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Christianity and Abortion

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posted on Nov, 12 2012 @ 07:33 PM
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Originally posted by PurpleChiten
reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 


See, that's one of the problems. The picture you posted isn't from an "abortion". The radical right wing does this often. they take the pictures that are the most grotesque and attribute them, falsely, to abortion.


Yes Purple.

And - - - I know there are some Pix the anti-abortionists love to use over and over - - that came from a back alley illegal abortion clinic.



edit on 12-11-2012 by Annee because: (no reason given)




posted on Nov, 12 2012 @ 07:37 PM
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Originally posted by charles1952
reply to post by PurpleChiten
 


I think I see the idea of choice a little differently than you do. As you say, I might be one of those on the religious right that don't understand that, so I'm asking for help understanding.

Everyone I know is in favor of choice, so am I. By "choice," I mean freely selecting from among various options. Sometimes these options are limited by law. I could use some money, but blackmail and armed robbery are not among the options I'm free to choose from. As far as I can see, the abortion question is whether or not to include medically unnecessary abortions as one of the various options we are free to choose from. It seems more appropriate to label the two groups pro-abortion and anti-abortion, since it's not choice which is being debated but whether abortion should be an acceptable option.

Because we don't live in a dictatorship or monarchy, the people have a voice in the laws we live under. Those same laws describe what the acceptable options are from which we may choose. Except for laws which are considered to be unconstitutional, we are free to encourage or ban what we wish. We are also free to change those laws, and to try to persuade people to join our side.

Your last paragraph seems a little over-heated, but what the heck, it happens to all of us.

With respect,
Charles1952


I get very upset when the two sides click to "pro-choice" and "pro-life". Both sides of an argument can't be "pro". It has nothing to do with the "life" argument at all. People are either pro-choice or anti-choice, but they take on the term "pro-life" to try to put themselves on higher ground.

People who support the option of keeping abortion legal are NOT anti-life, not at all, so that side of the argument cannot be labeled as such. If they were anti-life, they would want to destroy all living things and that's not the case.

Furthermore, those who wish to keep abortion as a legal option aren't neccesairly supporters of abortion nor would the neccesairly have one themselves. They support it remaining a choice. Therefore, the side is "pro-choice". Those who do not want it to be a choice are "anti-choice", not "pro-life", especially since they are also the biggest proponents of the death penalty....



posted on Nov, 12 2012 @ 07:37 PM
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Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by PurpleChiten
reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 


See, that's one of the problems. The picture you posted isn't from an "abortion". The radical right wing does this often. they take the pictures that are the most grotesque and attribute them, falsely, to abortion.


Yes Purple.

And - - - I know there are some Pix the anti-abortionists love to use over and over - - that came from a back alley illegal abortion clinic.



edit on 12-11-2012 by Annee because: (no reason given)


Exactly. They are very dishonest in their portrayals.



posted on Nov, 12 2012 @ 07:41 PM
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Originally posted by PurpleChiten

People who support the option of keeping abortion legal are NOT anti-life, not at all, so that side of the argument cannot be labeled as such. If they were anti-life, they would want to destroy all living things and that's not the case.

Furthermore, those who wish to keep abortion as a legal option aren't neccesairly supporters of abortion nor would the neccesairly have one themselves. They support it remaining a choice. Therefore, the side is "pro-choice". Those who do not want it to be a choice are "anti-choice", not "pro-life", especially since they are also the biggest proponents of the death penalty....


Absolutely!

Over the years I've spoken to some very religious people - - - who understand Right of Choice.

While they would never condone abortion - - which they consider taking a life - - they support and understand an individuals Right of Choice.



posted on Nov, 12 2012 @ 07:50 PM
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Quote from Bone75www.abovetopsecret.com... www.abovetopsecret.com...

[image removed by staff]


Now let's talk about that picture for a minute and compare what you can plainly see with your own eyes to what's coming out of your mouth (I know, its another metaphor).

First a little about the picture, and by the way, thank you GideonFaith for sharing this in another thread.

The hand in the picture is that of Samual Armas at 21 weeks from the moment of his conception. He is undergoing surgery to correct his spina bifida, while still in his mother's womb.

Your entire argument is that life begins upon birth and the first breath...

So by your logic, when Samual gets older and someone asks him if he's ever had surgery...

he should say no?


I ask you the same question. If this child has no soul and is not a human being, then my vision must be broken. I see a human being grasping the hand of the surgeon. This is a living, breathing human being. How should he explain surgery done on him, since he supposedly has no soul?
edit on Mon Nov 12 2012 by DontTreadOnMe because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 12 2012 @ 08:01 PM
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reply to post by PurpleChiten
 





those who wish to keep abortion as a legal option aren't neccesairly supporters of abortion nor would the neccesairly have one themselves. They support it remaining a choice. Therefore, the side is "pro-choice". Those who do not want it to be a choice are "anti-choice", not "pro-life", especially since they are also the biggest proponents of the death penalty....


Here here! Excellently put....



posted on Nov, 12 2012 @ 08:12 PM
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reply to post by GideonFaith
 





I see a human being grasping the hand of the surgeon.


It's a reflex. Completely automatic, primitive response. I believe they call it the Palmar Grasp Reflex. Makes for a nice photo op but doesn't prove anything.



posted on Nov, 12 2012 @ 08:34 PM
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Originally posted by otherpotato
reply to post by GideonFaith
 





I see a human being grasping the hand of the surgeon.


It's a reflex. Completely automatic, primitive response. I believe they call it the Palmar Grasp Reflex. Makes for a nice photo op but doesn't prove anything.



You still didn't answer the question about the surgery. Now I have more questions since you seem to know what happened in the operating room with Samuel, his mother and all the doctors and nurses. Can you prove it was just a reflex? Were you there? Did you see it happen? If not, then you are grasping at straws.



posted on Nov, 12 2012 @ 08:49 PM
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Originally posted by GideonFaith

Originally posted by otherpotato
reply to post by GideonFaith
 





I see a human being grasping the hand of the surgeon.


It's a reflex. Completely automatic, primitive response. I believe they call it the Palmar Grasp Reflex. Makes for a nice photo op but doesn't prove anything.



You still didn't answer the question about the surgery. Now I have more questions since you seem to know what happened in the operating room with Samuel, his mother and all the doctors and nurses. Can you prove it was just a reflex? Were you there? Did you see it happen? If not, then you are grasping at straws.


Well, unless it popped up out of the womb and shouted "Yo, Dude! Wassuppppp!", then yes, it was a reflex.
(not to mention another issue all together that may make us think it was demonically possessed)

Even babies that have been born have those reflexes, they don't "know" to grasp with their hands, it's a reflex action. Even animals have the reflexes. It was a reflex.

Are you trying to assert that it was knowledgeable of what was going on outside the womb, made a conscious decision to reach out and grab the guy's finger as if to shake hands? Something even a toddler doesn't know to do at times? Are you trying to say that this is a "gifted" fetus beyond the level of what some teens are? Why would you think it was anything OTHER than a reflex??

Have you been performing satanic rituals and called forth a demon to possess the body of the fetus in hopes of better serving your evil overlord satan?? I mean, come on, there aren't a lot of options here when it comes to even a newbor baby, let alone a fetus inside the womb....



posted on Nov, 12 2012 @ 09:07 PM
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Originally posted by PurpleChiten

Originally posted by GideonFaith

Originally posted by otherpotato
reply to post by GideonFaith
 





I see a human being grasping the hand of the surgeon.


It's a reflex. Completely automatic, primitive response. I believe they call it the Palmar Grasp Reflex. Makes for a nice photo op but doesn't prove anything.



You still didn't answer the question about the surgery. Now I have more questions since you seem to know what happened in the operating room with Samuel, his mother and all the doctors and nurses. Can you prove it was just a reflex? Were you there? Did you see it happen? If not, then you are grasping at straws.


Well, unless it popped up out of the womb and shouted "Yo, Dude! Wassuppppp!", then yes, it was a reflex.
(not to mention another issue all together that may make us think it was demonically possessed)

Even babies that have been born have those reflexes, they don't "know" to grasp with their hands, it's a reflex action. Even animals have the reflexes. It was a reflex.

Are you trying to assert that it was knowledgeable of what was going on outside the womb, made a conscious decision to reach out and grab the guy's finger as if to shake hands? Something even a toddler doesn't know to do at times? Are you trying to say that this is a "gifted" fetus beyond the level of what some teens are? Why would you think it was anything OTHER than a reflex??

Have you been performing satanic rituals and called forth a demon to possess the body of the fetus in hopes of better serving your evil overlord satan?? I mean, come on, there aren't a lot of options here when it comes to even a newbor baby, let alone a fetus inside the womb....


I see even you still avoided the original question. Doesn't surprise me.

I am saying you weren't there and you must of never seen miracles in your life. In my life, miracles happen (maybe because I pray to God) and who knows what was the reason for the reflex. The Bible speaks of miracles, are you now God?

Your so funny, I forgot to laugh! Oh wait,
, you know me, don't you? I must of meet you in another life or maybe in space somewhere when I had an outer body experience I was unaware of. Yeah, I teach about satan. I teach that if you play with God and His people, you find satan to be your friend in the end. So, if that is what you meant by satanic rituals, then yes, I have those kind of rituals. But then you should of been aware of this since you know me so much. I need to pray harder than ever for Christians who are leaning the wrong way. That attack on me was so Christian, I can feel the warmth over here. Get it, feel the warmth? You warmth feels more satanic than anything I can manage!! May God help us all!!



posted on Nov, 12 2012 @ 09:12 PM
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Originally posted by otherpotato
reply to post by GideonFaith
 





I see a human being grasping the hand of the surgeon.


It's a reflex. Completely automatic, primitive response. I believe they call it the Palmar Grasp Reflex. Makes for a nice photo op but doesn't prove anything.



Whether it was a reflex or not is irrelevant to the question posed.

I have a feeling that someone who refers to babies as parasites is going to have that pic removed, so a timely response would be appreciated.
edit on 12-11-2012 by Bone75 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 12 2012 @ 09:13 PM
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reply to post by PurpleChiten
 


I don't see how you are ignoring the question.

Seems to me you answered it just fine.

But - GF used that same tactic on me because apparently my answer was not acceptable



posted on Nov, 12 2012 @ 09:20 PM
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reply to post by GideonFaith
 


You want me to look at that photograph and answer if a reflexive grasp indicates proof of a soul? Fine: no it doesn't



posted on Nov, 12 2012 @ 09:21 PM
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Originally posted by Bone75

Originally posted by otherpotato
reply to post by GideonFaith
 





I see a human being grasping the hand of the surgeon.


It's a reflex. Completely automatic, primitive response. I believe they call it the Palmar Grasp Reflex. Makes for a nice photo op but doesn't prove anything.



Whether it was a reflex or not is irrelevant to the question posed.

I have a feeling that someone who refers to babies as parasites is going to have that pic removed, so a timely response would be appreciated.
edit on 12-11-2012 by Bone75 because: (no reason given)


You are so right. They can't answer. It doesn't fit in their views of life. So glad to see you back on tonight.



posted on Nov, 12 2012 @ 09:23 PM
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Originally posted by Annee
reply to post by PurpleChiten
 


I don't see how you are ignoring the question.

Seems to me you answered it just fine.

But - GF used that same tactic on me because apparently my answer was not acceptable


Please share with me where you answered that question. I would love to read it again. I don't try tactics, I debate. Either you like it or not.



posted on Nov, 12 2012 @ 09:25 PM
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Originally posted by otherpotato
reply to post by GideonFaith
 


You want me to look at that photograph and answer if a reflexive grasp indicates proof of a soul? Fine: no it doesn't


Nope, not the question posed in the first post of the pic. You all are trying to dodge this one. If it doesn't fit in your views, then you have no answer?



posted on Nov, 12 2012 @ 09:43 PM
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reply to post by GideonFaith
 






So by your logic, when Samual gets older and someone asks him if he's ever had surgery...

he should say no?


Maybe he could say something like, "Not that I can remember." or, "Not that I am aware of."

The only way this child would know that he had pre-natal surgery is if his parents tell him. He had no awareness of it at the time, gave no consent to it, and has no memory of it.



I ask you the same question. If this child has no soul and is not a human being, then my vision must be broken. I see a human being grasping the hand of the surgeon. This is a living, breathing human being.


What you see is a photograph. Not a living breathing human being, that is what you are imagining the photo to be. What we see is the tiny, bloody hand of a fetus, that has been pulled through a surgical cut in a woman's abdomen, in order to better position the fetus for surgery.



How should he explain surgery done on him, since he supposedly has no soul?


I don't know how to answer that, because I don't understand the question.

How should he explain something he has no awareness of to someone he doesn't know....what is a soul?

I think you mean to say that he has no sentience.

edit on 12-11-2012 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 12 2012 @ 09:47 PM
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reply to post by GideonFaith
 


If you have a question you want answered you'd better just ask it again then. I'm not not avoiding a question and I'm also not going to chase it down.



posted on Nov, 12 2012 @ 09:48 PM
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reply to post by GideonFaith
 


Since I know God and the things you say and do aren't of God....well, they must be of satan...

You keep forgetting, I'm not an athiest, I'm not an agnostic. I'm a Christian that actually follows what Christ taught instead of what some high-school dropout that calls himself a preacher teaches while thumping on the bible instead of reading it.



posted on Nov, 12 2012 @ 09:49 PM
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reply to post by GideonFaith
 


Oh I see I'm not the only one who neglected to answer a question they didn't know was asked!





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