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Are Any Of Us Right Anymore???

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posted on Nov, 13 2012 @ 07:34 PM

IMO we need to build upon a foundation of our shared values and common goals and then begin to hammer out that which separates us all.
reply to post by Hefficide

I agree, well said. However, the partisan issue was alluded to in your post, and I took off from there.

Partisan politics is being played to a fever pitch now. People are very black-and-white in their thinking. The bifurcation of this country was deliberate, for it we were all united, this never would have been allowed to happen.

I do not see our media assisting in the unification of all Americans any time soon. Therefore, you have millions of people who are seriously divided, even within families.

Only a massive catastrophe can bring us together, to remind us that we are all Americans, and we need to stick together in order to survive and regain what has been lost. Until then, things are going to continue to devolve.

I hear your plea for unity and sane thinking. I'm ready to join that party! What is it going to take for others to also do so??

posted on Nov, 13 2012 @ 07:40 PM
link I am not the only one? Cause the last week has been like a nightmare for me here on ats. I didn't come to the forum over the weekend as I needed to step away and recoil in the mental fetal position after some of the stuff I read last week.

Then I think to myself this week will be better, let me drop in and check out wasn't any better! I read thread after thread about secession and I was overwhelmed. It actually hurt me to know that many people are that extremely unhappy about the election. Apparently, I was unaware of just how upset many Americans are. Well, I know now, and it frustrates me to no end. I keep thinking to myself there has to be common ground, we have to find common ground.....almost in a mental panic of sorts.

I love my country, I love it's people, black, white, democrat and republican, religious and non religious....we all got a seat at the table IMO and I feel like our nation has been butchered and we all, me included had a part in it in some form or another. I know that sounds crazy, but I cant put my finger on it or describe it any other way. I am very new to ats, only been here a bit over a year, and so I was not around during the last election cycle, but for those who were, was it this bad last time around? Is this normal ats post election frustration? I find myself hitting the search icon, looking for threads in other topics. I just think I need to refocus right now on several levels.

Heff, the experience you describe with your relative is terrible and I feel for you both. Your relative sounds like he hit some sort of wall and the election was the straw on the camels back. I cannot imagine placing that much emphasis on my political views, but apparently he did. I also feel for you because now your are personally affected by all of this, and even though you may not particularly like this relative much, he is family and that makes it personal, on top of everything else, you have that to contend with. I think i understand why you wrote this thread, and believe me in my own way I am right there with you.

posted on Nov, 13 2012 @ 07:46 PM
reply to post by nixie_nox

I believed he was trying to make a different point in his post. I was not addressing mental issues as I thought he was using the unfortunate situation as an example of what is wrong with our society. I think mental illness is poorly understood by the majority and I feel for anyone that has to endure it... including his family member.

In a world where everyone is looking out for each other, while you are trying to help the poor kid swimming in the garbage, someone else is helping you get that rent paid on time. It is a two way street. Most would call that Utopian. I would call it... preferable.

posted on Nov, 13 2012 @ 07:54 PM
reply to post by Hefficide

Does wanting the poor, sick, and disadvantaged to have access to food, shelter, and medical care really make me some sort of Stalinist monster?

No - that makes you honourable heff. Don't know what "Stalinist" means - care even less.

Am I the one in the wrong?

No, no you are not - those that persecute you for sticking up for moral absolutes are in the wrong - simple.

If not - then why are others so absolutely threatened by my views that they would openly discuss secession and killing? How can I have been raised in basically the same environment as others and, yet, have evolved with such a drastically different world view?

See, the problem with your rant heff is you cannot get away from using political words to describe your plight.

Sure, politics was the cause - it is NOT the solution. As an outside observer in the Election process I am gob-smacked that there are those who take anything that comes from the political arena as gospel when it could not be further from the truth.

Real freedom from this madness first comes from within. Show me a bullet that can kill an idea. Once action is taken to fulfil the idea then those that stand to loose the most will kill you. Dr Martin Luther King, JFK and a few others have attempted to spread an idea and have paid for it with their lives.

Fissionsurplus is right - choose your puppet wisely that way people will think they have a say. It is evident that you can choose whom you please BUT the agenda remains the same - that agenda is a one world government with all earth citizens chipped "for our own safety and security" - and in bringing it about the destruction of the US will need to occur - it is occuring, your OP is a testament to that.

Tiny little cuts, lots and lots of them - then you bleed to death. It starts with the family then the community then the nation then the world.

It is coming.

History will record this moment in time as the "birth pains" or the "darkness before the light".

Hold fast to your ideals heff - they are based on truth and the love for your fellow man - don't label yourself with political terminology - leave that for others.

If you want a label then try this.......

I am a warrior of the light, a lover of truth and a protector of those less fortunate than myself.

posted on Nov, 13 2012 @ 07:56 PM
As for your comment about wanting the sick to have healtcare, and food for the poor, there is actually much more to this then compassion.

Where the right are so shortsighted is they see it as giving away money to people they don't know.

What they don't know is these things DO benefit everybody.

With a healthy work population, you have much higher production. When people can get preventive care, they are out a lot less then someone who doesn't have healthcare.

People who are healthy have more income to put into the economy, and money to put away for retirement, instead of living on only government handouts, because intead of treating a full blown illness, they are able to nip it in the bud.

Children who receive healthcare, especially prenatal care, do much better in school, period. You have less disruption, less absenteeism, and a more educated generation.

A child who is healthier, and now smarter, does much better in the workforce. A child who eats better, has less incidents of obesity, are healthier, and have a better chance in the workforce. A child who can get their teeth fixed, has a better chance in the workforce.

Fact is, when you treat people like you care about them, they care about themselves.

The number one reason for divorce is money. The number one reason for bankruptcy is medical bills.

With healthcare, you will have happier families, and more families will stay intact, and less stressed parents can give better attention to their children.

What the right is worried about is the country's assests. The money that will go into this. What they forget is the citizens ARE the asset. It is people who drive the GDP. A healthier, educated workforce raises the GDP.

People shouldn't have to go bankrupt, and have their lives go down the drain because of medical costs.

posted on Nov, 13 2012 @ 07:56 PM
reply to post by Hefficide

Dear Hefficide,

Truthfully, I have seen the nation more divided. During the 60s it was pretty unpleasant at times. The difference is the ignorance and sensationalism. While the mainstream media sought to be dispassionate and moderate, today it seeks only to inflame and makes appeals to emotionalism. I offer a poem and some encouragement. I will begin with the encouragement.

We are seeing a world in transition, technology is providing opportunities for both good and bad. The vast majority of people are not involved in determining how the world will change and it frustrates them, they fear the unknown and jump to emotional conclusions. Fear mongers push people to overreact to everything and politics is now nothing more than the theater of the absurd.

A lot of people like to talk about they are "awakened". In fact, they are merely exposed to things that are far from new because the internet provides them with information is simple forms. A ten minute video by someone like Alex Jones does not make someone informed or awake. This shall pass, it has before, it his the birth of a new paradigm and birth is always painful and scary.

I am sorry that you are feeling challenged and for the disruption in your family life. I have always found you to be rather reasonable in your words and not prone to extremes; but, fear drives the masses to extremism and absolutism and there is much uncertainty. Peace.

William Butler Yeats (1865-1939)


Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: a waste of desert sand;
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Wind shadows of the indignant desert birds.

The darkness drops again but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

posted on Nov, 13 2012 @ 08:06 PM
I suspect your family member had deeper issues, then just who was elected president....however I agree many people seem to be going "nuts" lately.

My take on this is that people know on an "instinctive" level that life as we know it is likely going to change sooner than later.......there is sort of a mass anxiety, fueled by a multitude of propaganda from every direction and just "enough" knowledge to be dangerous.

I don't know what it's going to take, I was honestly very surprised a 3rd party didn't do better in this election. So now we have this ridiculous "over reaction" to the outcome, when in my mind, it really made no difference to the ACTUAL problems we all need to face. The take over of America is more sinister then most people can comprehend, and it has very little do do with people that need social programs IMHO.

Cheer up Heff.....all anyone can do is "check" thier own souls...and you seem to have a good one......enjoy our loved ones, pets, nature and a good laugh as often as had to have a "wicked" good laugh at the new avatars you made for Beez and Druid......

posted on Nov, 13 2012 @ 08:11 PM
All i can say to you Heff is this..

Do NOT go shopping on black Friday..

hope that makes you feel better.....

posted on Nov, 13 2012 @ 08:25 PM
It's the media (and ATS to some degree - myself included). What do we keep hearing every day? Fiscal cliff coming/ WW3 right around the corner/ Global Warming/ Nibiru/ Apophis, etc.

Just pick your favorite flavor of doom, it's readily available.

They're herding the lemmings towards the cliff.
Whether we join the frenzy is completely our own choosing.
I'm staying right here.
Y'all can have a nice swim.

posted on Nov, 13 2012 @ 08:29 PM
The Empire has lost it's way.

The Empires of Europe fell, even the Mighty British! They decayed from within. They went peacefully.

The Empire of Communism fell. They too suffered decay from within. They too fell peacefully.

The Empire of Capitalism will fall. Much decay from within. Cries of me, me, me. Never cries of them, them, help them, instead, me, me.

The question is ...... will it fall peacefully or will it suffer tragedy.

Yes, the left will rise again, but, I fear it must be from the ashes.


posted on Nov, 13 2012 @ 08:35 PM
reply to post by Hefficide

Chin up Heff,all is not lost! While some people have gone overboard in their post election reactions the majority of us are taking it in stride. I don't think any of us agree completely with any political party, we just pick a side that represents our own best interests at the time and go with it. Those who have become so fanatical as to consider ending it all just because their chosen candidate lost an election are those who were walking a fine line already due to any number of factors.

People have finally become disenchanted with their government and are screaming to the rooftops for change. It would not matter who won the election- this would still be happening regardless. Tempers are flaring and emotions are raw. When the MSM finds something else to raise their ratings maybe things will calm down a bit. In the meantime try taking a break, even if for just a day- you'd be surprised at what a difference one day without all the turmoil hitting you in the face can do.

I wish you well!

posted on Nov, 13 2012 @ 08:38 PM
I am afraid we are immersed in a culture which bases it's active thinking upon the fractured spoutings of Aristotlelian logic. Yes or no. Right or wrong. Heads or tales. No ifs ands or buts. Just this or that with no validity in-between. This foundational approach to reality has remained at the core of the development of western civilization from it's inception. Over lay this assumed axiomatic truth with it's step child, Judeo/Christian good or evil, and we find ourselves, thousands of years later, trying to build some kind of bridge to a future which remains beyond our ability to truly envision.

In the past, the space between our separate cultures was enough of a buffer to allow our various dot or dash belief systems to either ignore each other(peace) and or attack them and destroy them ( war ). This buffer is almost gone.

One of the strongest messages that continually blankets the western mind is that of success. It is touted by sports heroes. Never stop trying. Never give up. Give it all you've got. From the athletes earning obscene salaries for hitting a ball with a stick to the pretty faces reciting lines for tv shows. You've got to want it badly enough. Listen to any small town high school Friday night sports recap and the the message of the winners whatever school or sport is the same.
And when they loose the message is " we need to try harder"
These of course are generalities, but I think they go to the heart of the delimia you describe.

Memes don't like to be challenged. They depend upon not only adherence to, but faith in their validity. When that system of belief fails to produce the desired results, the blame is placed not on the meme but on the lack of sufficient effort to fulfill it's absoluteness, and I think this is where we now stand. Us or them. The more the meme fails, the bigger " them" becomes. When we set ourselves up for do or die the meme insists "do more"' or in the case of a suicide, die.

Secession?I think this is an elementary solution to the problem, which indicates that those who honestly prompt this solution have at some level, come to appreciate the impossibility of reaching an exceptable future from our present set of political memes. However this approach only seeks to repair the " wrong road taken" as it diverged from the true path since Clinton, or Reagan or Roosevelt or the inception of the Fed etc. Even going back to the constitution as some halcyon moment of if only we had remiained true, been more vigilant. Tried harder.

We have good reason to think highly of ourselves. One is that now, we can see more clearly than ever, how, in the past when we thought so highly of ourselves, we, were, so, wrong.

posted on Nov, 13 2012 @ 09:09 PM
It's surprising that people would be so unhappy with being the official opposition.

It's actually a great place to be.

In many democracies the official opposition still has some power and influence.

Yet, whatever happens they are not directly responsible, and they can criticize and moan about everything to their heart's contentment.

Then they can smugly point out that they were right after all whenever things go wrong, and people should have listened to them.

The sooner they learn the joys of whingeing and telling people: "I told you all so, but you wouldn't listen", the better things will become.

With power comes a burden and an uneasy crown.
Why should it be the desire to always have or represent it?

posted on Nov, 13 2012 @ 09:16 PM
reply to post by Hefficide

There are probably only a mere handful of people in the world today who are totally in the right.

And if that makes you laugh then the probability of you eventually becoming one among them, if not in this life then in the next, has just increased immeasureably.

Whoever gives up the NEED to be right and/or to make another wrong IS in the right according to nothing more than willingness and openmindness, and great sympathy and long suffering (just listening to them all profess their righteousness at the expense of another's condemnation is rather painful enough already as it is!).

posted on Nov, 13 2012 @ 09:39 PM
I see a lot and knew a few people who have framed themselves excluseively in vehement opposition with the whole of the rest of all humanity, in a purely fight or fight, repitlian brainstem reaction/response ME Vs. THEM and let me tell you, it isn't very pretty and pains me to no end to have to listen to without cessation. You know maybe this Christian brotherly love thing isn't all it was cracked up to be in the final analysis. However, that said, I just cannot bring myself to join them in that struggle, not only because it's even MORE painful, but simply because it's completely unreasonable and irrational, if not utterly stupid. I don't know everything, nor am I always in the right, but I am right to say that my friends and many of the people that I run across are totally bonkers, blithering idiots in their incessant complaints about others and the injustices of the world. It's their entire frame of reference and man - that's a heavy load to have to carry around until you're dying breath, and what if you were wrong?

"Come unto me all who are heavy laden and I will give you rest - for my burden is easy and my yoke is light."
~ JC

posted on Nov, 13 2012 @ 10:16 PM
reply to post by Hefficide
Hello Hefficide,

S&F for the excellent rant! I could not have said it any better. You are not alone in your thoughts and beliefs. Unfortunately, I am highly sensitive and cannot read very many of the political threads regarding Obama -- so much hate and fear is being projected.


posted on Nov, 13 2012 @ 10:31 PM
reply to post by Hefficide

One last thing.

And great rant yes, very much so. S&F

But I need some direction from you in the following regard

Originally posted by Hefficide
The breaking point for me came two days ago. A member of my family became outwardly and actively suicidal over Obama being reelected. To be fair, this particular member of the family has never been a pillar of rational thought - and has always had a TON of issues. But he has never been the type to self-harm. In fact he has always been exactly the opposite. Previously he would have said "I'm not killing myself - I'm here to convince the rest of you losers to do so..."

When I got the call that he was in the ER from a suicide attempt, something within me simply gave way. It broke. I don't particularly care for the guy. In fact about a decade ago he and I had a disagreement over the way he treats women and I very nearly ended up in jail for thrashing him over it. He's a jerk. Plain and simple. I have little use for him at all and he offends me deeply and frequently with his BS. But, still...

Suicide??? Over who got elected President???

After reading this, I'm confused here, and torn, but only because I do not know whether to either laugh, or to cry..?!

What do you recommend?


posted on Nov, 13 2012 @ 10:34 PM
reply to post by NewAgeMan

Based on personal experience both are equally as cathartic - and the only time one needs to worry is when one finds themselves doing both at once


posted on Nov, 13 2012 @ 10:35 PM
Heff... I wasnt joking when I said I just loved you and Beezer to death.. I see you both as very much the same.
Widely differing views, yet able to speak together meaningfully. You both are able to see the similarities in your ideas and ideals. In real life, we all have many more similarities than differences in our wants, needs, and what we want for our futures. Ive been alive a little longer than you and I can truthfully say this this is the most divisional time Ive ever experienced in my life between our citizens. Im not surprised that you feel the effects of this. Even in this thread.. divisional hubris will rear its ugly head.

One thing though, when the chips are down and the playing field leveled.. and we all realize WE ( all of us) are the "little people" .. this is when we will see cohesion. The sickening things I see here and on other message boards is that sitting back and just observing.. the people who are so hateful toward one another.. really want the same things! They are just so compelled by their god of choice ( donkey or elephant) to lash out at the opposing force.. they act like loons.... and dont see the similarities between us all. Of course, there are the frothing at the mouth types you can never reach, but for most of us.. there will come a time when we are leveled. It wotn be a happy time, but our collective idols will be of no great consequence.

Between many in many different cultures.. there is a cohesion beyond politics or income or any other division. Unfortunately that has been denied the average American for many reasons and most recently.. political ideology has been used against us I truly believe. Within my own family.. we have vastly differing political ideologies. Hell Heff, Im a spiritual Libertarian married to an atheist Republican! My oldest daughter is a liberal Obama supporter. My mother is a reservation living rep;ublican that was very active in the whole natives against Obama thing.. my dad was a BIA hating FED hating tribalist. My grandparents were democrats and one set were tribalists.. that would probably be considered domestic terrorists today. WE DID NOT FIGHT among ourselves. I also applaud my oldest daughter for making her own decisions rather than falling lockstep with her rather overbearing mother...... politically
I think what is lacking and causing the ruckus here at ATS, in real life.. and in your family.. is due to an inability to get out from under this " youre with us or against us" and the " Im a special snowflake and ALWAYS right dammit" mentality.. and the absolute obliviousness to see that we are ALL citizens of THIS country.. and we should be looking for similarities and consolidation rather than division.

If its any consolation.. you among a few others have been exemplary in your methods of expressing your individual views, yet extending understanding to those of differing views. I think it is your kind that will win the day.

posted on Nov, 13 2012 @ 10:46 PM
reply to post by Hefficide

You are absolutely right about this, Heff. The conservative religious folks have gone off the deep end. I am currently living with my parents, who are conservative, and can't get out of the situation I am in.

It just doesn't make any sense, no it is not wrong to help the poor, it is not wrong to be a good person, it is not wrong to treat women with respect, but for some reason religious people in America got the idea that being evil is following God's will. Well, it isn't.

I'm not sure how long we are going to have to put up with this darkness, but it is more like Satan than God, I know that for a fact - people are being deceived.

I have a feeling we are entering a very dark time period where those who profess to be moral are serving the Prince of Darkness.
edit on 13-11-2012 by darkbake because: (no reason given)

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