I will follow Jesus , will you follow Mahdi ?

reply to post by FlyersFan


Fully god and fully man? Isnt that impossible?(ofcourse nothing is impossible for God)
but, a man with weakness, doubts, needs and God, omnipotent, All knowing, Without Need of anything? Can opposite qualities exist together? The only explanation is that he could be switching both these modes continuously.
So what mode was he in when he died? Man or god?

Originally posted by logical7
So what mode was he in when he died? Man or god?

The two can't be separated. He was both at all times.
What the majority of Christians Believe .. from the Catholic Catechism

464 - The unique and altogether singular event of the Incarnation of the Son of God does not mean that Jesus Christ is part God and part man, nor does it imply that he is the result of a confused mixture of the divine and the human. He became truly man while remaining truly God. Jesus Christ is true God and true man.

470 - Because "human nature was assumed, not absorbed",97 in the mysterious union of the Incarnation, the Church was led over the course of centuries to confess the full reality of Christ's human soul, with its operations of intellect and will, and of his human body. In parallel fashion, she had to recall on each occasion that Christ's human nature belongs, as his own, to the divine person of the Son of God, who assumed it. Everything that Christ is and does in this nature derives from "one of the Trinity". The Son of God therefore communicates to his humanity his own personal mode of existence in the Trinity. In his soul as in his body, Christ thus expresses humanly the divine ways of the Trinity:9.

472 - This human soul that the Son of God assumed is endowed with a true human knowledge. As such, this knowledge could not in itself be unlimited: it was exercised in the historical conditions of his existence in space and time. This is why the Son of God could, when he became man, "increase in wisdom and in stature, and in favor with God and man",101 and would even have to inquire for himself about what one in the human condition can learn only from experience.102 This corresponded to the reality of his voluntary emptying of himself, taking "the form of a slave".103

473 But at the same time, this truly human knowledge of God's Son expressed the divine life of his person.104 "The human nature of God's Son, not by itself but by its union with the Word, knew and showed forth in itself everything that pertains to God."105 Such is first of all the case with the intimate and immediate knowledge that the Son of God made man has of his Father.106 The Son in his human knowledge also showed the divine penetration he had into the secret thoughts of human hearts.107

Scripture clearly states that Christ was human and that He prayed to 'the Father'.
Scripture clearly states that Christ was God incarnate.
Christ Himself answered Philip saying as much.
Going by scripture .... the two can't be separated from each other.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by Akragon
There is nothing from his mouth that says he is "Fully God"...

John 14:8 Philip says - 'Lord, show us the Father" and Jesus says (14:9) “Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father." That's Jesus talking.


Anyways .. the point is that the vast majority of Christians believe Jesus is God incarnate (right or wrong). Therefore, they wouldn't go and follow some Muslim 'Mahdi' fella. Who would follow a mere human when you can follow God Himself instead? That's the point. That .. and this 'Mahdi' fella (who I dont believe actually will ever exist) sounds exactly like the ANTICHRIST in Christian prophecy.

Yeh i agree with your statement...

But let me ask... Isn't a mans son the image of his Father?

Apparently Jesus was sinless... the perfected man...

And IF he was perfect like God... Wouldn't that passage mean he is that image... Not the Father, but the image of the Father... Even Gods son?

This also falls in line with him saying "I and my Father are one"... Or the Father is IN me...

Read the very next verse...

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

IF he was God... Wouldn't he say I do the work.... Not my Father does the work?

I know Christians believe he was God... and they reach for any passage or verse they can to hold on to their God that came to earth...

but by his own words, he never made that the claim of being God in the flesh as john said...

And keep in mind... Jesus also has a God...

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

reply to post by FlyersFan


from what text are you quoting??
And no, he cant be man and god at same time, then he is faking if he shows he is doubting, scared etc when he knows it all!
You are calling Jesus pbuh a hypocrite!! dont do that.

Originally posted by logical7
from what text are you quoting??

I stated which text .. and gave a link to it. Didn't you read the post?

And no, he cant be man and god at same time,

And yes, apparently HE CAN.

You are calling Jesus pbuh a hypocrite!! dont do that.

Not even close.

Scripture says that Jesus is truly man.
Scripture says that Jesus is truly God incarnate.
IF scripture is correct .. then Jesus is both man and God incarnate.
And that is indeed what the majority of the main stream Christian groups believe.

THEREFORE .. getting back to the whole subject of this thread. Christians WILL NOT follow this Mahdi dude .. why would they?? The Mahdi is just a man. Jesus is, according to most Christians, GOD incarnate. Why on Earth would Christians give up following God incarnate in order to follow some Muslim dude? Answer .. THEY WILL NOT.

Akragon .. I"m enjoying this discussion with you.

Originally posted by Akragon
But let me ask... Isn't a mans son the image of his Father?

I get where you are going with that. I really do. But it seems that when Jesus said 'don't you know who I am? if you have seen me then you have seen the Father' .. it seems deeper than just an image of someone else. At least .. that's the feel I get from it.

IF he was God... Wouldn't he say I do the work.... Not my Father does the work?

IMHO .... Jesus was giving all Glory to God The Father .. as we all are supposed to.

Example - He was perfect and sinless and yet he insisted on being baptised. He obviously didn't need it. He did this to show us what we were supposed to be doing .. being humble and giving all Glory to God. I see Him setting this same example with the 'my Fathers work' sentence.


At any rate, Akragon, do we agree that Christians would NOT follow some Muslim dude (Mahdi) .. especially when that Muslim dude fits the bill for the prophesied ANTICHRIST??? Seriously .. reading what this Mahdi is supposed to do if he ever shows up (and I highly doubt he'll ever show up) .. sounds exactly like the Christian version of Anti-christ. (IMHO)

reply to post by FlyersFan

Scripture says that Jesus is truly man.
Scripture says that Jesus is truly God
incarnate.
IF scripture is correct .. then Jesus is
both man and God incarnate.

or scripture is confused and doesnt make sense, so someone must have made up something and added it making the scripture the way it is.
So on the topic, before following god incarnate one should check if its just an asumption.

Jesus = 'Incarnation' = fully God and fully human.

Christian Belief in the Incarnation

The Incarnation is a fundamental theological teaching of orthodox (Nicene) Christianity, based on its understanding of the New Testament. The Incarnation represents the belief that Jesus, who is the non-created second hypostasis of the triune God, took on a human body and nature and became both man and God. In the Bible its clearest teaching is in John 1:14: "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us."[1]

In the Incarnation, as traditionally defined by those Churches that adhere to the Council of Chalcedon, the divine nature of the Son was united but not mixed with human nature[2] in one divine Person, Jesus Christ, who was both "truly God and truly man". The Incarnation is commemorated and celebrated each year at Christmas, and also reference can be made to the Feast of the Annunciation; "different aspects of the mystery of the Incarnation" are celebrated at Christmas and the Annunciation.[3]

This is central to the traditional faith held by most Christians

FULLY GOD and FULLY HUMAN .. that's what the vast majority of Christians believe.

Wikipedia - Christianity

The mainstream Christian belief is that Jesus is the Son of God, fully divine and fully human and the savior of humanity. Because of this, Christians commonly refer to Jesus as Christ or Messiah.[4] Jesus' ministry, sacrificial death, and subsequent resurrection are often referred to as the Gospel, meaning "Good News" (from the Greek: εὐαγγέλιον euangélion). In short, the Gospel is news of God the Father's eternal victory over evil,[5] and the promise of salvation and eternal life for all people, through divine grace.[6]

Worldwide, the three largest groups of Christianity are the Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, and the various denominations of Protestantism. The Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox patriarchates split from one another in the East–West Schism of 1054 AD, and Protestantism came into existence during the Protestant Reformation of the 16th century, splitting from the Roman Catholic Church.[7]

Originally posted by logical7
or scripture is confused and doesnt make sense, so someone must have made up something and added it making the scripture the way it is.

.... or the Qu'ran and ISLAM are confused and don't make sense. So someone must have made up something and added it making the Qu'ran and the Islamic writings about a 'Mahdi'.

So on the topic, before following god incarnate one should check if its just an asumption.

So on the topic, before following a mythological dude named Mahdi, one should check if it's just an assumption.


ON TOPIC ... Scripture is what it is. It states that Jesus was both fully human and fully GOD incarnate. This is what the vast majority of Christians believe. Therefore, they aren't going to give up GOD incarnate to follow some muslim dude ... a dude who sounds a whole lot like what their ANTICHRIST is supposed to sound like.

reply to post by FlyersFan

Akragon .. I"m enjoying this discussion with you.

Then let us continue... shall we?

I get where you are going with that. I really do. But it seems that when Jesus said 'don't you know who I am? if you have seen me then you have seen the Father' .. it seems deeper than just an image of someone else. At least .. that's the feel I get from it.

How you feel about what you read is what matters...

It is much deeper then just "the image"... Jesus was the one man sent to show us how God wants us to live... to reform the garbage taught in the OT... The only man that retained his memory of God...

25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.

27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

IMHO .... Jesus was giving all Glory to God The Father .. as we all are supposed to.

Wouldn't that mean Jesus was not "equal" to the Father... as he said?

At any rate, Akragon, do we agree that Christians would NOT follow some Muslim dude (Mahdi) .. especially when that Muslim dude fits the bill for the prophesied ANTICHRIST??? Seriously .. reading what this Mahdi is supposed to do if he ever shows up (and I highly doubt he'll ever show up) .. sounds exactly like the Christian version of Anti-christ. (IMHO)

I don't really understand why a "christian" would follow a muslim in any case...

The premise in the OP seems to be comming from a bargining position... Almost as if the OP was asking Christians to follow another set of scripture simply because he agrees with theirs...

Perhaps im missing the logic

reply to post by Akragon

I don't really understand why a
"christian" would follow a muslim in
any case...
The premise in the OP seems to be
comming from a bargining position...
Almost as if the OP was asking Christians to follow another set of
scripture simply because he agrees
with theirs...
Perhaps im missing the logic

the logic is simple, will you(in general) follow/support mahdi if he is standing up for the right things? Or he would be labelled as AC just because he is muslim.
The other thing is that for muslims there was always just one religion and we believe Jesus pbuh will descend and join the believers in One God.(be it jews, christians or muslims)
Jesus pbuh isnt exclusive to a group when he returns.

reply to post by FlyersFan

.... or the Qu'ran and ISLAM are
confused and don't make sense. So
someone must have made up
something and added it making the
Qu'ran and the Islamic writings about
a 'Mahdi'.

Qu'ran is not inconsistent, it doesnt make Jesus pbuh fully two mutually exclusive entities.
And on the topic a bit different, when christians see Jesus pbuh taking sides with Mahdi what will you do? Call both the dudes ACs?

reply to post by logical7

will you(in general) follow/support mahdi if he is standing up for the right things?

Are you asking me personally?

No... i follow no man...

Or he would be labelled as AC just because he is muslim

Likely...

Christians like to label everything that doesn't fall into their point of view on scripture Anti-Christ... I've been called Anti-Christ by a few Christian members of this forum as well...

Either way, IF Jesus did return... Its very likely he won't be recognised by Christians or muslims... They expect him to return and wage war...

Which in itself is very unlike Jesus... so who knows...

reply to post by Akragon

Either way, IF Jesus did return... Its
very likely he won't be recognised by
Christians or muslims... They expect
him to return and wage war...
Which in itself is very unlike Jesus... so
who knows...

you judge a person by about 3 years of teaching? He may play a very different role in the 2nd coming. Prophet Muhammad pbuh spread the message peacefully for 13years, him and the followers suffered even died without fighting, after Hijrah that changed.
War should never be encouraged but even Jesus pbuh would have to take arms because sometimes keeping quiet any longer would be cowardice.

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by Akragon

 

Either way, IF Jesus did return... Its
very likely he won't be recognised by
Christians or muslims... They expect
him to return and wage war...
Which in itself is very unlike Jesus... so
who knows...

you judge a person by about 3 years of teaching? He may play a very different role in the 2nd coming. Prophet Muhammad pbuh spread the message peacefully for 13years, him and the followers suffered even died without fighting, after Hijrah that changed.
War should never be encouraged but even Jesus pbuh would have to take arms because sometimes keeping quiet any longer would be cowardice.

Unfortunatly i know nothing about what Muhammad taught... I don't study his material, nor do i care to honestly...

I can only make assumptions of him based on what i've heard... and unfortunatly i haven't heard many good things about him...

What you're saying actually sounds very unlike Jesus...

Love and war are complete opposites... One can not show love within the confines of war...

And by the way... i don't believe Jesus will return in the phyical...

I personally believe he meant his return will be spiritual... And it happened with the invention of the internet...

Churches no longer have control over peoples beliefs... we are now free to read and believe what we will without persecution.

Also why would i judge Jesus?

reply to post by Akragon


your reply that you know very little about Islam and Muhammad is a bit shocking to me but more so is your dismissal about it.
Your beliefs are a hybrid of religions but you would be surprised that they match with islamic beliefs a lot too.
You must have your reasons to disregard a major religion but i must say its not the way of someone open to new knowledge.
.
About Love and war, dint Jesus pbuh him said he came not with peace but with a sword to turn family/relatives against each other.
Why you think jews were disappointed with him when he refused to rebel by saying them to keep paying taxes. They assumed him to be the one prophecised just mistook it as it would be in 2nd coming.
By my saying that you judge him, i meant how you make up his whole personality by an account of 3 years.
And you assume it to be a spiritual coming. Many people have many assumptions, dont want to offend you, but ya after living in the modern age, a man descending from heaven is very hard to accept.
But then if you do assume that then the AC for you would be what?

reply to post by logical7

your reply that you know very little about Islam and Muhammad is a bit shocking to me but more so is your dismissal about it.
Your beliefs are a hybrid of religions but you would be surprised that they match with islamic beliefs a lot too.
You must have your reasons to disregard a major religion but i must say its not the way of someone open to new knowledge.

I disregard all religion... as it is mearly a tool for the religious authorities to maintain control over its people...

Own the monopoly on a persons beliefs and you also own that person...

About Love and war, dint Jesus pbuh him said he came not with peace but with a sword to turn family/relatives against each other.

Yes... but that is a very misused and misunderstood passage...

Why you think jews were disappointed with him when he refused to rebel by saying them to keep paying taxes.

They weren't disapointed in him... they wanted him dead...

They assumed him to be the one prophecised just mistook it as it would be in 2nd coming.

Actually... they didn't assume he was the one prophecied about... they denied he was the one...

and as far as i seem to recall... they're still waiting on their messiah...

By my saying that you judge him, i meant how you make up his whole personality by an account of 3 years.

Its all thats needed to know his ways... Thats why the gospels are special...

And you assume it to be a spiritual coming. Many people have many assumptions, dont want to offend you, but ya after living in the modern age, a man descending from heaven is very hard to accept.

You won't offend me...

We live in an age of deception... and if people saw anyone "ascending" from the clouds they would automatically follow whoever it was because of certian passages in their book

I would however, assume it was a deception.... perhaps a hologram designed by the elite... yet another means of control....

But then if you do assume that then the AC for you would be what?

Theres millions of them all around the world... Know them by their fruits...

reply to post by Akragon

I disregard all religion... as it is mearly
a tool for the religious authorities to
maintain control over its people...
Own the monopoly on a persons
beliefs and you also own that person...

without studying it at all? Why you choose to make NT your source? Why not any other texts?

Yes... but that is a very misused and
misunderstood passage...

how? Its consistent, when the correction in a previous religion comes from God, not all accept it leading to divide in even families.

Actually... they didn't assume he was
the one prophecied about... they
denied he was the one...
and as far as i seem to recall... they're
still waiting on their messiah...

the zealot jews who wanted to fight romans wanted to make him their leader and approached him to ask about taxes but then he gave his famous answer.

Its all thats needed to know his ways...
Thats why the gospels are special...

your thinking turns into a stand here not open to talk.

You won't offend me...
We live in an age of deception... and if
people saw anyone "ascending" from
the clouds they would automatically
follow whoever it was...
I would however, assume it was a deception.... perhaps a hologram
designed by the elite... yet another
means of control....

very likely, but do you think Jesus pbuh literally/bodily cant come?

Theres millions of them all around the
world... Know them by their fruits...

true, the AC that people assume the only one is the major AC, but there would be many minor ACs coming along before that, and dajjal in arabic means deception or one who decieves.

reply to post by logical7

without studying it at all? Why you choose to make NT your source? Why not any other texts?

I don't actually... just the gospels, and i like gnostic, buddhist, and hindu philosophy as well...

how? Its consistent, when the correction in a previous religion comes from God, not all accept it leading to divide in even families.

That might be our issue... I don't believe the scripture from said "previous religion" is from God...

the zealot jews who wanted to fight romans wanted to make him their leader and approached him to ask about taxes but then he gave his famous answer.

I know the story... but i don't see your point...

your thinking turns into a stand here not open to talk.

I disagree... i am always rational in these discussions... open to all lines of thought...

very likely, but do you think Jesus pbuh literally/bodily cant come?

Anything is possible...

true, the AC that people assume the only one is the major AC, but there would be many minor ACs coming along before that, and dajjal in arabic means deception or one who decieves.

I don't subscribe to the single anti-christ thing anymore then i believe Jesus will return in the flesh... That is christian theology... but anything is possible like i've said.

reply to post by Akragon

That might be our issue... I don't
believe the scripture from said
"previous religion" is from God...

so you dont think its possible that the scripture was from God and then men corrupted it?
Look at OT for christians, they capitalised "son","he","god" "father" maybe even "lamb" in verses which could serve christian theology.
Similarly the jews have put themselves in good light even by making the prophets look bad or putting in what they wish as if God wishes it.
And do you think just like OT, the NT cant be corrupted?

I know the story... but i don't see your
point...

my point was they thought him as their liberator who would be leading them in fight so they believed that someone like that was coming.

I disagree... i am always rational in
these discussions... open to all lines of
thought...

is that so? Then how can you say gospels are special and all that you need without ever reading Qur'an? I have read both, not whole NT but a large part and i enjoy and learn from what Jesus pbuh said and i am amazed at how much his teachings resonate with what Qur'an teaches.