I will follow Jesus , will you follow Mahdi ?

Originally posted by DeadSnow
reply to post by mideast

 

I will follow neither, I refuse to be brainwashed into creating a conflict over religious beliefs that were cooked up from fairy tales.

I will follow DeadSnow! At least we believe in the same thing!

reply to post by SimonPeter

Now the Muslim believes Jesus was the Truth and Light but not the Son of God and did not die on the cross . This is because if Jesus was the Son of God and died on the cross for the remission of sins then Mohammad would have no spiritual authority and be a fraud .

By that same logic, there was no need for Paul either.
Jesus said he had only come for the lost sheep of Israel and had instructed his disciples to avoid gentiles. But you believe Jesus, despite finishing his mission, specially chose Paul to continue preaching to gentiles.

It is imperative that they hold to Jesus failing in his duties and not being the Son of God .

"Son of God" is a title, much like how Jesus also had the title "son of David".

However, Jesus was the literal son of Mary. So to say Jesus was the literal son of God, implies that Mary is the mother of God.

Secondly, muslims don't believe Jesus "failed" his mission. I don't know where you are getting that from.

Originally posted by logical7
what i meant was you believe OT is biased and is forged by jews,

Yes.

why dont you have a look at other source that gives a better view of OT prophets and then decide?

That definately wouldn't be the Qu'ran. Muhammad stole bits and pieces from the Jews and Christians and threw in some other stuff from his own imagination .. HUNDREDS AND THOUSANDS of years after those people existed ... and then repackaged it as his own. There is no source on earth that tells an accurate and unbiased version of the Old Testament stories. NONE.

Prophets were the people of excellent morals and an example for their people to follow. ?

Yeah .. Moses was a real gem .. I hope no one follows his example of mass slaughter while keeping young virgin girls as sex slaves.

reply to post by FlyersFan

Yeah .. Moses was a real gem .. I hope no one follows his example of mass slaughter while keeping young virgin girls as sex slaves.

This is humour?

Originally posted by logical7
rather my arguement was "if some part is corrupt then be cautious with the rest too"

Then why do you cling to the Qu'ran? It's been proven to be a mess of corruption and errors and contradictions?

The Old Testament is just that .. OLD. Thousands of years old. The New Testament is MUCH newer and it's history can be traced. History was being recorded at the time the New Testament came into being. We know what the situation was and who the players were who were involved in the making of the New Testament. That's simply not present with the Old Testament. The Old Testament and the New Testament are really two different books from two different time periods but they are published together with the same binder.

Originally posted by AthlonSavage
This is humour?

It's sarcasm.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
Jesus was the literal son of Mary. So to say Jesus was the literal son of God, implies that Mary is the mother of God.

Yep. It does. But that doesn't mean that Mary created the soul of Jesus. No mother on earth creates the soul. The woman and the man just create the body. Same with Mary. She created the body, not the soul. She raised him and mothered him. Therefore, if Jesus is God incarnate, then Mary is the Mother of God. It only speaks to the human aspect of creation and not the creation of the god-head in Jesus.

At least, that's how the theologians explain it.
I can follow that. It makes sense to me.
But I understand that you don't believe Jesus is God incarnate.
So I get why you don't see Mary as the Mother of God.

reply to post by FlyersFan

So I get why you don't see Mary as the Mother of God.

im not religous but even i know that Mary was Mother of Jesus and Jesus was the son of God.

reply to post by Haxsaw

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: John 10:26-28

We can only have one Master.

reply to post by FlyersFan


There is nothing Logical about logial7 . He can not understand because he has a mission . To destroy Israel . Even though he admits that Mohammad was a putrid soul serving the Devil he must deify him because this is what he has been taught . All his buddies believe it and he has to stay the course . No one will kill a Christian for changing their beliefs , but thats not the case for Islam . The penalty can be death .

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by logical7
rather my arguement was "if some part is corrupt then be cautious with the rest too"

Then why do you cling to the Qu'ran? It's been proven to be a mess of corruption and errors and contradictions?

The Old Testament is just that .. OLD. Thousands of years old. The New Testament is MUCH newer and it's history can be traced. History was being recorded at the time the New Testament came into being. We know what the situation was and who the players were who were involved in the making of the New Testament. That's simply not present with the Old Testament. The Old Testament and the New Testament are really two different books from two different time periods but they are published together with the same binder.

have you read Quran at least enough part? Or just some articles telling what a mess it is? Or only the verses these articles quote?
.
Well you obviously dont believe that God can send revelation, especially after Jesus pbuh. paul closed the possibility of that in NT, you say you dont care what he says, but if you discard his contribu tion, your belief collapses and comes back very close to the islamic belief of Jesus pbuh.
So if paul and the church had lied then the NT you read may not be the same as Jesus pbuh wanted you to read.
So rather than telling me about Quran and Muhammad pbuh, you should do some investigation about paul and church, its not a small matter, its about your belief and you trusting these people!

Originally posted by SimonPeter
reply to post by FlyersFan

 

There is nothing Logical about logial7 . He can not understand because he has a mission . To destroy Israel . Even though he admits that Mohammad was a putrid soul serving the Devil he must deify him because this is what he has been taught . All his buddies believe it and he has to stay the course . No one will kill a Christian for changing their beliefs , but thats not the case for Islam . The penalty can be death .

i believe this and the One God who said it-
Be quick in the race for forgiveness
from your Lord, and for a Garden
whose width is that (of the whole) of
the heavens and of the earth, prepared
for the righteous,-
-Those who spend (freely), whether in prosperity, or in adversity; who restrain
anger, and pardon (all) men;- for God
loves those who do good;-
-And those who, having done
something to be ashamed of, or
wronged their own souls, earnestly bring God to mind, and ask for
forgiveness for their sins,- and who can
forgive sins except God?- and are
never obstinate in persisting knowingly
in (the wrong) they have done.
- For such the reward is forgiveness from their Lord, and Gardens with rivers
flowing underneath,- an eternal
dwelling: How excellent a recompense
for those who work (and strive)! The Holy Quran Ch: 3-verse 133-136.

reply to post by FlyersFan

The woman and the man just create the body. Same with Mary. She created the body, not the soul.

Wrong.
Mary didn't do anything to become pregnant, so she couldn't have "created the body".
In Jesus' case , God created the body inside her womb.

Also, the angel who gave the news to Mary said she was favored by God... and that she would give birth to a son.
The angel did NOT say "You have found favor with God and you will give birth to God"

Therefore, if Jesus is God incarnate, then Mary is the Mother of God. It only speaks to the human aspect of creation and not the creation of the god-head in Jesus.

This is your own theology.
Nowhere in the bible do we see Mary being referred to as "Mother of God".

By your words Scorpion you have admitted the obvious . Jesus is the Son of God ! And you are right ! Good Job !reply to post by sk0rpi0n

reply to post by SimonPeter

By your words Scorpion you have admitted the obvious . Jesus is the Son of God ! And you are right ! Good Job

What "words" are you referring to exactly?

I said in a previous post "Son of God" is a title, much like how Jesus also had the title "son of David".

reply to post by logical7


John chapter 15 tells us that Jesus is the true Vine and Israel is the Natural branches . The believers in Christ will be grafted into that Vine . And if the branches do not bring forth fruit the Father is the husbandman of the Vine and will pluck out the unfruitful branch and cast it forth . It will whither and men will pick them up and burn them in the fire . No where did GOD mention Mohammad or the Pope .

reply to post by SimonPeter

John chapter 15 tells us that Jesus is the true Vine and Israel is the Natural branches . The believers in Christ will be grafted into that Vine .

Muslims are believers in Jesus, as the messiah and the son of Mary.

No where did GOD mention Mohammad or the Pope .

Mohammad fulfilled the prophecies of Isaiah 42.
He was the servant of God who operated in Kedar and the wilderness, who shamed the idolaters.
No Israelite prophet ever achieved this.

As for the Pope and the others before him, muslims are not too bothered about them.
The Romans and their "church" utterly corrupted Christianity in just a few centuries after Jesus' "death". Their doctrines set the foundations for your christianity.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


You do lie by omission . Islam denies Jesus Christ as the Son of God is that not true ? Thus by your omission you have tried to say Islam respects Jesus when in your words you say Jesus cowered from his duties and did not die on the cross to complete the plan of God , the God of Abraham , Isaac , Jacob and David .
Isaiah 42 was written to Jesus Christ before he was Jesus the Messiah on Earth. That passage would not have been written to a Murderer, thief, liar and fornicator .
An example is verse 6 of Isaiah 42 . I the Lord have called thee in RIGHTOUSNESS and will hold thine hand and will keep thee for a covenant of the people , for a Light of the Gentiles . Mohammad was never Righteous and the Lord would not hold his hand . Jesus was the light of the Gentile .And there was Christians in the Arab countries ( Kedar ) until they were 600 years later persecuted by Islam and still today there are Christians there .

reply to post by SimonPeter

You do lie by omission . Islam denies Jesus Christ as the Son of God is that not true ? Thus

Islam denies Jesus as being the literal son of God, the way Christians see Jesus. Because it implies there was a relationship between God and Mary. Even the bible agrees with Islams teaching that Jesus was a creation of God. The angel said that Mary was favored by God and that she would have a son... doesn't mean God was the literal father of that son.

Christians ignore these direct statements and make Jesus "God", thereby turning Mary into the mother of God.

Isaiah 42 was written to Jesus Christ before he was Jesus the Messiah on Earth. That passage would not have been written to a Murderer, thief, liar and fornicator .

Your perception of Mohammad doesn't affect the truth.
Secondly, Jesus had nothing to do with Kedar and the wilderness and he did nothing to shame the idolaters.

An example is verse 6 of Isaiah 42 . I the Lord have called thee in RIGHTOUSNESS and will hold thine hand and will keep thee for a covenant of the people , for a Light of the Gentiles .

You seem to be forgetting that Jesus said he was sent to the "lost sheep of Israel".... and specifically instructed his disciples to avoid gentile towns. So Jesus had NOTHING to do with gentiles when he was on earth.

.And there was Christians in the Arab countries ( Kedar ) until they were 600 years later persecuted by Islam and still today there are Christians there .

There were Christians in Arabia, yes.
But the christians merely co-existed with the pagans and the idolaters. They did NOTHING to end Arabias idolatry. Only Mohammad brought an end to the idolatry of that entire region, thereby fulfilling the major prophecy of shaming the idolaters of Kedar and the wilderness (Arabia).

Originally posted by SimonPeter
reply to post by logical7

 

John chapter 15 tells us that Jesus is the true Vine and Israel is the Natural branches . The believers in Christ will be grafted into that Vine . And if the branches do not bring forth fruit the Father is the husbandman of the Vine and will pluck out the unfruitful branch and cast it forth . It will whither and men will pick them up and burn them in the fire . No where did GOD mention Mohammad or the Pope .

what are the "fruits"? Is it by chance good actions? Establishing truth and justice, taking care of the less fortunate?
And if thats not done, God will let put that unfruitful vine in fire(hell)
.
Believers in Christ(Messiah) right? Muslims also fit. Its not anything divine.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
Mary didn't do anything to become pregnant, so she couldn't have "created the body".

She provided the 'yes' to God saying she agreed to be His mother.
She provided the egg. She provided the womb.

Also, the angel who gave the news to Mary said she was favored by God... and that she would give birth to a son. The angel did NOT say "You have found favor with God and you will give birth to God"

Luke 1:32: He (Jesus) will be great. Men will call him the Son of the Most High
'Most High" = God.

Nowhere in the bible do we see Mary being referred to as "Mother of God".

It's inferred all in the bible. (for example John 14:8-11) Jesus is God incarnate. Mary is His mother. Therefore, Mary is the Mother of God. She didn't create his soul anymore than my mother created mine. (she didn't). She participated in the creation of His body, like my mother participated in the creation of my body.

sk0rpi0n if YOU don't want to believe that Jesus is God incarnate .. then don't.
I really don't care. That's your choice.
However, there is enough evidence in scripture proving that point, that the vast
majority of Christians believe that Jesus is indeed God incarnate.
And if Jesus is God Incarnate .. then logically Mary is the Mother of God.
And like all mothers, she participated in the creation of the body .. not the soul.

sk0rpi0n .. believe what you wish and be happy that you aren't being forced to 'convert or die' by some Mahdi dude'