You Have the Right to Peacefully Leave The United States

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posted on Nov, 14 2012 @ 04:57 AM
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The States, on the other hand, do not ...

You have the right to sell off your assets pay what you owe to the IRS and walk away, free and clear. As a free citizen of the United States be thankful for that, people instead get angry about this, very expensive right but it is yours regardless.

The states within this Union according to the Supreme Court do not ...


Do states even have a right to secede anymore? The answer, according to arguably the most respected conservative Justice of the United States Supreme Court, is an unequivocal “no.”


The alleged letter written by Justice Scalia in reply to a screenwriter who was exploring this topic in a project.


I am afraid I cannot be of much help with your problem, principally because I cannot imagine that such a question could ever reach the Supreme Court. To begin with, the answer is clear. If there was any constitutional issue resolved by the Civil War, it is that there is no right to secede. (Hence, in the Pledge of Allegiance, “one Nation, indivisible.”) Secondly, I find it difficult to envision who the parties to this lawsuit might be. Is the State suing the United States for a declaratory judgment? But the United States cannot be sued without its consent, and it has not consented to this sort of suit.

I am sure that poetic license can overcome all that — but you do not need legal advice for that. Good luck with your screenplay.
Source

"one Nation, indivisible."

I believe what the Justice was refering to in the letter was Texas vs White in 1869 where the United States Supreme Court ruled;


In accepting original jurisdiction, the court ruled that Texas had remained a state ever since it first joined the Union, despite its joining the Confederate States of America and its being under military rule at the time of the decision in the case. In deciding the merits of the bond issue, the court further held that the Constitution did not permit states to unilaterally secede from the United States, and that the ordinances of secession, and all the acts of the legislatures within seceding states intended to give effect to such ordinances, were "absolutely null"


Many people cite this quote most often,


The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants.


But I remind them they are taking one sentence from a letter and taking it out of context, read it again ...


"Yet where does this anarchy exist? Where did it ever exist, except in the single instance of Massachusetts? And can history produce an instance of a rebellion so honourably conducted? I say nothing of it's motives. They were founded in ignorance, not wickedness. God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions, it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. And what country can preserve its liberties, if it's rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure."



"I say nothing of it's motives. They were founded in ignorance, not wickedness"

Jefferson seems to admire the uprising, although he clearly believes it was wrong.


"The remedy is to set them right as to the facts, pardon and pacify them."

Ah, the original "Deny Ignorance" quote


So are these petition's our generation's warning, our "spirit of resistance"?

Short of picking up arms to try and free a/the State/s and having $663.84 billion dollars of military provide you with the "remedy" to remind you of the "facts" nothing legally can be done about it. Things were put in motion, changed and rewrote long before any of us got here, it is what it is. The only way to change the system is from within, violence is not the answer and will not work.

Regardless, you do have a right, the right to end your Citizenship of the United States of America, sell off your assets, pay off your debt and leave. The States in this Union according to Supreme Court do not.

Let me be clear, I am not saying if you do not like how things are going in this country you should leave, I am just reminding you that you have the right that the States do not, to leave the Union.
edit on 14-11-2012 by Tazkven because: (no reason given)




posted on Nov, 14 2012 @ 08:11 AM
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On the other hand, you can just leave, keep your "citizenship", make no payments to the IRS and take your possessions/assets with you - you can always rent your real property (although I'd sell mine and reinvest elsewhere).
No need to "renounce" you citizenship - if you did, you might have to give up your passport which would eliminate the possibility of leaving the country "legally".

ganjoa

edit on 14-11-2012 by ganjoa because: missed a word



posted on Nov, 14 2012 @ 10:19 AM
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reply to post by ganjoa
 


Good point, dual citizenship is an option instead of expatriating and maybe not as final or expensive (I am not sure which option is more cost effective but from what I have read the latter is very expensive). I wonder how many of those who do want to secede would go the route of dual citizenship instead of renunciation if it did happen. Most would probably want to have their cake and eat it too which would defeat the whole purpose.

But keeping in the spirit of "the petitions to secede" and how they are worded and since the states do not have the legal right to do so, a citizen's right of renunciation is the only option for the petitioners and what they are asking for.



posted on Nov, 14 2012 @ 10:20 AM
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Anyone know the laws of Spain concerning immigrants?



posted on Nov, 14 2012 @ 10:31 AM
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reply to post by Tazkven
 


Thanks for the reply BUT I never mentioned dual citizenship - that is a very limited option and expensive - it wouldn't be recommended. There are US Citizen expatriates all over the world living as normal residents of their respective new homes. Citizenship isn't an issue. Of course, the IRS wants its' tax money regardless of where a US citizen lives in the world, but it's doubtful there would be any repercussions until and unless you returned to the USA.

ganjoa



posted on Nov, 14 2012 @ 10:39 AM
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I also have the right to:

1.) Freedom of speech and opinion
2.) The right to bear arms
3.) Demand of my government a redress of grievances
4.) The right to privacy and the right to be free from unreasonable searches and seizures
5.) The right of Habeus Corpus

So, clearly you can see I have a great number of rights. Sadly, Odumbass doesn't really care as he has seen fit to diminish my capacity to exercise those rights throughout his tenure as puppet... er, president!

Rather than run away so the liberals can have their Communist utopia, I have decided to stay here and fight for the country as it was intended by our Founding Fathers.

By the same token... you also have the right to get the hell out! See? I can play too!


ETA: Did I just see a Supreme Court Justice cite the Pledge of Allegiance as documentary proof of the absence of a state's right to leave the union??? I'm sorry... I simply can't recall the Pledge of Allegiance being legal precedent. I think I might have just uncovered something else wrong with this country - The SCOTUS doesn't even understand case law!
edit on 14-11-2012 by kozmo because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 14 2012 @ 10:55 AM
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Originally posted by kozmo
I also have the right to:

1.) Freedom of speech and opinion
2.) The right to bear arms
3.) Demand of my government a redress of grievances
4.) The right to privacy and the right to be free from unreasonable searches and seizures
5.) The right of Habeus Corpus

So, clearly you can see I have a great number of rights. Sadly, Odumbass doesn't really care as he has seen fit to diminish my capacity to exercise those rights throughout his tenure as puppet... er, president!

Rather than run away so the liberals can have their Communist utopia, I have decided to stay here and fight for the country as it was intended by our Founding Fathers.

By the same token... you also have the right to get the hell out! See? I can play too!


You have obviously missed the point, didn't read the OP or need to brush up on your reading comprehension skills.

I never said anyone should "get the hell out" I said, the states have no right to secede the Union and the only option for a person along the lines of how the petition's are worded was to renounce their citizenship.

The Founding Fathers intended many things, that was changed before we ever got here. Slavery being one ... So you want to bring slavery back too?

I am also curious about what your definition is of "fighting for the country"? Taking up arms against the government, to make change from within by peaceful means, some other course of action or are you really saying you want to fight against the country?



posted on Nov, 14 2012 @ 10:57 AM
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reply to post by Tazkven
 


Taz... I know that. My point was a mere follow-on to your points. Apologies - should have clarified who my audience was. It was not direct AT you, but to those who would advocate the "Get the hell out" attitude.


ETA: "Fighting for my country" doesn't mean grabbing a rifle. I am referring to the PEACEFUL pressure that can be exerted upon a government to REQUIRE that they recognize their place as SERVENTS to the people, not the Monarchy! In the Constitution, it was referred to as "Redress of grievances".

As far as a state's right to withdraw from the Union? You and I will disagree here. The Constitution was the contract between the Federal Government and citizens of the several states. It enumerated SPECIFIC powers granted the Federal government and states clearly in the 10th Amendment that whatever wasn't granted explicitly to the federal government in the first 9 Amendments, remained the sole authority of the State.

There is no other other authority afforded the Federal government by the states. Since such time (And we can discuss the myriad of things that have happened to erode our rights), the Federal Government, by fiat, has usurped State's rights and asserted its unauthorized authority over us. This authority exists because, and ONLY because, it is granted by the consent of the governed.
edit on 14-11-2012 by kozmo because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 14 2012 @ 10:58 AM
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Originally posted by resoe26
Anyone know the laws of Spain concerning immigrants?


I was actually researching that after you asked but got side tracked by a webpage showing pictures of the Spanish volleyball team. All I can say is ... good choice



posted on Nov, 14 2012 @ 11:00 AM
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Originally posted by Tazkven

Originally posted by resoe26
Anyone know the laws of Spain concerning immigrants?


I was actually researching that after you asked but got side tracked by a webpage showing pictures of the Spanish volleyball team. All I can say is ... good choice




I have family there, but I don't personally have citizenship which sucks.



posted on Nov, 14 2012 @ 11:05 AM
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reply to post by Tazkven
 


White v Texas held that secession wasn't possible, "except through revolution or through consent of the States."

"Consent of the States" is open to interpretation, but most believe a majority of Congress would suffice.



posted on Nov, 14 2012 @ 11:11 AM
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reply to post by resoe26
 


I think that is what ganjoa was talking about, some type of work visa or something to live in a place and not apply for citizenship and still be a U.S. citizen, I know very little of the subject to be honest but he seems to know more about it then I.

I have never left the country and most likely never will, all my family was here as far back as I can research we fought for the South in the Civil War and lost records do to court house's being set on fire in Tennessee and the other half are Native American.



posted on Nov, 14 2012 @ 11:17 AM
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Originally posted by Tazkven
reply to post by resoe26
 


I think that is what ganjoa was talking about, some type of work visa or something to live in a place and not apply for citizenship and still be a U.S. citizen, I know very little of the subject to be honest but he seems to know more about it then I.

I have never left the country and most likely never will, all my family was here as far back as I can research we fought for the South in the Civil War and lost records do to court house's being set on fire in Tennessee and the other half are Native American.


Wow. So your family has been here pretty much since the getgo. Very cool

You ought to check out some other countries!
I would say check out Mexico, but the drug thing there is a little unsafe.



posted on Nov, 14 2012 @ 11:46 AM
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reply to post by resoe26
 


I meant I would never move to live in another country, all my family is here. Maybe one day I will vacation somewhere beyond these borders, wouldn't mind too ... maybe after I retire.



posted on Nov, 14 2012 @ 12:15 PM
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Originally posted by kozmo
reply to post by Tazkven
 


Taz...


I can respect that and don't get me wrong I am not happy with how everything is turning out either.

I was going by what the Supreme Court said in the Texas vs White case and also the alleged reply by a Justice to the screenplay writer but as TopClass pointed out it is open to interpretation, although it seemed pretty clear to me by them ruling against Texas in 1869, maybe there is/was a loop hole in the wording to allow an act of congress but we all know about the saying "it will take an act of congress" and why it is said.

I think the meaning and the ruling is quite clear in that what was meant, no state has the right to secede the Union.
edit on 14-11-2012 by Tazkven because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 14 2012 @ 12:35 PM
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reply to post by Tazkven
 


The US doesn't entertain dual citizenship.



posted on Nov, 14 2012 @ 12:39 PM
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Originally posted by kozmo
ETA: Did I just see a Supreme Court Justice cite the Pledge of Allegiance as documentary proof of the absence of a state's right to leave the union??? I'm sorry... I simply can't recall the Pledge of Allegiance being legal precedent. I think I might have just uncovered something else wrong with this country - The SCOTUS doesn't even understand case law!



Glad I'm not the only one who picked up on that. I thought it was pretty funny, myself.

Hence, the pledge of allegiance...



posted on Nov, 14 2012 @ 12:48 PM
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Of course the states don't have the right to peacefully leave the union, just as the colonies didn't have the right to peacefully leave the Empire. The revolution was just a civil war until the colonies won.

Revolutions are always illegal until they've succeeded and the victors append the history books with "... and in the end, we were right."



posted on Nov, 14 2012 @ 01:26 PM
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Originally posted by resoe26
Anyone know the laws of Spain concerning immigrants?

Here's some info.

If you're a US citizen it seems rather simple.



posted on Nov, 14 2012 @ 01:33 PM
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Originally posted by daskakik

Originally posted by resoe26
Anyone know the laws of Spain concerning immigrants?

Here's some info.

If you're a US citizen it seems rather simple.


Hey thanks!!!!





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