Christianity and Abortion

Originally posted by GideonFaith

Originally posted by Annee
My position is - - Energy Consciousness (soul) is our natural eternal state - - - physical is a chosen experience. The Energy Consciousness chooses when it enters the physical host.

The Energy Consciousness can choose to enter at conception or after birth. The physical is not sentient until the Energy Consciousness enters/joins with the physical.

Termination of the physical in no way affects or harms the Energy Consciousness - - which is eternal.

Read the post again. I said IF. It is now underlined.

I am trying to get this straight from your post.

So, if the soul can enter at conception or after birth, doesn't that make abortion murder? Since you have no knowledge of when the soul enters the physical host? Since the host is physical, then it's a human life.

Before you decide what supports my decision or FITS my belief. Make sure you read the post correctly.

So you want to choose that the "soul" enters at conception - - - to support your position? You want to make it FIT your belief.

And ignore that I said the "soul" can enter - - choose to enter at any time - - including after birth.

I still don't understand why you think abortion is a game.

The games we play.

That is why we live in America, freedom to choose what we think is right or wrong.

In my belief - - - why you make a decision is more important then the decision itself. Integrity is in WHY - - the circumstances of why you come to that decision. And how you work with those decisions within the confines of this physical/emotional life experience. Kind of like a classroom.

However - - No I do not support abortion is murder. I do support every woman have the right to make this choice for herself.

I didn't get this comment.

Kind of like a classroom.

Resorting to bad language on a Christian board about abortion.

edit on 13-11-2012 by Annee because: DAMN QUOTES!

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

Originally posted by Annee
...
I've had experiences since birth (or at least first memory) - - such as OBEs - - premonitions - - etc. I would say I know there is something other then physical because of my experiences. Not because man taught me to believe a certain way.

Yet, you don't know, . . .

Guess what - - neither do you. YOU go by your belief - - a belief man has taught you.

I go by my belief - - coming from personal experiences - - not what man taught.

Especially since I had these experiences in the early 50s. Long before this type belief was discussed openly in public or on the internet.

Originally posted by GideonFaith

Read the post again. I said IF. It is now underlined.

I am very aware you said IF.

You are still trying to make it fit your belief.

I just think, many of these people call themselves pro lifers, the same people who themselves are part of a system that perpetuates poverty and milks the unsuspecting public for their entire soul never mind money, so that you have, in my hometown, heroin addicts sitting out their face telling their month old child to crawl out of the room while they jag up but cant quite do it because they're too out their nuts, for just one example, now i feel equally sorry for both those beautifull creatures, but ones beauty is clouded, and the other sails towards fog, i just remember, the parent used to be a child, and the child will grow up in conditions that eventually lead to the parent, it is a shame for both of those innocent children,

i say that a life should be created out of love, the true sex, not out of lust enhanced by chemicals or whatever, and if they are really pro lifers they would think about the childs LIFE and start perpetuating a system where we dont NEED to abort children, but i say better to not be born that to be born into an inescapable prison.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by GideonFaith

Read the post again. I said IF. It is now underlined.

I am very aware you said IF.

You are still trying to make it fit your belief.

How am I making it fit my beliefs when it was a concept from your belief in the post? I was just asking a couple of questions. Trying to understand your beliefs.

I am trying to get this straight from your post.

So, if the soul can enter at conception or after birth, doesn't that make abortion murder? Since you have no knowledge of when the soul enters the physical host? Since the host is physical, then it's a human life.

Originally posted by Annee

Guess what - - neither do you. YOU go by your belief - - a belief man has taught you.

NO... It is what SCIENCE through observation has taught us... That is different than somebody claiming something which has no corroborating evidence like your belief that a soul/spirit only chooses a body when you claim it does...

We have corroborating evidence of the duality of particle/matter and wave/energy of electrons. We know they both exist at the same time.

The spirit/soul is pure energy, hence it must exist at the same time as it's counterpart matter/fetus.

Originally posted by simplyLOVE

i say that a life should be created out of love, the true sex, not out of lust enhanced by chemicals or whatever, and if they are really pro lifers they would think about the childs LIFE and start perpetuating a system where we dont NEED to abort children, but i say better to not be born that to be born into an inescapable prison.

I agree with you. No one is Pro-Abortion.

There is not ONE unselfish reason to bring another child into this world. There are multiple reasons not to.

I consider choosing Abortion an intelligent and unselfish choice. No one ever wants to make this choice. But I give credit to those who realize bringing a baby into their life at a certain time is not right.

I now declare myself PRO LIVING. There are thousands of LIVING CHILDREN - - - that need care - - RIGHT NOW!

reply to post by Quadrivium


It's a conundrum, within a revolving door, within a conundrum.

I, personally DON'T believe that life starts at conception, but that life is a continuous cycle.

I believe in reincarnation, but this is a Christian thread, and I have done my best to stay away from projecting my non-Christian logic onto the religious. But, when the Old Testament is cited, all bets are off.

These debates can become personal and passionate. They start to become pejorative and insulting, but when someone feels really strong about their position, no one, not even god is going to change it.

Originally posted by borntowatch
Why do we hear so little from almost all women who have an abortion?
The shame?
The fear?
The grief?
Whatever way you twist it the fact is most women who have an abortion never recover from those actions.
Its not just a simple decision that has no future ramifications, No matter how you in your mind try to justify the decision, reason your actions, excuse your choice, that decision will for the most haunt your life.
A Woman mostly desires to become a mother, its part of the makeup. To love cherish and mother a child, part of themselves.
To abort that child is a lifetime decision that many women carry as a burden forever, many women never forgive themselves for those actions.
Not judging, just stating facts.

Unfortunately a foetus to most women does equal a life, and undergoing an abortion is terminating life.
Its a termination and it is a life being terminated. As a Christian I know there is forgiveness in Christ

Dont play pretend

I judge no one by these comments, just a statement and a warning.

EXCUSE ME. You do not know *most* women nor what they desire. You got some stones attempting to speak for me, thinking you know me. Your entire post is SEXIST.

I was alerted to this by a good friend of mine who is a JEW and you know what BOTH of us FEMALES are? Mechanical Engineers.

I know. Blows your freakin mind, don't it? We are both also Child Free BY CHOICE.

Now. Let's get down to biz here. Crazy Jew Broad wants me to tell you that ALL religion is FALSE. She reads up on this extensively. The "mystical being" you call "Jesus Christ" NEVER EXISTED. There was *no such person*. Open up a history book. And so is all this "God" crap false. WHAT GOD? Where is it? Show it to me - send it here - tell it to bring me a big bag of money, also. You do that - you pull that off - and THEN I'll believe in this ridiculous nonsense.

Now that we've got that CRAP out of the way - I've been enlisted here to tell you a few other things. And you best listen up.

1/3 of US women of child bearing age has enough heavy metal toxicity in the body to cause SERIOUS birth defects. I am also an Environmental Engineer. Yes I have vast amounts of knowledge on all things filth despite the fact that some of you sexist pigs seem to believe my mind is full of baby craving.

Here's the thing - what would you do with a fetus which was seriously defective? Would you have that be born - to live nothing but a life of MISERY? How very *compassionate* of you.

What would you do with a fatally injured child that you had no way to save? No way to get to a doctor? Would you let it lie there and suffer? Or - would you put a bullet in its head to end the suffering? Which is more compassionate?

You men and your Mother Love. You so wish to impregnate some cow so you can trap a woman and then vicariously experience Mother Love. It frankly sickens me. Why not just go live with your own mother? Why don't you do something for the people *already here* ? You people are the same types that dismiss environmental concerns. Yeah good luck with your two headed monster that is trapped in a world of pain in its defective body - that YOU forced into being.

In closing - DO NOT TELL ME WHAT TO DO WITH MY BODY! It's mine and I'll shove a red hot poker up my ass if I want to. And don't you dare tell me what I think or want either.

You Bible Thumpers and your ridiculous fantasies make me sick! No I will NOT be tolerant of your crazy "religion" because you attempt to control me by it. Why don't you get off your ass and do some 'godly' work as well - like cleaning up all the damn pollution? This would reduce the number of SICK CHILDREN you know.

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


You stated the issue yourself. The fetus is a DEVELOPING human, it hasn't reached the stage of being a physically viable human yet. It's still dependent on it's mother because it is not fully formed. At what point in its formation does it gain the rights that are afforded to all people? Conception? Birth? 12 years old? ....life certainly doesn't begin at erection, but there are some that would even argue that.

reply to post by Zinky

If I could give you a gajillion stars I would. Thank you for saying what needed to be said. I got your back over here.

reply to post by Seede


In exodus, there is also payment expected when there is a loss of an animal, so your argument doesn't hold. It doesn't ask for a life as it does with the death of the mother. That means that exodus doesn't consider the unborn fetus a "life" yet.

reply to post by Quadrivium


Is she removing human life or is she preventing human life....there's the rub.

Originally posted by GideonFaith


He bares the scars as does his mother. He has to heal, just like his mother.

edit on 13-11-2012 by GideonFaith because: (no reason given)

Does he really have to "heal" since the operation was to ensure the development as opposed to correct a problem? He wouldn't be "healing", he would be "developing" as he was meant to as opposed to fixing something that was already formed.

Originally posted by PurpleChiten

Originally posted by GideonFaith


He bares the scars as does his mother. He has to heal, just like his mother.

edit on 13-11-2012 by GideonFaith because: (no reason given)

Does he really have to "heal" since the operation was to ensure the development as opposed to correct a problem? He wouldn't be "healing", he would be "developing" as he was meant to as opposed to fixing something that was already formed.

If the doctors opened him up to correct his spina bifida, then yes, his body would have to heal while also developing inside his mother's womb.

reply to post by Seede


According to what you wrote yourself, until the soul is in the body, it isn't a "cellestial human being". That soul enters with the first breath as illustrated by the Bible. Are you trying to say that the bible is wrong and you are right??

If you are going to go by the bible, you have to go by it completely. Decide which approach you plan to take and stick with it.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by gnosticagnostic


I miscarried at 19 weeks.. that's half way thru gestation.. i held him in the palm of my hand.. i have pictures of him.. and let me tell you.. he was not capable of life.. did he have potential to be life.. sure and maybe in 100 more years they can save even younger premature children however the fetus was not fully formed, although he was normal for his gestational age. So i have seen a fetus in the flesh and you can call it a baby all day long but it wasn't...and he never got to be one.

Me too. I was a good 4 months when I had a spontaneous abortion.

I held it in my hand too. It was not a baby. And its never going to be one.

I did not take pictures and I did not feel any great attachment to it.

I am one who has definite belief the Energy Consciousness (soul) is our natural eternal state - - - that physical is just a host - - - a chosen experience.

Absence of physical host in no way affects or damages the Energy Consciousness.

I didn't take the pictures the hospital did.. ( it was a catholic hospital) then they asked me if I wanted them to "dispose" ( incinerate) the remains or if I wanted to take him home and bury him myself.. but i keep the photo's because nothing shocks people more lol

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse


And a fetus breathes through the amniotic fluid... A fetus is fed through the mother, just like a new born baby is feed by the breasts of the mother...

And a fully formed human breathes air and is fed through the mouth. Which side of this argument are you on anyway? You just gave more creedance to it only being a fetus, not a fully formed "life".

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

Originally posted by Annee
...
Point being - - - physical is not sentient without the Energy Consciousness (soul) which must choose when it enter the physical host. Human is not sentient until first breath.

...

There are MANY grown people, and even children who need some sort of breathing apparatus to live, but otherwise can function. Are you going to claim as well that because these people can't breathe on their own they are not human or don't have a spirit?...

reason given)