Secede much? Or so you hope. The myth of secession.

So I've, like many of you here, noticed an alarming and growing trend of secede petitions on the white house website. Although to me this seems quite childish and this is just another move by the GOP/Tea Party types to further their agenda... which is clearly hate. Whatever you might believe or agree with this isn't the course of action that any self respecting human being would map out for themselves. Clearly by doing this these people are showing just how out of touch with society they are and how everyday they slip further into the abyss. Anyway I started this thread to talk about the legitimacy of secession and if any state actually could this day and age.

After the Civil War laws were put into place making this event something that wouldn't be able to happen again, the US affixed it's seal to Texas and all other southern states that tried to secede from the nation but then lost the war. The law in it's entirety can be found here.
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A snip it from the end of the description of the law: Now, therefore,
I, Andrew Johnson, President of the United States, do hereby proclaim and declare that the insurrection which heretofore existed in the State of Texas is at an end, and is to be henceforth so regarded in that State, as in the other States before named, in which the said insurrection was proclaimed to be at an end, by the aforesaid proclamation of the second day of April, one thousand eight hundred and sixty-six.

And I do further proclaim that the said insurrection is at an end, and that peace, order, tranquillity and civil authority now exist in and throughout the whole of the United States of America.

In testimony whereof, I have hereunto set my hand and caused the seal of the United States to be affixed.

Done at the city of Washington this twentieth day of August, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and sixty-six, and of the Independence of the United States of America the ninety-first.
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So what does everyone think? Can a state even secede under the current system? Does this law mean that states like Texas that were involved in the civil war can't secede?

I'd also like everyone to take a long look at themselves in the mirror and really think to your self why you'd like to secede from America? I'd just like to remind everyone that the same BS was being slung around then, but at the end of the day it was a black and white issue. Is it the same today? Are we still really so ignorant to think we have more rights then another human being? The hate I've heard and the accusations the far right is slinging around it outrageous. I'm just happy that clearly the nation is moving forward and the progressive mind seems to be winning the race, old world backwards thinking won't get us anywhere and hopefully this election was the start of the end of it. Thanks for reading I appreciate all THOUGHTFUL responses. Thanks.

I question whether or not the plain ordinary citizen can even be considered a valid petition I actually think a government official of the state has to do the filing. Which means the citizens sign a petition to the governor of their state and a vote happens and if the officials feel they should secede then the Governor signs the petition, but I am not entirely sure here?

reply to post by NoJoker13


maybe this will help

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reply to post by HeartOfDixie


Did you read the law I posted it came out after the constitution. That is a law stating the seal of the US is affixed.

As Ive said before the legality of secession is moot.

State A: We're leaving

Fed: No your not.

State A: What are you going to do about it?

Fed: .....

Seriously, what the hell could the fed do about it? Invade? That'll go over real well with the other states. Embargo? Not likely lest the seceded state befriend Cuba Oh noes! Cuba! Wouldnt work anyway since smugglers and a black market would spring up instantly.

What would the seceded state have to worry about? Mexican invasion? Chinese invasion? Yeah, because the other states or the federal government would let a foreign power park itself in their backyard. Any seceded state would be treated like Israel. Friends till the end.

reply to post by thisguyrighthere


I think once a state leaves the Union they won't be looked at so highly any longer. People turn coat very quickly when they have something else to blame their problems on, and I'm guessing if a state does secede every politician will label problems with the nation from coming from the seceded state. Hatred my friend has a historical knack of succeeding and thinking about invasion is a real scenario a state looking to secede should consider. Also since historically states only seceded once and a war started because of it.

It won't do much if there are no local officials supporting these petitions.. If the petitions are only signed by people unhappy with the new obama term it will not do anything if there is no official local gov backing up the people with this..

reply to post by NoJoker13


White v Texas held that secession wasn't possible, "except through revolution or through consent of the States."

"Consent of the States" is open to interpretation, but most believe a majority of Congress would suffice.

Originally posted by NoJoker13
reply to post by thisguyrighthere

 

I think once a state leaves the Union they won't be looked at so highly any longer. People turn coat very quickly when they have something else to blame their problems on, and I'm guessing if a state does secede every politician will label problems with the nation from coming from the seceded state. Hatred my friend has a historical knack of succeeding and thinking about invasion is a real scenario a state looking to secede should consider. Also since historically states only seceded once and a war started because of it.

edit on 14-11-2012 by NoJoker13 because: (no reason given)

I agree with that....but as far as these petitions, if they're doing anything at all, it's giving the government a good laugh over at the water cooler.

reply to post by Bauwser


Absolutely agree with this as well.

Originally posted by Bauwser
It won't do much if there are no local officials supporting these petitions.. If the petitions are only signed by people unhappy with the new obama term it will not do anything if there is no official local gov backing up the people with this..

And that's what I needed to know.

reply to post by ldyserenity


Probably giving them more then just a laugh... Ammunition for the next election? Maybe a bit of that too.

Originally posted by NoJoker13
So I've, like many of you here, noticed an alarming and growing trend of secede petitions on the white house website. Although to me this seems quite childish and this is just another move by the GOP/Tea Party types to further their agenda... which is clearly hate.

What is clear is that you sound like a left-wing extremist. The GOP represents big money just like the Dems. No difference. The original tea party was a good attempt to restore a government with Constitutional limits.

What you are seeing in these petitions right now is smoke coming from the wood pile. The rank-n-file have had enough. The extreme left can label it anyway they want but they ignore it at their peril. That's something King Louis XVI could tell you all about.

White House ‘secede’ petitions reach 675,000 signatures, 50-state participation

Read more: dailycaller.com...

With more than 28,600 signatures collected since Nov. 9, a White House website petition from an Arlington, Texas man has attracted enough support to trigger an automatic review by the Obama administration.

Petitions submitted through the Obama White House’s “We the People” program “require a response” from the administration after they have attracted 25,000 signatures.

Read more: dailycaller.com...

vote early, vote often

Now I don't think anything will come of this, because we lost our backbone.

Originally posted by ldyserenity

Originally posted by Bauwser
It won't do much if there are no local officials supporting these petitions.. If the petitions are only signed by people unhappy with the new obama term it will not do anything if there is no official local gov backing up the people with this..

and the locals officials are those mealy mouthed cowards I was talking about on another topic.

a copy of the original peace of paper would do better then this,signatures and so on. i do find strange after the comotions they would agree to such permanent terms. but as we know they tend to pass stuff on the low. so i would need further evidence of validity.but being"progresive" as you mentioned would this not be a step in that direction and of independence?why is it we need every one leaning on every one in a progresive idealogy?other places around the world have been doing such and we have been saportive of it. yet we seek to keep the great usa as a whole.when in fact it is far from it.and that i dea is working to disadvantage,look at eu,russia and so on.look in our own home.are we really that afraid of a boogieman? lets man up and claim our independence.

This nonsense of secession needs to stop. If a State really wants to secede, they will put it up to a vote. All this other secession noise needs to stop, it's not going anywhere and it's not productive to going forward. This is from a conservative voter. It really sounds pretty childish to me. They don't even have a plan on how they would survive if they were successful in their secession plans. They are as bad as the Dems that were saying they would leave the country after Bush's election.

Each side needs to learn how to deal with the other party being in power and working on compromises that are acceptable to both sides. Reagan did it, hell even Clinton did it.....it can and has been done.

Neither side gets the whole pie or even gets to decide what pie to make. Work with each other to find common ground.

reply to post by HeartOfDixie


Obviously, none of these posters visited the link and read what you posted. It seems quite clear that if a state convention of the people in that state decide to seceed, there's no prohibition against it in the constitution.

But hey, who around here on ATS reads anything but the OP (or maybe even just the title of the OP) before posting anyway.

ganjoa

I don't think it is possible and I don't think it would be all that bright of a move.

Shiz happens and these chest beaters are being to emotional right now to think clearly. Earthquakes, Hurricanes, Tornadoes...etc...etc...etc. They might be a little p!ssed off right now, but just like New Jersey's Chris Christie, when the shiz hits the fan, Uncle Sam can be a handy family member to have on your side.

No matter how clever you think your state operations are, they are still based on the same model that is sucking air in Washington...they will not be any more proficient. What would you change it to? Hierarchy? Monarchy? Oligarchy? Plutocracy? Theocracy? Fascist? Nationalist? Secularist? Communist? Socialist? Beginning to see a picture here?

When you look at the alternatives, the model we try to work with is still the best model and it ain't so great.

reply to post by jcarpenter


So giving factual information makes me a left-wing extremist? I suppose you must be a right wing extremist then, and I also think that since the same states that were the front runners in the civil war seem to be at the head of this movement that racism is also a big reason for it. So in short you must be a racist, sorry for calling you a right-wing extremist that was hasty of me.