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ATS Exclusive: Substantial FOIA Release (Gen. Vogt's Oral History & Air Command Dissertations)

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posted on Nov, 11 2012 @ 01:43 PM
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I don't have as much time to participate on ATS nowadays, but I still keep an eye on the UFO forum. Though my attention has changed a bit from focusing on the hypothesis formation/scrutinization aspect of ufology to measurement, instrumentation, and multi-sensor data fusion. At some later point I hope to expand on this and further discuss the project I am involved in.

For now, though, I want to share three documents that recently became available through the US FOIA system. Since some of the pages include personally identifiable material, I redacted parts of the correspondence that would reveal address and contact information. Otherwise everything is untouched, verbatim from Maxwell AFB.

The three FOIA documents are:

  1. First USAF UFO officer, Gen. John W. Vogt's, 1978 Oral History Interview (677 MBs, 400 pages)

    The key area of interest for ATS being the brief section between pages 23 through 25:





    Note the similarity between what Gen. Vogt describes and how it parallels Capt. Edward Ruppelt's commentary in "The Report on UFOs,"


    Some phenomena are so rare and so little is known about them that they are always UFO's. The most common is the disc following the airplane. I've never heard an explanation for this phenomenon but it exists and I've seen it on three occasions. Maybe a dense blob of air tears off the airplane, floats along behind, and reflects the sunlight. Whatever it is, it gives the illusion of a saucer "chasing" an airplane. Sometimes it's steady and sometimes it darts back and forth. It only stays in view a few seconds and when it disappears it fades and looks for all the world as if it's suddenly streaking away into the distance.

    The Report on UFOs, 2nd edition, 1960, pp. 271-272


  2. Maj. Ronald K. Dutton 1967 Air Command and Staff College Thesis "An Analysis of Unidentified Flying Objects" (35.8 MBs, 66 pages)

    and,

  3. Maj. Jerry D. Stroh's 1971 Air Command Staff College Research Study "The UFO Debate is Still Active" (49.4 MBs, 89 pages)

A few of the pages appear to be photocopies of carbon copies. So the scans are faint. I spent a little time trying to improve the quality of the problem pages by adjusting the contrast. However I haven't done much else. Further touch ups and extrapolations I leave to the reader.

Any and all comments or questions on the FOIA process and the contents of the papers are open and welcome for discussion.

Enjoy!
-Xt
edit on 11-11-2012 by Xtraeme because: (no reason given)




posted on Nov, 11 2012 @ 02:00 PM
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thanks for sharing this. I love collecting these dearchived tid bit. it shows there indeed was and is a UFO program within the government.



posted on Nov, 11 2012 @ 02:10 PM
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reply to post by Xtraeme
 


This is great! Thanks for sharing this!
He states he was the first UFO officer in the Air Force, eh? Fascinating.
I love archives we can read now from the FOIA.
Star & Flag



posted on Nov, 11 2012 @ 02:43 PM
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Just posting to add my kudos to the heap. This thread is a gem, thanks for digging that out for us.

I really love this sort of thing...



"I've never heard an explanation for this phenomenon but it exists and I've seen it on three occasions. Maybe a dense blob of air tears off the airplane, floats along behind, and reflects the sunlight. Whatever it is, it gives the illusion of a saucer "chasing" an airplane."

-Edward J. Ruppelt.

www.lulu.com...


They just don't make guys with this nearly fanatical focus on science anymore, do they? Air blobs 'tearing' off the plane? Reflecting sunlight? I wonder how he tries to explain Vogt's purple one, at night, for an hour.

Great stuff and good to see your avatar again.

edit on 11-11-2012 by Xoanon because: .



posted on Nov, 11 2012 @ 03:24 PM
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Originally posted by zooplancton
thanks for sharing this. I love collecting these dearchived tid bit. it shows there indeed was and is a UFO program within the government.


I'm not sure if such a program still exists, at least in the US. Though there were known programs in existence as late as the 80s. If there is still a UFO program it probably is tied to the DIA and one of their more hush-hush areas of intelligence gathering. But, that's a topic for another thread.



posted on Nov, 11 2012 @ 03:59 PM
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reply to post by Katharos62191
 


He states he was the first UFO officer in the Air Force, eh? Fascinating


You're now one of the very few people who knows that little discussed factoid.
Even if you go through the more serious histories by Swords and Dolan no one seems to have really investigated Vogt. Actually the only document I have that discusses Vogt is the 1999 Proceedings of the Sign Historical Group. So kudos to Jan Aldrich! Hopefully the new document release will encourage more research about the early days of Sign. I'm sure there is a lot more to uncover.

reply to post by Xoanon
 


They just don't make guys with this nearly fanatical focus on science anymore, do they? Air blobs 'tearing' off the plane? Reflecting sunlight? I wonder how he tries to explain Vogt's purple one, at night, for an hour.


That's a toughy! I've always wondered if it is possible that there's some sort ionizing effect triggered by the craft interacting with the inner plasmasphere. However for it to be coherent and localized for over an hour means it would have to be a result from the exhaust from the twin radial engine. Though with a service ceiling of 26,000 feet it's a stretch. Not impossible, but why would it only occur on one side? More questions than answers. As usual.
edit on 11-11-2012 by Xtraeme because: Ha! At the same time I was writing the detail about Aldrich, Isaac was on the ball and caught my lapse--the man's a pro!




posted on Nov, 11 2012 @ 04:34 PM
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reply to post by Xtraeme
 





However for it to be coherent and localized for over an hour means it would have to be a result from the exhaust from the twin radial engine. Though with a service ceiling of 26,000 feet it's a stretch. Not impossible, but why would it only occur on one side? More questions than answers. As usual.


You know, its funny, I was left with the impression, even after several readings, that the thing jumped from right to left. Vogt starts off by saying that his attention is called to a light pacing at 'the wing' of the aircraft. Then he says it veers off and then paces the left wing. Because he does not begin by saying that the light is on the 'right', there is no way for us to know, but I am repeatedly left with the impression that that is what he meant.

I thought about that alot, and for some reason, the light jumping to the same location from right to left leaves me with the impression that it may, indeed, be an artifact of flight dynamics that we do not understand. It would be interesting to discover if the plane-pacing-discs are generally brighter during the day and darker (purple?) at night.

Pretty heady food for thought, because I tend to trust the old-timer's insistence that the thing's origins are mundane. Doesn't it almost always turn out to be so?

edit on 11-11-2012 by Xoanon because: .



posted on Nov, 11 2012 @ 04:51 PM
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reply to post by Xoanon
 



You know, its funny, I was left with the impression, even after several readings, that the thing jumped from right to left. Vogt starts off by saying that his attention is called to a light pacing at 'the wing' of the aircraft. Then he says it veers off and then paces the left wing. Because he does not begin by saying that the light is on the 'right', there is no way for us to know, but I am repeatedly left with the impression that that is what he meant.


Yep that was my interpretation as well. What strikes me as odd is why would it only occur on one side at a time? You would think it would be consistent on both sides if it was exhaust interacting with the atmosphere. Maybe it has to do with some sort of thermal condition? It's a tricky one!


I thought about that alot, and for some reason, the light jumping to the same location from right to left leaves me with the impression that it may, indeed, be an artifact of flight dynamics that we do not understand. It would be interesting to discover if the plane-pacing-discs are generally brighter during the day and darker (purple?) at night.


Great question! Unfortunately most pilots aren't going to spill the beans because they don't want to sound like nuts. =/ At least we have NARCAP.


Pretty heady food for thought, because I tend to trust the old-timers insistence that the thing's origins are mundane. Doesn't it almost always turn out to be so?


All things are mundane once we understand them.



posted on Nov, 11 2012 @ 05:03 PM
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reply to post by Xtraeme
 





All things are mundane once we understand them.


You betcha. I am wondering now if the aircraft, under certain conditions, forms an envelope of sorts around itself, and if the periphery of this envelope doesn't have some sort of 'lensing' effect. And maybe as the bird shifts slightly, under these unknown conditions, it gives the appearance that the light is going from one side to another.

Hrm.



posted on Nov, 11 2012 @ 05:20 PM
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Originally posted by Xoanon
reply to post by Xtraeme
 





All things are mundane once we understand them.


You betcha. I am wondering now if the aircraft, under certain conditions, forms an envelope of sorts around itself, and if the periphery of this envelope doesn't have some sort of 'lensing' effect. And maybe as the bird shifts slightly, under these unknown conditions, it gives the appearance that the light is going from one side to another.

Hrm.



That's something that should be testable in a lab. Put a bird in a wind-tunnel, a 93 lumen omni-light source off in the distance, load the thing up with cameras and then see what happens. I can't imagine it would be just a human perceptual issue. Heck I can think of several journals that would publish such a study.
edit on 11-11-2012 by Xtraeme because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 11 2012 @ 05:33 PM
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reply to post by Xtraeme
 





That's something that should be testable in a lab. Put a bird in a wind-tunnel, a 93 lumen omni-light source off in the distance, load the thing up with cameras and then see what happens. I can't imagine it would be just a human perceptual issue. Heck I can think of several journals that would publish such a study.


ATS needs to build us a research facility; aside from this one.


Just because I enjoy holding out the two extremes for comparison: I also can't help, when reading stories such as Vogt's and those of other pilots, thinking of Trevor James Constable's Critters. Could there be some life form in the upper atmosphere that gets curious about our aircraft, that we don't yet know about and understand? It really does nibble at the back of my mind when this sort of thing comes up. If that were the case, somehow, then it would be simultaneously very mundane, and very, very weird.

Thanks for the fun. Great thread, OP. More please.

P.S. Just to satisfy my need for daily doses Eldritch Horror, how about this: what if this hypothetical and unknown 'lensing' effect allows us to see Constable's Critters. Too late for Halloween?

X.
edit on 11-11-2012 by Xoanon because:




posted on Nov, 11 2012 @ 06:18 PM
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Interesting stuff and this business of the object staying on one side of the aircraft is definitely a deliberate move, note on a slightly bigger UFO scale the incident of JAL1628 where the pilot states:


When they were in front of us, the ships were positioned slightly higher in altitude than we were, but now they placed themselves slightly below the horizon where it was most difficult for us to see. The distance between us was still about seven miles to eight miles visually. When we started to see Ft. Yukon diagonally below us at the right, the sun was setting down in the Southwest, painting the sky in a slightly red stripe, approximately two to three millimeters and gave a bit of light but the east side was still pitch dark. Far in front of us there were lights increasing from the U.S. Military Eielson Air Force Base and Fairbanks. The lights were still following us at exactly the same distance; however, it was too dark to identify by only the lights whether or not they were the same two spaceships that appeared in front of us a few minutes ago. It seemed that we were flying in the lighter side and gave them the advantage of being on the dark side.


Full statement here www.ufoevidence.org...

Now I could quite believe that the smaller UFOs doing this may have been an Airforce test of some kind but the size of the object in JAL1628s case leaves a lot of unanswered questions.

We're talking about a 747 here.

edit on 11-11-2012 by Zcustosmorum because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 11 2012 @ 06:21 PM
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reply to post by Xoanon
 



I also can't help, when reading stories such as Vogt's and those of other pilots, thinking of Trevor James Constable's Critters. Could there be some life form in the upper atmosphere that gets curious about our aircraft, that we don't yet know about and understand? It really does nibble at the back of my mind when this sort of thing comes up. If that were the case, somehow, then it would be simultaneously very mundane, and very, very weird.


Well you're in good company. Astronaut Story Musgrave wondered aloud about just such a scenario.



Also, Fortean Times published a somewhat interesting piece on the possibility not that long ago ...



A ways back, I got on a somewhat similar kick, though more on the possibility of life developing in a nebula...


However if I was to speculate, there could be a "space bacterium" of sorts in far off nebulae using metabolic pathways to convert arsenic and/or selenium (found in interstellar gas) into organic compounds using energy from sunlight. Somewhat similar, perhaps, to photosynthesis in plants. Granted the creature would have to be pretty darn UV resistant. [Though] Arthrobacter's UV survival index was found to be comparable to those of Bacillus pumilus spores! So, hey, it's possible.

www.abovetopsecret.com...


I'm sure the universe has all sorts of crazy things in store for us.

All fun ideas. Thanks for making the thread more lively.
edit on 11-11-2012 by Xtraeme because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 11 2012 @ 07:07 PM
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I'm sure the universe has all sorts of crazy things in store for us.

All fun ideas. Thanks for making the thread more lively.




Funny, if you consider what we have been touching on concerning a possible 'lensing' effect, Zcustosmorum's post above us there seems to ratchet that concept down even further. If you stick to that vein of thought. Despite that, though, it is more exciting to entertain the idea of some kind of 'Critter'. Thanks so much for adding that stuff and your insight.

I found this video on YouTube last night. I would never post it as a thread on ATS just because there is so much wrong with it, but considering what we are discussing right at the moment, it will be fun to post here. It was actually just posted to YouTube yesterday and so is really brand new...



And this thread you might find very interesting...

The Cellular Choir

P.S. Dude, did Musgrave just suggest that there are 'civilizations' of these creatures that have been up in our atmosphere for 'millions of years' that are doing 'incredible things'? WTF!?
edit on 11-11-2012 by Xoanon because: What?



posted on Nov, 12 2012 @ 12:39 AM
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Originally posted by zooplancton
thanks for sharing this. I love collecting these dearchived tid bit. it shows there indeed was and is a UFO program within the government.


There was/nor is no UFO "program" (A planned series of future events, items, or performances.). Yours is a conspiracist statement. There was report gathering and filing away! There was nothing to plan since all that was happening was that people were reporting that they were seeing aerial phenomena that didn't behave as human aircraft does.



posted on Nov, 12 2012 @ 09:29 AM
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Fantastic thread, what a facinating read. In The "tether incident" they look like living organisms dont you think?
kinda jelly fish like.I wouldnt be suprised if like in the deep oceans, there are invertibrate type creatures that have adapted to exist in the upper atmosphere.



posted on Nov, 12 2012 @ 04:12 PM
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Originally posted by Xtraeme
For now, though, I want to share three documents that recently became available through the US FOIA system.


Im interested in how someone finds these declassified documents. is the US FOIA system, completely public, like accessing though a webpage. or do you have to jump through hoops to get a hold of tens of thousands of pages and read through them all lol.

Great thread, ill be keeping a eye on it.
edit on 12-11-2012 by OpenSource because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 12 2012 @ 05:54 PM
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This could very well be but I knew the General while he was Commander of AAFCE/USAFE from June 1974 until he retired. His USAF biography makes no mention of an assignment as an intel officer. www.af.mil... The General was not a big man but he was direct and forceful. I did see his compassionate side one time. As an Air Force Photographer I took many pictures of him and had some time to observe him as he was a good commander. My best,
edit on 12-11-2012 by airforce47 because: word error.



posted on Nov, 12 2012 @ 06:36 PM
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reply to post by OpenSource
 


Originally posted by OpenSource
Im interested in how someone finds these declassified documents. is the US FOIA system, completely public, like accessing though a webpage. or do you have to jump through hoops to get a hold of tens of thousands of pages and read through them all lol.

Great thread, ill be keeping a eye on it.
edit on 12-11-2012 by OpenSource because: (no reason given)


Each branch of the US government keeps a FOIA officer on hand to handle declassification of documents and to help make the information available to the public. The trick is making sure your request is detailed enough that the desk officer can reasonably fill the request without it having to take years of labor to find, collate, declassify, redact, and then ship the final physical product.
For popular subjects like UFOs there's usually a subject-specific webpage with PDFs to commonly requested documents. In the absence of a landing page there is often a searchable database. For example, below, are links to major FOIA releases (with a focus on UFOs) inside the US,

  1. CIA's electronic FOIA reading room — www.foia.cia.gov...
  2. National Archives Archival Database — aad.archives.gov...
  3. DHS FOIA Library — www.dhs.gov...
  4. DIA's FOIA electronic reading room — www.dia.mil...
  5. DOD UFO FOIA Documents — www.dod.gov...
  6. DTIC Information Centre — www.dtic.mil...
  7. FAA Electronic Reading Room — www.faa.gov...
  8. FBI Records (aka. "The Vault") — vault.fbi.gov...
  9. NASA HQ FOIA reading room — www.hq.nasa.gov...
  10. Navy UFO Research Guide — www.history.navy.mil...
  11. NRO Electronic Reading Room — www.nro.gov...
  12. NSA UFO Document Index — www.nsa.gov...
  13. William J. Clinton Presidential Library FOIA — www.clintonlibrary.gov...
  14. Dwight Eisenhower Online Documents — www.eisenhower.archives.gov...
  15. USAF Blue Book — www.fold3.com...


And that's only the tip of the iceberg. For most people, the several thousand pages linked above will amply satisfy their curiosity. However as you start to dig deeper and cross reference details you'll start to find holes in the document trail. Once you find a name, a project designation, a document call number, or anything specific that's not in any publicly available database. That's when you might get the itch to submit a FOIA request.

The next order of business is identifying the correct department to contact. For example if you wanted to know something about MCIAXO-3 (the designation for Project Sign) you would want to contact WPAFB or NASIC (National Air and Space Intelligence Center). If you're interested in Oral History Interviews you would want to get in touch with the Office of Air Force History. Finding the right department can be a bit of a maze, but the on-staff historians and FOIA officers are usually exceptionally helpful. Treat them nicely.


Once you have something to look for and you know where to send your request. Fill out the standard FOIA form and fire it away. However be prepared for the inevitable and dreaded "no records response" form letter. There aren't any simple ways to prevent this, but there are clever tricks to hack the FOIA system.




Hope this helps,
-Xt
edit on 12-11-2012 by Xtraeme because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 12 2012 @ 08:50 PM
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reply to post by airforce47
 


Originally posted by airforce47
This could very well be but I knew the General while he was Commander of AAFCE/USAFE from June 1974 until he retired. His USAF biography makes no mention of an assignment as an intel officer. www.af.mil... The General was not a big man but he was direct and forceful. I did see his compassionate side one time. As an Air Force Photographer I took many pictures of him and had some time to observe him as he was a good commander. My best,
edit on 12-11-2012 by airforce47 because: word error.


The scanned copy of the Bolling AFB biography is harder to read. So that's definitely a handy link! Comparing the two it appears the online version is almost identical to the first two pages of the unclassified printout. Though, unfortunately, I don't see a link to the personal fact sheet on the webpage. Drats!


xtraeme.picturepush.com...

On the fact sheet it shows John (I hope you don't take offense at me using his first name) graduated from Yale University in 1947. The Service section further reveals from July 1946 to Sept 1949 he was "Intel. stf. off. ADC, Mitchel Fld., N.Y." So his UFO stint happened probably somewhere in that time-frame. It must be strange, I imagine, to learn something new about a person who you considered an old comrade-in-arms. Do you remember ever hearing rumors about the story mentioned on pages 23-25? Or any other details? I'm sure there is a lot you could share with us.
edit on 12-11-2012 by Xtraeme because: (no reason given)









 
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