Have Atheists Given Up Here?

reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli


excuse me, but you cannot speak as if spirituality stems from the perception of god! That is a terrible thing to suggest. The "Spirit" is the synergy of our experience that manifests through physical structure (brain). All "people" are of the spirit. And the basis of the notion of spirit coming into existence relies on the awareness. Awareness of self/environment. This means that to suggest that "Talking to God"/Having a "God-Specific-Spiritual" Experience is a step away from self awareness and evnironment awareness.

To be frank. The biggest problem we have is an existential one. All you do when you invest belief into a God or some kind of entity who ???createditself???(not possible by logical deduction), is create a typical father/mother figure entity whom preceded you, in order to deal with your existential suffering. "I do not have to think about existentialism/reality, Because "The Heavenly Father" Created me! That's it! Perfect sense!

But no. While there may be a consciousness that existed pre BigBang, and possibly somehow used it's "Will" to create our universe in order to evolve, have a different experience, and possibly for the sole benefit of separating into many nodes of consciousness in order to have communine.. "Talk to itself". Like us here now. That entity would not have suddenly come into existence as a complex thing. More likely some "fluctuation" occured in that pre BB void, and MAYBE consciousness emerged over the eons while the fluctuation played out and eventually reached a pattern that resembled "consciousness" and "solidified". If this was the case, that entity would still have an existential problem, it was not responsible for its creation. It can only change the configuration of matter/evolve to escape its loneliness.

Therefore... The only ideas you should entertain are, Whether you believe you are the first consciousness to emerge so far, or that there was a previous consciousness who literally "became" the universe, meaning there is no difference between yourself and "God".

My post may be hard to swallow for those restricted to only the familiar avenues of comfortable thought. Also note many quotation marks, as is mandatory when speaking of the ethereal.

So ......what's wrong with your little story anyway, I'll believe it if everyone else is believing it. I'm not picky, it will give us all something to talk about.

Originally posted by jiggerj
LOL I noticed a few recent threads of religious fanatics with no Atheists arguing their point. Have we given up? Are these zealots too far gone to be saved from looking foolish?

I haven't.

It just gets boring to the point of not caring.

reply to post by WorShip


Please I already stated I am not here to argue God nor the demiurge you speak of. I am well read on Gnosticism, Hermetic ism, and various other esoteric schools of thought.

The intention was to point out that there is evidence of other forces acting upon reality which are not (yet?) explainable by science. This concept essentially erodes the extreme materialist view found in much of atheism.

Also don't tell me what to believe based on your assumptions of the evolution of consciousness as that is largely what atheists hate most about religious folks.

Besides your view on consciousness still suffers from the self creation and/or creation from nothing. Creation requires a creator which necessitates the concept of infinity which is embodied by God.

Are you a big fan of Aset? Do you have your shovel ready to dig up the merkahba the next time the world needs saving?

Originally posted by SpearMint

Originally posted by EnochWasRight

Originally posted by jiggerj
LOL I noticed a few recent threads of religious fanatics with no Atheists arguing their point. Have we given up? Are these zealots too far gone to be saved from looking foolish?

I have a question for them. Oh, I know there's no getting through to them, but I'd love to see their responses.

First, a little story: God is riding on a flying unicorn to get to the pots of gold at the end of rainbows before the Leprechauns can snatch them up and hide the gold in a dragon's lair.

Question: Which character(s) in that story is real, and which ones aren't real. On those you claim to be unreal, please prove it. Thanks!

I have one for you.

There is a digital flying unicorn connection for your computer that is 100,000 times faster than wifi and all you need to do is hit F7 three times to get connected. As for God, compare Him to wifi. We can't see it and most of us don't know how the protocol works, yet we have faith it is there connecting us to the hub because it is evident. Not only this, but we can demonstrate the fact by the wireless connection we get on our laptops. Compare this to the believer's connection to God. The connection is obvious and the results speak for themselves. History demonstrates what is unseen and the signs that God is there are all around us if we are properly connected. The signal is always good and anyone with faith can attest to what is received.

The password is FAITH and the SSID is JESUS.

edit on 14-11-2012 by EnochWasRight because: (no reason given)

I can undeniably prove that my WIFI exists.

Wifi existed before you knew. It was created and existed before it was available to you as fact. Many people had faith it would come when we were still using 300 baud modems. Faith will become fact soon.

Originally posted by EnochWasRight

Originally posted by SpearMint

Originally posted by EnochWasRight

Originally posted by jiggerj
LOL I noticed a few recent threads of religious fanatics with no Atheists arguing their point. Have we given up? Are these zealots too far gone to be saved from looking foolish?

I have a question for them. Oh, I know there's no getting through to them, but I'd love to see their responses.

First, a little story: God is riding on a flying unicorn to get to the pots of gold at the end of rainbows before the Leprechauns can snatch them up and hide the gold in a dragon's lair.

Question: Which character(s) in that story is real, and which ones aren't real. On those you claim to be unreal, please prove it. Thanks!

I have one for you.

There is a digital flying unicorn connection for your computer that is 100,000 times faster than wifi and all you need to do is hit F7 three times to get connected. As for God, compare Him to wifi. We can't see it and most of us don't know how the protocol works, yet we have faith it is there connecting us to the hub because it is evident. Not only this, but we can demonstrate the fact by the wireless connection we get on our laptops. Compare this to the believer's connection to God. The connection is obvious and the results speak for themselves. History demonstrates what is unseen and the signs that God is there are all around us if we are properly connected. The signal is always good and anyone with faith can attest to what is received.

The password is FAITH and the SSID is JESUS.

edit on 14-11-2012 by EnochWasRight because: (no reason given)

I can undeniably prove that my WIFI exists.

Wifi existed before you knew. It was created and existed before it was available to you as fact. Many people had faith it would come when we were still using 300 baud modems. Faith will become fact soon.

... So? A technological feat of humans is a bit different don't you think?

"Faith will become fact soon"

That doesn't really make sense, but I suppose you mean the correct religion which is your religion.

reply to post by jiggerj

God is riding on a flying unicorn to get to the pots of gold at the end of rainbows before the Leprechauns can snatch them up and hide the gold in a dragon's lair.

Question: Which character(s) in that story is real, and which ones aren't real. On those you claim to be unreal, please prove it. Thanks!

It's all real as a literary construct of identifiable abstract concepts. If they didn't exist as concepts, then there wouldn't be nouns attached. Now I don't have to prove that any of the characters or elements of the story don't exist!

Unicorns are mentioned in the Bible. Some people think that they may have been aurochs (huge bovines) only the people writing about them had never seen the real thing, but had seen paintings of them in profile, only the nearest horn visible.

Leprechauns :
Need I say more?
"Illustration of a short-statured Ainu from David MacRitchie's The Testimony of Tradition (1890). MacRitchie believed the native inhabitants of Britain looked similar."

Actually, see Fairy Euhemerism, I recall hearing on a radio program a few years ago that pygmy remains had actually been found in a cave in Ireland.

Originally posted by SpearMint

Originally posted by EnochWasRight

Originally posted by SpearMint

Originally posted by EnochWasRight

Originally posted by jiggerj
LOL I noticed a few recent threads of religious fanatics with no Atheists arguing their point. Have we given up? Are these zealots too far gone to be saved from looking foolish?

I have a question for them. Oh, I know there's no getting through to them, but I'd love to see their responses.

First, a little story: God is riding on a flying unicorn to get to the pots of gold at the end of rainbows before the Leprechauns can snatch them up and hide the gold in a dragon's lair.

Question: Which character(s) in that story is real, and which ones aren't real. On those you claim to be unreal, please prove it. Thanks!

I have one for you.

There is a digital flying unicorn connection for your computer that is 100,000 times faster than wifi and all you need to do is hit F7 three times to get connected. As for God, compare Him to wifi. We can't see it and most of us don't know how the protocol works, yet we have faith it is there connecting us to the hub because it is evident. Not only this, but we can demonstrate the fact by the wireless connection we get on our laptops. Compare this to the believer's connection to God. The connection is obvious and the results speak for themselves. History demonstrates what is unseen and the signs that God is there are all around us if we are properly connected. The signal is always good and anyone with faith can attest to what is received.

The password is FAITH and the SSID is JESUS.

edit on 14-11-2012 by EnochWasRight because: (no reason given)

I can undeniably prove that my WIFI exists.

Wifi existed before you knew. It was created and existed before it was available to you as fact. Many people had faith it would come when we were still using 300 baud modems. Faith will become fact soon.

... So? A technological feat of humans is a bit different don't you think?

"Faith will become fact soon"

That doesn't really make sense, but I suppose you mean the correct religion which is your religion.

James 1:27

Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

There is only one religion that is true.

Matthew 7:12

So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

Can you deny this is true? Are there other alternatives that might be considered higher? Provide one example if you can. Otherwise, it's an axiom and evident beyond fallacy.

I post in threads here and there as an atheist, the truth is I feel its almost pointless most
times, the reason for this is that even if you argue with fact and reason they will always
argue faith and fantasy as fact with no evidence and then claim equal footing.

what this does is frustrate most of us who do not believe, the facts are pretty obvious, to
miss them means they either have not read the bible or are choosing to "interpret" the bible
however they see fit, the problem with that then becomes that they are arguing for their
own personal brand of religion which goes against the bibles teachings.

to me the entire issue often devolves into a question of opinion instead of facts, now opinion
can be argued all day but the facts are what actually matter, can they prove their claim that
god even exists? no. By that simple fact alone their opinion means nothing since they cant
even prove claim number 1. Also they wish to be treated with respect for having childish
beliefs and acting like they have a right to interfere in others choices because their
god tells them to. Having someone point out that your beliefs are childish and simply
not true is somehow offensive to them, yet they don't bat an eye at someone claiming that
fairies are real being considered ridiculous. For whatever reason the just cant draw a
parallel between those two claims.

Argue with truth, honesty and reason, that's all most atheist want, however truth and reason
are not tenants of religion as if accepted they must say that in reality their reasoning is not
based on truth but on their acceptance of gods truth per say. you see it all the time, they speak
of how wonderful the bible is as a teaching tool, ive read the bible, i can tell ya, if you honestly
read whats in it, it is a book of murder, genocide, patricide, torture and slavery. I don't care
if they claim their god has the right to do those things, as an honest person i find it immoral
whether or not god condones it.

It comes down to being honest, i would rather be honest then believe a lie, that's the fundamental
choice behind all this.

Originally posted by EnochWasRight

Originally posted by SpearMint

Originally posted by EnochWasRight

Originally posted by SpearMint

Originally posted by EnochWasRight

Originally posted by jiggerj
LOL I noticed a few recent threads of religious fanatics with no Atheists arguing their point. Have we given up? Are these zealots too far gone to be saved from looking foolish?

I have a question for them. Oh, I know there's no getting through to them, but I'd love to see their responses.

First, a little story: God is riding on a flying unicorn to get to the pots of gold at the end of rainbows before the Leprechauns can snatch them up and hide the gold in a dragon's lair.

Question: Which character(s) in that story is real, and which ones aren't real. On those you claim to be unreal, please prove it. Thanks!

I have one for you.

There is a digital flying unicorn connection for your computer that is 100,000 times faster than wifi and all you need to do is hit F7 three times to get connected. As for God, compare Him to wifi. We can't see it and most of us don't know how the protocol works, yet we have faith it is there connecting us to the hub because it is evident. Not only this, but we can demonstrate the fact by the wireless connection we get on our laptops. Compare this to the believer's connection to God. The connection is obvious and the results speak for themselves. History demonstrates what is unseen and the signs that God is there are all around us if we are properly connected. The signal is always good and anyone with faith can attest to what is received.

The password is FAITH and the SSID is JESUS.

edit on 14-11-2012 by EnochWasRight because: (no reason given)

I can undeniably prove that my WIFI exists.

Wifi existed before you knew. It was created and existed before it was available to you as fact. Many people had faith it would come when we were still using 300 baud modems. Faith will become fact soon.

... So? A technological feat of humans is a bit different don't you think?

"Faith will become fact soon"

That doesn't really make sense, but I suppose you mean the correct religion which is your religion.

James 1:27

Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

There is only one religion that is true.

Matthew 7:12

So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

Can you deny this is true? Are there other alternatives that might be considered higher? Provide one example if you can. Otherwise, it's an axiom and evident beyond fallacy.

So why can't you do that without the God BS? I do.

Originally posted by WorShip
reply to post by Wonders

 

You seem to have avoided the issue. You said you had some experience to prove God. I assumed you meant some subjective personal experience unique to you. So what did you mean by proving God from experience?

What exactly is the issue?
Where did I say that? Quote me please.
The things I've experienced aren't unique to me, I never said that what happened to me can't happen to someone else too.
For one, I drowned when I was about 9 or so, it wasn't over the top joy and praise and spreading the word when I came back, but I was happy to be back and generally kept that experience to myself, I don't know if the girl who pulled me out of the water told other people about what she saw, but make no mistake, I was not the only one involved.
I've had prayers answered, and I don't feel the need to get into detail because honestly, people will just choose to ignore what I say or try to find some flaw in my reasoning but I HAVE seen and prayed too much to ever think that God isn't real.
I've spoken in tongues once when I was "filled with the Holy Spirit" as many people call it. It's not a feeling of happiness only, it's TANGIBLE. People think that demons aren't supposed to mess with you when you've got the Holy Spirit, UNTRUE, that's when they up their strategy and get serious about shutting you down.
But don't take my word for it, truly try finding out for yourself. Most "researchers" do their research for something that benefits themselves, be it money or to be highly esteemed among others, but when you do your research looking for proof of God, realize that even if you have something amazing happen to you, people will chose not to believe you.

Originally posted by ANOK

Originally posted by Wonders
So how great can science be if it is easily supressed by greedy people?
How are athiests so noble that they've allowed their own foundation to be corrupted?

Dude you make no sense.

Science is not an "athiest" [sic] foundation. Only in the heads of delusional people.

I give up!

List of Christian thinkers in science

Famous Scientists Who Believed in God

(took all of 2 seconds to find those)

edit on 11/14/2012 by ANOK because: (no reason given)

Don't give up so easily! Many people call themselves Christians, they also think that they deserve respect from others for their title, if they had read the bible, understood it, AND followed it, then they wouldn't demand respect, nor even expect it from others.
Also many non Christians believe in a God. The word God means "Invoked one", so it really depends on WHO your God is. When the dollar bill says, "In God we trust." the maker of that bill was not referring to the God of the bible. Sorry.

Originally posted by Wonders

Originally posted by SpearMint

Originally posted by godlover25
reply to post by SpearMint

 

The retention rate of Atheism is the lowest of all the worldviews,

Probably because it's a self serving false ideology that leaves its followers dry and empty,

I love you

Or maybe it's because the ability to think critically. logically and by yourself isn't that common.

All of your beliefs are based on a book, mine are based on observation. The thing is, even if everything in the Bible is true I'm still the smart one and you're still the gullible one, because right now your faith is based on nothing other than what a book and other people say. I find that quite funny.

I suppose this thread is evidence of jigger's awesome ability to think critically, logically and BY HIMSELF?

Your beliefs are based on observation of others' reactions, living vicariously are we?

My beliefs are based on experience, but then again, I haven't been relying on an obsolete science book for my world view.

This is where you said you based your beliefs of of your experience.

You're wrong to assume amazing things happen because God decides you've been good. Or has some other mysterious moral code. You obviously believe that all the people in poverty now should be in poverty and are sinners, otherwise you would have prayed for them and made it right! You fill in the gaps of your understanding of reality with God and Miracles. There's no point in even arguing with you because you seem to think I care about social status or money. I care about uniting humanity and prolonging our existence. Belief in simple ancient scripts that hijack the human spirit are merely barriers to realising our infinite potential.

It saddens me to think you believe in prayer, yet if you weren't so brainwashed by your scripture you would see that this world is in shambles because people trust in the "higher power" to fix things. As if you don't have responsibility! WE are the higher power here! And what good does belief in God give us? Pointless arguments about whether your ethereal experiences relate to a creator of the universe. How terribly dissapointing humanity is.

reply to post by jiggerj


Why are you so bitter? What did religious people do to you, perhaps other than have a desire to exercise a fundimental aspect of human existence which is spirituality.

Sounds like your looking to cause a fight? Why though? Just cuz someone's opinion is different than yours about where we came from?

Maybe next time you see a zealot talking about there faith, try and learn all you can from it, rather than judging, feeling bitter, feeling offended because someone has there own opinion, and happens to live and think different than you do.

"Evidence to support forcing acting upon reality which are not yet explainable". So because science does not intimately understand reality - you fill in the gaps with a creator of the universe? And you're well schooled in so many schools of thought? What a joke! You speak haughty but your words have no merit.

You labeled me as an atheist. I really don't identify with that, I've often observed the scorn with which christians utter that word "atheist". The fact that you merely attack me instead of trying to logically discuss my proposition indicates that you're instinctly reacting defensively, not able to dissect my post and respond rationally.

And here we go again, you obviously missed my point entirely. Try reading what I said again. There IS no solution to the existential problem, because a thing cannot create itself! You like to say some magical force that was ???outisde??? of the universe, somehow created it, yet how could he create himself? You will likely say "It doesn't matter where god came from!". Pawing the issue off so you can comfortably go back to your primitive den of religious mantra. You have no foothold to stand on, only the imagined, comfortable set of rules that does not require you to deal with your existential sufferring.

I'm sorry, i'm not familiar with Aset or Merkahba

Originally posted by WorShip

Originally posted by Wonders

Originally posted by SpearMint

Originally posted by godlover25
reply to post by SpearMint

 

The retention rate of Atheism is the lowest of all the worldviews,

Probably because it's a self serving false ideology that leaves its followers dry and empty,

I love you

Or maybe it's because the ability to think critically. logically and by yourself isn't that common.

All of your beliefs are based on a book, mine are based on observation. The thing is, even if everything in the Bible is true I'm still the smart one and you're still the gullible one, because right now your faith is based on nothing other than what a book and other people say. I find that quite funny.

I suppose this thread is evidence of jigger's awesome ability to think critically, logically and BY HIMSELF?

Your beliefs are based on observation of others' reactions, living vicariously are we?

My beliefs are based on experience, but then again, I haven't been relying on an obsolete science book for my world view.

This is where you said you based your beliefs of of your experience.

You're wrong to assume amazing things happen because God decides you've been good. Or has some other mysterious moral code. You obviously believe that all the people in poverty now should be in poverty and are sinners, otherwise you would have prayed for them and made it right! You fill in the gaps of your understanding of reality with God and Miracles. There's no point in even arguing with you because you seem to think I care about social status or money. I care about uniting humanity and prolonging our existence. Belief in simple ancient scripts that hijack the human spirit are merely barriers to realising our infinite potential.

It saddens me to think you believe in prayer, yet if you weren't so brainwashed by your scripture you would see that this world is in shambles because people trust in the "higher power" to fix things. As if you don't have responsibility! WE are the higher power here! And what good does belief in God give us? Pointless arguments about whether your ethereal experiences relate to a creator of the universe. How terribly dissapointing humanity is.

WOW. Feeling sad because I've had good things result from prayer? Uh, okay.
That's not the only reason this world is in shambles, be fair now.
You are NOT my higher power, nice try. Like I've said before, you can't buy prosperity from God.
Good and bad come to both the house built on sand and the house built on the rock.
You can choose to be dissapointed because the world isn't your oyster, but why??

Where did I say that God did anything for me because "God decided I was good"?

My beliefs are based on my experiences because if I just looked at the way the world was operating and never seen what God was capable I'd likely be just as miserable as you are. You care so much about uniting humanity and prolonging our existence, guess what, I'm not counting on you for that.

reply to post by jiggerj

The only tangible items in your story are Gold, pot and rainbows.

By the way... whats a-"theist"?

reply to post by Wonders


Oh my God. This is what i'm talking about. You're barely coherant. I'm actually perfectly content and have accepted that I must sacrifice myself for the greater good of humanity. I don't care about the individual node I occupy. I am more christ-like then you or any of the sheep like you! You say your prayer has done good! So you believe all good is from prayer? Do you see how ludicrous your belief is when you start trying to logically map it out? You misunderstand everything I say and respond with things that don't even corespond to what I say. I didnt say I'm your higher power. I'm saying that humans are the only power acting here.

It's not worth continuing this conversation. Defend your island of imaginary beliefs just like all the other deluded religions in this world. Your no different to any other human who believes without questioning. Easily manipulated.

Originally posted by WorShip
reply to post by Wonders

 

Oh my God. This is what i'm talking about. You're barely coherant. I'm actually perfectly content and have accepted that I must sacrifice myself for the greater good of humanity. I don't care about the individual node I occupy. I am more christ-like then you or any of the sheep like you! You say your prayer has done good! So you believe all good is from prayer? Do you see how ludicrous your belief is when you start trying to logically map it out? You misunderstand everything I say and respond with things that don't even corespond to what I say. I didnt say I'm your higher power. I'm saying that humans are the only power acting here.

It's not worth continuing this conversation. Defend your island of imaginary beliefs just like all the other deluded religions in this world. Your no different to any other human who believes without questioning. Easily manipulated.

Wow. More Christ-like huh? I never said I was "christ-like", wow! Sacrifice yourself huh? How?
No I don't believe all good is from prayer. My belief is subject to change in that it can only be strengthened.
Okay, so it's not right for me to believe in a higher power, because you, the high power that you think you are, said so?

reply to post by Wonders


Haha, yet again you spin what I say im some crazy way. You continually ignore what I'm saying. so until you actually display some reading comprehension I will have to refrain from posting.