Are Any Of Us Right Anymore???

Hello again ATS... I'm coming here to vent a bit in the hope that doing so might bring me out of a mental fugue that has had a hold upon me for the past day or two. So, please, be patient with this post and the things I say. Once again, I am opening up more than I probably should be doing on an anonymous forum. Such is life, however, and I really do need to rant...

It's no secret that I have what people refer to as left-leaning principles. It is my nature to care about the people who would otherwise be marginalized. I've always been drawn into protecting others. It's my nature. I am more inclined to root for the anti-hero than for the obvious one. I feel an affinity for the underdogs and always have - even during the periods of my life when I was absolutely and totally at the top of my game and could get away with anything I pleased. I still never got into bullying the weak. This predisposition is what caused me to stop thinking of myself as a Republican some years back. To me that party started to preach a doctrine of economic elitism and exclusion and I simply could not morally follow down that path.

This decision has cost me dearly, especially in my real life - as I come from a very large family of hard core conservatives. As soon as I "went lib" - I was instantly and totally marginalized, judged, and banished from my prior standing within the family.

I've lived with that without complaint. I am a strong person, unafraid of this world and principled stands often to require the payment of a high price. I am willing to pay the proverbial piper if it is needed. Principles and honor matter more than personal comfort.

Having said that... it's not been an easy road. Even here, on ATS, much, much frustration has been the price of my positions and beliefs. This election cycle has made it all exponentially worse - as the nation polarizes into factions and, now, talk of Civil war and secession abounds.

So much hyperbolic stupidity... it's more than I expected and possibly more than I can emotionally endure.

The breaking point for me came two days ago. A member of my family became outwardly and actively suicidal over Obama being reelected. To be fair, this particular member of the family has never been a pillar of rational thought - and has always had a TON of issues. But he has never been the type to self-harm. In fact he has always been exactly the opposite. Previously he would have said "I'm not killing myself - I'm here to convince the rest of you losers to do so..."

When I got the call that he was in the ER from a suicide attempt, something within me simply gave way. It broke. I don't particularly care for the guy. In fact about a decade ago he and I had a disagreement over the way he treats women and I very nearly ended up in jail for thrashing him over it. He's a jerk. Plain and simple. I have little use for him at all and he offends me deeply and frequently with his BS. But, still...

Suicide??? Over who got elected President???

THAT, combined with the absolute and utter overreaction that we are seeing on a national level has me totally freaked out. More than freaked out really. It has me empty. Numb. Maybe even in a state of shock.

Has it really come to this? To a point where the only thinking is absolutist thinking? To a place where only dying or killing makes sense to people? Are we really this damned eager to tear down the whole of society simply because we have become so freaking self-absorbed and individually entitled that we abhor all that does not exactly mirror our own views?

Open up the ATS side and see what I am talking about. Dozens upon dozens of threads, filled with people talking about rising up against America because they feel themselves to be no longer free. HEY BLUE, HERE'S A CLUE! You're in a nation that is so freaking free that you CAN discuss overthrowing it and secession from it!

I am totally lost right now. I'm questioning even my own morals and beliefs.

Does wanting the poor, sick, and disadvantaged to have access to food, shelter, and medical care really make me some sort of Stalinist monster? Am I the one in the wrong? If not - then why are others so absolutely threatened by my views that they would openly discuss secession and killing? How can I have been raised in basically the same environment as others and, yet, have evolved with such a drastically different world view?

Maybe I am too laid back and liberal. If Romney had won I know, for certain, that I would not be on ATS right now promoting secession, discussing armed revolt, nor would I be in an emergency room having my stomach pumped. If that had happened I'd have simply said "Bummer. Now it's four years of policy I don't agree with" - and I've had then gone back to posting my opinions and views in an attempt to sway others into seeing my POV and hoping that it might influence them.

I cannot believe that we are really this fragmented as a people. I am left to wonder... how much of it is real and how much of it is contrived and caused by media? How much of this indignation is being fueled by pundits who are saying the most shocking things imaginable in order to boost their ratings and public exposure?

Why are people so eager to agree? Why are we now a nation of people who scream MURDER when a simple slap on the wrist would be the appropriate reaction?

Am I the only one who sees the truth here? That the very reason we can behave with this level of stupidity is because our country is in good shape and we have the luxury of being this asinine. We've become a nation of spoiled brats.

Is there any hope for our children and their future? Are any of us in the right anymore? Have we all become so infected with propaganda and rhetoric that the well is no longer viable?

I implore everyone who reads these words to do just one thing. Think about it - are we leaving a legacy of hope, prosperity, and humanity for our descendants... or are we burning down their houses because we've lost the ability to think beyond ourselves?

~Heff

Dude - I am so right all the time it's not even funny.

Once I thought I was wrong and I was right.

reply to post by Hefficide


The Savage State

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/2cb78abfee39.jpg[/atsimg]

The Arcadian or Pastoral State

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/32658d876efd.jpg[/atsimg]

The Consummation of Empire

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/12b7f51cf218.jpg[/atsimg]

The Destruction of Empire

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/b31082a328f9.jpg[/atsimg]

Desolation

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/c6a54a51d1be.jpg[/atsimg]

There is the moral of all human tales
Tis but the same rehearsal of the past.
First freedom and then Glory - when that fails,
Wealth, vice, corruption - barbarism at last.
And History, with all her volumes vast, Hath but one page.
- Lord Byron, Childe Harold's Pilgrimage (1812-18)

reply to post by Hefficide

Does wanting the poor, sick, and disadvantaged to have access to food, shelter, and medical care really make me some sort of Stalinist monster? Am I the one in the wrong?

The left shall rise again.

As soon as I "went lib" - I was instantly and totally marginalized, judged, and banished from my prior standing within the family.

If this doesn't speak as to the absolute stupidity many will take their Political leanings, I don't know what does.

To cause strife in a family over Politics is without a doubt, the nastiest side of Politics I can imagine.

Hang in there bud...

Peace

The guy who tried to top himself, what will he think when he finds out you've posted on a public forum what he tried to do?
I dont think you are the sort of person who would do such a thing as this, and while reading your post I couldnt help but be reminded of those various religeous types who arrive on my doorstep with a story to tell, while including the real message that was their real purpose for the story and visit.

I disagree with your message, I think people have plenty to be pee'd off about and should get more active about doing something about it.

reply to post by Hefficide

Am I the only one who sees the truth here? That the very reason we can behave with this level of stupidity is because our country is in good shape and we have the luxury of being this asinine. We've become a nation of spoiled brats.

Is there any hope for our children and their future? Are any of us in the right anymore? Have we all become so infected with propaganda and rhetoric that the well is no longer viable?

I implore everyone who reads these words to do just one thing. Think about it - are we leaving a legacy of hope, prosperity, and humanity for our descendants... or are we burning down their houses because we've lost the ability to think beyond ourselves?

I am a resounding gong on ATS so I'll just say it again. If you smoke, you get cancer. This will be the lot in life for anyone who places their faith in a leader rather than leading themselves. In the end, this is what your relative has done. I would venture a guess that the debt he was feeling in life was more to do with taking reward that was not earned than with another thief holding an office. Most people will create a mirror around the things they dislike. When they see the thing they dislike, they are really only seeing themselves. This is what most often happens when someone is a Bible hater and loather of God. They are really simply seeing their image in the reflection.

The fact that you are grounded in a higher degree of truth is reflected in the nature of you words toward giving. A person that gives has no need to take. They are filled already. Your relative that attempted suicide was empty and crying for help. Obama was simply his reflecting point to see himself. Most of us come here to ATS for the same reason. It's human nature. People have a natural need to control something and current events show us how little control we actually have.

I can say that I formally shared your anxiety over this life. I have total peace at this point because my faith is grounded on a solid foundation that holds the only answer for all of us. It's a simple concept and my smoking example is simply a parable to show the nature of the law of returns. Smoking causes a debt that is incurred by all the thieves in this world. We are all stealing what does not belong to us; what was meant as a gift. Knowledge in any form is not something we can take or fear. It is meant as a gift from God and will remain as such until the veil is lifted and we remember our previous estate with God. The longing a person feels for something higher is the evaporation of the water back to the source. All things in this life flow from a source and then return. The cycle of involvement to evolution of the process raises us to higher truths. We can also sink as your relative shows. Debt drags us further into the material and we see this happening to our leaders.

They are weighed down by what they take and the debt will be paid by them. Our faith rests in something higher and the peace we experience through faith and giving lightens the load. If taking easy reward causes the suffering of debt, then suffering debt on purpose always brings us to reward. You are grounded by the suffering you do for others and this expands your awareness beyond that of your family. Liberal or conservative is not a distinction that matters. Giving or taking is the only thing that can possibly separate use from ignore(ance) or bind us tightly to truth. The spiral upward is knowledge and right thinking. The spiral downward is the easy ride on the banister of life to the floors below. Anyone who takes that trip will be required to once again climb the stairs. This is true for the individual, nation or global society.

I really couldn't agree with you more

Be sure of yourself Heff as you are on the right track. If you could even influence one person on your point of view the world would be that much better.

S&F

Lines in the sand were being drawn for a while now...and people are starting to honor those lines as this "machine" runs its course. All things end and all things die and they make way and fertilize the foundation of what comes after...

Society in its current state....government in its current state...has used up its value, its worth, its obsolete, and unnecessary as it is now a machine of stagnation...

It will die and from it will come....????

I'm not entirely sure and I think that might be a sign of REAL change...

Aw heff, you big ol sweetie pie.

It is the time of year babe. For some reason fall brings on full mental illness, whether it be plain ol depression or full psychosis.

Also this week, my husband went into full crisis (we are seperated) I thought I was going to have to call the police and have him committed.

I think with the holidays looming and losing daylight, it just sets everyone off.
I really struggle with the blues this time of year too.

Your relatvie maybe using politics as a strawman for what is really going on.

As I always say, the equation for suicide is simple: people commit suicide when their problems exceed their coping mechanisms.

With your relative, most likely he was already almost there. It sounds like he is unmedicated and in need of serious help.

Originally posted by VoidHawk
The guy who tried to top himself, what will he think when he finds out you've posted on a public forum what he tried to do?
I dont think you are the sort of person who would do such a thing as this, and while reading your post I couldnt help but be reminded of those various religeous types who arrive on my doorstep with a story to tell, while including the real message that was their real purpose for the story and visit.

I disagree with your message, I think people have plenty to be pee'd off about and should get more active about doing something about it.

edit on 13-11-2012 by VoidHawk because: (no reason given)

I think you missed the point. Start comparing your situation to everyone on the planet. You will likely find that you really don't have so much to complain about. I think he said something about being self absorbed?

There are some people who have gone way over the top when it comes to which party puppet is president. Apparently, you feel that there is a definite difference between a democratic president, and a republican one.

I do not feel that way anymore. To me, it didn't matter which of them got to be POTUS, the end result will be the same. The days of us having a principled leader taking us in a direction that is good for the country is OVER.

All the people within different states starting up petitions for secession are not because Obama became president, as there are some blue states involved in this movement. My take on this particular phenomenon is that people are just so very sick and tired of the insane overreach of the federal government. For example, a state will approve something that the feds say is against their laws. The feds will go in and bust people who feel they are doing something lawful. We have a total disconnect between state's rights, and what the people in each state want, and what the feds say.

The way the feds are doing business, you would think that we're just one big territory, and there are no state laws. Yes, I understand the argument that fed laws trump state laws, but why should this be so?? We have more people in prison in this country than they do in China. Our only growth industries left are prisons, law enforcement, and health care.

No matter if one says they're on the right or the left, that automatically creates a divide, which, more and more, cannot be breached. I know that you're a Democrat, and that is your right, but don't be surprised by the intense division and hatred that is being lobbed back and forth across the chasm. It's been brewing for a long time, and has reached a fever pitch.

I want nothing to do with either party. I dislike them both, for the problems they have created and then failed to fix, for the give-aways to the federal reserve cabal and the big businesses, for the complete corruption and deceit when it comes to things like public health, the FDA, the EPA, the USDA, the CDC, etc.

As far as I'm concerned, our government is rotten, corrupt, and gone completely rogue. Trying to patch things up and pretend that we're all fine and dandy isn't going to cut it. We have reached a point of awareness which, to many, creates such cognitive dissonance that they cannot handle it. Some go over the edge, like your family member. Thankfully, I went through it years ago, was depressed for about 6 months, and then decided that the best I could do is to try and prepare for whatever crap and nonsense the government will next come up with.

My own personal opinion, and that's ALL IT IS, is that both parties have destroyed this country, and are nothing more than two sides of the same coin. Obama will not take care of those who need help the most, just as Clinton was the one who cut welfare (used to be AFDC, now is TANF). It's not a party thing, it's a corrupt government thing.

The people who want out of this insane asylum are speaking out. That's all that is going on. We're tired of the lies, the nonsense, the partisan bull crap, and just want it to STOP.

I respect your opinion and always enjoy your posts, but I'm having trouble with the partisan aspect of this particular thread. Just wanted to throw in my two cents, long and drawn out as it is.

Thank you for reading.

I believe women are still right if I'm not mistaken.

That guy wouldn't have got ran over by his wife for not voting had he remembered that

Originally posted by Hefficide

I cannot believe that we are really this fragmented as a people. I am left to wonder... how much of it is real and how much of it is contrived and caused by media? How much of this indignation is being fueled by pundits who are saying the most shocking things imaginable in order to boost their ratings and public exposure?

In your quote I believe that you are correctly seeing what is wrong. A lot of it is hype to play "sides" against each other while they gain Political power, ratings, etc.

I am very sorry to hear of the direction of your family members, as with other similar news of suicides to people killing their family members or whole families over election results. It has come to this? Hurting themselves and hurting one another. It's very alarming. If we don't come together as citizens of the US we will all lose. The fact is we will never all agree on issues 100%. Not until we can move on between the hyped divisions things will not change for the better. Otherwise the division by distraction will continue while these incidences of corruption(scandals, false flags, etc.) go on in the mask of sides played off against each other.

reply to post by LiveForever8

There is the moral of all human tales
Tis but the same rehearsal of the past.
First freedom and then Glory - when that fails,
Wealth, vice, corruption - barbarism at last.
And History, with all her volumes vast, Hath but one page.
- Lord Byron, Childe Harold's Pilgrimage (1812-18)

I wanna hang out in the third picture, and maybe see a little of the fourth. Perfect timing.

@ the OP. This is really Darwinism. I don't know what else to say about someone trying to kill themselves over a figurehead that really makes no difference in their meaningless lives.

No offence to you or your family Heff.

reply to post by FissionSurplus


I never mentioned either party in my OP. To me it's never been a partisan issue - political parties are simply labels and don't really hold any relevance in my way of thinking. I tend to think of people in terms of their stated beliefs - in the case of political affiliation this is increasingly a case of "liberal" vs "conservative" - and that baffles me to a a degree.

I agree with conservatives on many issues, including wanting a balanced budget, opposition to gun control, and the idea of a smaller, more efficient government. I also oppose the Fed - though I defer opinion often as I am not an economist and readily understand that there is much about global trade and finance that I simply am not well informed upon.

Partisanship should and customarily was secondary to love of country. This quality seems to be eroding and dissolving now. We're Americans first and partisans second IMO. Losing that is dangerous IMO - as it allows us to stop discussing the common good and opens the door for us only to discuss ideological differences... Fixating upon only differences is destructive to what we all hold in common.

IMO we need to build upon a foundation of our shared values and common goals and then begin to hammer out that which separates us all.

~Heff

I don't have any answers to offer you.

I have become so disaffected with the state of this country. I just have no vested interest anymore. The wheels fell off this wagon a long time ago. It will just have to run it's course, and whichever side of the mountain it falls off of, the results will be the same.

I do however, find it very interesting that you care so much about the political situation in this country that it is effecting you in such a way. Has it always been this way?, or is this a recent development due to all the extreme reactions and assertions coming from each side?

Whatever the reason, I might suggest taking a step back and regrouping. Maybe some type of vacation is in order for the Hefficidal one.

reply to post by fenceSitter


That is a cop out. Yes,some one always has it worse. Yes there is a child swimming in a landfill in Mexico, but that still won't pay my rent this month and keep my power on, the problem is still there. Though people have it worse, doesn't negate the problems you have.

Like I said, people commit suicide when their problems exceed their coping mechanisms. In fact, people in extreme circumstances tend to do better because they have a lifetime of skills to bank on, where someone thrown into a situation, is worse for them. I know a 18 yo kid who committed suicide when he blew his 25k inheritance. It was stupid, but that was horrible to him. He didn't know how to cope.
Many suicides are done by people with menatl illness, and their circumstances are varied. Mental illness removes their ability to think about their circumstances rationally. A woman in my support group had her husband blow his head off in front of her with a shot gun, over a fight over milk in the fridge. He had a mental illness, and since he was manic, his ability to rationalize was completely removed, and he did it to just "show her".

With that being said, sometimes when I feel overwhelmed, I go to the Holocaust museum, that puts things into perspective a little.

reply to post by Hefficide


We living in a crazy world created by the media, and he who owns the media controls the outcome, and fear and drama sells, and he who shouts loudest gets heard most.

The current world state is a megalomaniac sociopaths wet dream.
It's like lunatics are running the asylum.

Great post heff, nice to know there are still some sane humans here at ATS.

reply to post by watchitburn


A vacation might be in order!

As for how much it is bothering me? Not enough that I am dwelling upon it. In fact, other than my online time, I tend to not think much about it at all. The family member issue aside. That, sadly, is something I'm having to deal with full time as my sister is very effected by it, and she is the ONE person in my family I can tolerate on a regular basis. I love that girl.

The aspects of it that do effect me, however, do so in a profound way. Seeing the division truly does break my heart. I love America and want to see it prosper - not fragment.

~Heff