just as real as God. You dont see many who are agnostic about Zeus, Odin, Anubis, or any other obscure god do you?

Atheist is the absence of belief in any god. This lack of belief is due to a complete and utter lack of any sort of evidence to support it. Just being open to the possibility of future evidence to support any given god, does not make a person agnostic.

The scientific method allows for new evidence, and with new evidence it allows for new hypothesis and theories.

Look at it this way, there is no such thing as living pink glittery unicorns, but with evidence to support them, those who did not believe they existed would see that they are in fact real.

DC

I really like the first part of your argument...it's hard to refute, but atheism is not an absence of
belief. Absence of belief falls under the definition of agnostic.

An atheist believes God does not exist.

Interesting. I understand the difference between atheist and agnostic, but the way you worded that tripped a wire in my head.

Agnostic does not believe or disbelieve. They are waiting for the facts to roll in.
If an atheist is open to changing their mind if new evidence suggested a god, then by definition (as you said), they are not atheist, they are agnostic.

So my point here is, the way you are stating it, is basically that an atheist does not believe in god, and furthermore, would continue to disbelieve even with indisputable evidence presented. It's kind of hard for me to think of people in some sort of binary code: always on or always off and no ability to switch between the two.

I can make the statement that there is no evidence to suggest a god.
As for belief: I intensely believe that evidence to suggest a god will never be found.

Originally posted by WorShip
reply to post by Wonders

 

Haha, yet again you spin what I say im some crazy way. You continually ignore what I'm saying. so until you actually display some reading comprehension I will have to refrain from posting.

Okay okay, just what are you trying to say?
I don't believe that people who are in poverty should stay in poverty, I don't know what made that "obvious" to you. I've lived in poverty conditions most of my life and I don't blame God and I'm certainly not expecting a big earthly payoff either.

Originally posted by ANOK
reply to post by r2d246

 

But that would imply no atheist has ever looked. It's not only atheist who change their mind.

edit on 11/15/2012 by ANOK because: (no reason given)

Well then again the bible does talk about that ya, that's true. People try and then fall away for some reason. I think you eventually become intrenched in your beliefs and then it's very difficult to change that whole hog.

Originally posted by rival
Well, I hope they have given up...and the theists too.

To me atheists are nearly as dogmatic as religious apologists....and neither have much of an argument.

ATHEIST: I don't BELIEVE there is a God!
THEIST: I BELIEVE there is a God!

ATHEIST: Prove there is a God!
THEIST: No, you prove there isn't a God!
-----------


...It's lonely being an agnostic...You get whiplash from watching the two sides argue ...and the fence hurts your butt

Actually you're wrong. We don't see evidence of a god. It has nothing to do with belief whatsoever. I much prefer atheism over agnosticism. Agnostic is just another word for coward.

IRM