Are Any Of Us Right Anymore???, page 5

reply to post by nixie_nox

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Ever see the movie "The Money Pit"? The problem is not the cost of health care. The problem is that liberal's think all problems can be solved by throwing money at it, usually not their money either. Giving more money to schools will not help them until you solve the real problem which is culture. To my surprise I found a thread on here where people actually understood it as they could not understand why with their kids in one school they did good but when moved to another they did badly until they talked to them. Then they found out that the culture there was you got bullied if you showed yourself to be smart.

Giving the government anymore money until solving the just throw money at it because it is not OUR money culture of federal employees will just be a waste. A prosecutor does not spend his own money to file charges against someone but that someone has to use his own money to defend. The IRS will keep a case going by asking for continuances whenever you show up in court for them to avoid losing. They get payed no matter what but how long can you keep taking off work before you are fired? The day you do not show up you lose.

For not wanting to see our money, which is our labor, wasted and burned by some idiot in government we are accused of not caring. Sorry not true. I quit giving to Red Cross and the United Way because of their waste but still give to the Salvation Army because they waste so much less. Clean up the waste in government. Show me we are not building anymore bridges to no where or airports for Biden to go home to, that the pork is no longer being given out and I think you will find your conservatives far more willing to give up some of their money. Actually FIX something instead of throwing money at it.

reply to post by HabiruThorstein

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Thank you. You put it far more politely then I would have. Merely a suggestion for those that think conservatives are so fanatical and insensitive. Go back through the threads and count those posts that are insulting and mark that post as conservative or liberal. I think you will be surprised. It is impossible to deal rationally with those that hate you even if they do not know what real hate is.

Originally posted by HabiruThorstein
reply to post by Renegade2283

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1 point I diverge with what would be considered the conservative point of view is: legalize drugs. Eliminates an enormous black market, saves money by reducing unnecessary law enforcement and prison populations (always a positive!), adds to the public coffers via excise taxes, and a concurrent reduction in crime eliminates a lot of young people from going the black market system.

Um, not to nitpick here, but isnt legalizing drugs a liberal point of view, not conservative? Just a little confused.

Also, I am probably more of a fan of reducing the size of the military than most of the Dems, much less Reps.

Isnt that too a conservative view point, not a democratic one?

There's nothing in the Constitution stating we need to be the Arsenal of Democracy, the World Police, or anything else like that. I do believe in having a strong, indeed even prohibitively strong, defense ability but it's time that Europe and Japan defend themselves on their own, they are big boys and don't need Mommy US anymore. I doubt in today's world we can go totally Switzerland with no alliances and pure neutrality, but as close to that as is possible without being silly to our Canadian brothers for example. Unlike Ron Paul, I don't think we can realisitically disengage totally, and we do need to acknowledge that there are real threats

I totally agree here, though I must clarify that Japan doesnt really have a choice in the matter. Are they not prohibited from having an actual military or something? As for Europe, come on, we are definitely in cahoots with Europe. And I see that it would be perfectly fine if we disengaged from the conflict in the middle east. All the countries that I see could become a threat, Israel could handle on their own considering how much support they have received from us already. Just a thought.

Another area where I think the standard conservatives would shout me down is eliminating the Fed, although a lot of the conservatives that I know are waking up to this bit of fraud. There's plenty on the illegality of the Fed elsewhere on ATS, along with the many ramifications of it's unsupervised activities.

Good man.

These are just a few, if you're curious about anything else, let me know!

With all that I don't see much room for you to be considered conservative. What are your views on gay marriage, or abortion?(I know they are petty social issues, but I am just curious.) Also, what are your thoughts on global warming, and separation of church and state?

Originally posted by Renegade2283

Originally posted by HabiruThorstein
reply to post by Renegade2283

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1 point I diverge with what would be considered the conservative point of view is: legalize drugs. Eliminates an enormous black market, saves money by reducing unnecessary law enforcement and prison populations (always a positive!), adds to the public coffers via excise taxes, and a concurrent reduction in crime eliminates a lot of young people from going the black market system.

Um, not to nitpick here, but isnt legalizing drugs a liberal point of view, not conservative? Just a little confused.

Also, I am probably more of a fan of reducing the size of the military than most of the Dems, much less Reps.

Isnt that too a conservative view point, not a democratic one?

There's nothing in the Constitution stating we need to be the Arsenal of Democracy, the World Police, or anything else like that. I do believe in having a strong, indeed even prohibitively strong, defense ability but it's time that Europe and Japan defend themselves on their own, they are big boys and don't need Mommy US anymore. I doubt in today's world we can go totally Switzerland with no alliances and pure neutrality, but as close to that as is possible without being silly to our Canadian brothers for example. Unlike Ron Paul, I don't think we can realisitically disengage totally, and we do need to acknowledge that there are real threats

I totally agree here, though I must clarify that Japan doesnt really have a choice in the matter. Are they not prohibited from having an actual military or something? As for Europe, come on, we are definitely in cahoots with Europe. And I see that it would be perfectly fine if we disengaged from the conflict in the middle east. All the countries that I see could become a threat, Israel could handle on their own considering how much support they have received from us already. Just a thought.

Another area where I think the standard conservatives would shout me down is eliminating the Fed, although a lot of the conservatives that I know are waking up to this bit of fraud. There's plenty on the illegality of the Fed elsewhere on ATS, along with the many ramifications of it's unsupervised activities.

Good man.

These are just a few, if you're curious about anything else, let me know!

With all that I don't see much room for you to be considered conservative. What are your views on gay marriage, or abortion?(I know they are petty social issues, but I am just curious.) Also, what are your thoughts on global warming, and separation of church and state?

edit on 17-11-2012 by Renegade2283 because: (no reason given)

edit on 17-11-2012 by Renegade2283 because: (no reason given)

Oh ok to clarify, my reply to you was to this question, your question after responding to my post on page 3.

"I want you to tell me if there are any presumed conservative beliefs that you don't personally subscribe to. Any at all, then get back to me."

So I went and posted a few things where I differ from what are widely considered the conservative norm. Namely, legalize it, and tax it; trim the size of the military; and make Congress do it's job by regulating the currency, not farm it out to a for-profit private enterprise. Conservatives are usually associated with being Hawks on defense spending, more so than Dems by far. Hope that covers the first bits.

As far as Japan's military, all the US needs to do is give them the thumbs and they will do it. They can amend their Constitution, many have wanted to in the past and if the US gave them the go ahead I think it would be best for everyone, Japan included. So while they are restricted at this time, it can be lifted with little fuss.

As for Europe, we may be in cahoots but that doesn't mean we should be in cahoots. There is no reason that 70+ years after the fact the US still has bases all over Europe that could easily be manned (if wanted at all) by European boys (and girls). I'm not saying it's something that could be done overnight but plenty of Euro's want us out anyway and I feel we should oblige them. It'll save billions annually. And the US will be getting rid of another slew of reasons for people to think we're too deep into everyone else's business. Middle East, yep, don't need to be there. I agree 100%. I don't know what the exact terms of unspoken deal with Saudi Arabia is however. Dropping the gold standard, the OPEC embargo and the subsequent denominating of oil transactions only in dollars all occured very close to each other but neither the Saudis nor the US govt has ever clarified exactly what deal was struck. So that particular scenario may have obligations we're unaware of.

Thanks and best wishes!

reply to post by Renegade2283

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Sorry, missed a few of of your new questions. I think the govt should stay out of marriage 100%. The institution initially was purely religious in nature and it's best left there. Govt doesn;t have anything to add. Ergo, if there's a church that wants to sanction gays marrying, go right ahead. I hope it leads to an end of all things related to spousal privleges (such as benefits) though since it clearly opens the door wide open for potential abuse. I think it's an issue that's been grossly overblown myself. Abortion, I have to divide my personal and practical sides on this. Personally, I have no idea when the spark of life becomes manifest. Either does anyone else. So I'm anti-abortion. However, it's a procedure that does exist, people will avail themselves of it, and it's best if that is done in proper medical circumstances. As far as the Constitution goes, it should be left to the states (I'm a strict contructionist, it's not a 'living document' subject to endless re-interpretation) so to make it universal there should be an amendment specifically saying so. Separation of church and state isn't too tricky, there's a prohibition against establishment of a state religion. If such-and-such county, or township or whatever put up a Nativity in front of city hall, that isn't establishment. Let it slide. Nativity scenes don't hurt anyone and anyone who gets offended at something that innocuous needs their head examined. If it offends someone that much, they should work for 1x pay on Christmas Day and prove it 8>D

Global warming, I am assuming you mean anthropogenic global warming of course. Given the facts as I know them, Al Gore is a Profit of Doom (he's into the buying and selling of carbon credits so he has a vested interest in selling Chicken Little to us). Does carbon dioxide add to the greenhouse effect? Yes, but it isn't even close to the primary component. The sun is kicking out energy at the highest rates we've ever seen, but when I was growing up the big concern was the coming ice age. And I am not that old 8>D I tend to be frugal energy-wise and recycle when possible because it's just a plain old good idea, not because of some researcher who owes his entire cache of grant money to a governemnt bent on adding more power by adding more legisation constantly, decides to come up with figures weighed towards what his particular benefactor wants to see. So personally, I see value in not being wasteful. But in an area where collective action might be a good idea, I want to see some better science before enacting draconian regulations. Per capita, the US citizen has been getting more efficient, and efforts to continue in that direction are to be applauded, but not directed by the hand of a government that clearly has an agenda.

reply to post by Hefficide

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Is there any hope for our children and their future? Are any of us in the right anymore? Have we all become so infected with propaganda and rhetoric that the well is no longer viable?

A form of mass hysteria maybe? A national/cultural growth spurt? Growth spurts can be painful

Our country is changing - there are people who are open and accepting of change - they go with the flow and react to the reality around them. Then, there are people who fear change and will rearrange reality to protect themselves. When reality becomes something they can't rationalize to suit their emotional needs their reactions can be extreme

I'm not talking politics - I'm talking about different kinds of people. They exist on both the left and right

I think of myself as a moderate - but who doesn't? :-)

To some of my own family members and friends I'm a communist - which says more about how extreme their views are than it does mine

It's not easy. The phone has been strangely silent since the election - and emails non-existent

I never said one word - not one, so I can't be accused of gloating - and I never said anything about the endless stream of right-wing propaganda I was subjected to prior to the election....

People are strange Hefficide - and we live in interesting times. Fear is in the air

Keep on keeping on - tolerance is our only hope for a future that includes all of us. You're on the right path - always have been

I forgot to answer your question - yes, there is hope - and much more than just hope

good for us

reply to post by Hefficide

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i myself am at the point where being right or wrong is staying out of the left or right paradigm. even then people just don't seem to get the fact that all this government is just a clever ruse to continually mess with poorly guided people. i can't stand people who think suicide solves anything. it's just admitting. hey you beat me, so i forfeit. i have known people who committed suicide and to hear from you about your kinsman makes my heart heavy. it frustrates me beyond measure to hear that this was related to obama being reelected. this government sickens me to my core. and we are to live and die at their whim? pah. i secede from all humanity

reply to post by rockoperawriter

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A few months ago I created a thread which stated that I was removing myself from all ideological labels and paradigms. I had reached a point of fatigue and also had come to the realization that aligning myself with any label tended to predispose others towards me - regardless of message.

For awhile it seemed to work out. I felt that I was able to get across my positions without having to wade into the mud and sludge so often infecting political threads. To me this was a rational approach. My only "beef" with the right, really, is in the realm of social compassion and caring for the disenfranchised. Something I have always felt is a universal concern. I mean, heck, even the staunchest social Darwinist is, in reality, only one major illness away from bankruptcy, unemployment, and destitution. We all are. Well, at least those of us who aren't billionaires.

As the election approached, however, I found myself sucked back into the fray. There was such extremism, from both sides, that it deeply offended my sense of decency. Threads about Obama supporters threatening murder and riot if Romney won. Threats of Romney supporters deliberately sabotaging the nation, through massive layoffs, if Obama were to win.

So many lines in the sand... and I found myself needing to clarify which side of those lines I morally stood on.

My pain, here, comes from such a simple concept. Love of country and a desire to find the balance that best benefits all involved. I LOVE that America prides itself as the land of opportunity - a place where a geek kid, in his parents garage, can start a Microsoft or an Apple. Where a good idea and the drive to pursue it can make a person successful. But I was also raised in the early seventies and was told that a man who was willing to work every day, and to truly put his back into his labor, would be rewarded with the simple things in life. A house, a car, some nice things, and enough money to feed and clothe his family.

It is my perception that in the world today - a Bill Gates would write DOS and would immediately be approached, promised the sky, and then deceived and robbed blind by some mega corporation. Then the people who were hired by that corporation would be paid just enough to live their entire lives in fear of ruin - having to cut corners at every turn just to make the over inflated rent on their apartment - long since having decided that kids are far too expensive an option to entertain.

The right probably agrees with much of what I think. They would tend to blame big government. The left would blame big business for these evils.

What I am screaming is that we're all right - and we're all wrong. Big business IS big government. Both of our ideological bogeyman are one in the same. These two different entities have become so incestuous and symbiotic that there is no separation of State and Corporation.

Now... how can we burn down the rhetoric, on both sides, until all that is left standing in this forest of lies is those few, tall and ugly, bits of truth that will empower us all to take our nation back?

~Heff

reply to post by Hefficide

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I'm afraid that, at least in my humble opinion, the answer is: no.

The problem is quite clear and you've pointed it out nicely: too many people have taken a "side" and there they stand by it, even though they both should realize that what they view as "the enemy" is really the same thing, just as you pointed it out.

The problem lays with trying to convince people otherwise. You can't tell people on the right that they are not seeing the whole picture. If you do, you obviously must be some leftist liberal crybaby.
You can't tell people on the left either, because they quickly point at you and say that you must be a right wing nut job, who's a war monger and caters to the elite rich.

Neither side will listen, or at least the vast majority will not. There are many reasons for it ranging from, most people just don't have the time to seriously look at it, and just pay attention to sound bites to that is how they were brought up or taught to believe and to think.

The only solution that I can see is to start over, and the only way I can see that happening in any real way is for a collapse to happen. Something just as bad as the Great Depression, if not even worse.

I've seen people talking about Open Rebellion, Civil War, etc, etc. But I can't really see that happening (unless the government went even more crazy, and it would have to be a LOT more).

But what I can see is the economy getting to the point a major collapse. THAT would affect everyone, including the government.

I don't wish that on any of us, as I remember the storied my grandmother used to tell me about the Great Depression, and it was not fun sounding at all. And unfortunately even if that does happen, there will be a long period of finger pointing still going on before people finally realize that pointing fingers is not putting food on their tables or clothes on their backs.

You said it Heff: the Corporations and Government are really one and the same in today's world. So the only way I can see major change in the government is if there is major change in the corporations, and the only major change I can see happening right now in the near future, is something ugly I'm afraid.

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