A Good Biblical Reason for Abortion

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posted on Nov, 10 2012 @ 06:34 PM
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When is the Bible okay with abortion? When there is a jealous husband, of course.

Numbers Chapter 5

And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying , 12 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man's wife go aside , and commit a trespass against him,

13 And a man lie with her carnally , and it be hid from the eyes of her husband, and be kept close , and she be defiled , and there be no witness against her, neither she be taken with the manner;

14 And the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be defiled : or if the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be not defiled :

15 Then shall the man bring his wife unto the priest,


So, if a man suspects that his wife has been unfaithful, even though it may not be true, but he is overcome with suspicion and jealousy, he should bring his wife to to the priest.

Maybe she's just a little too happy and glowing, for his comfort.





15 Then shall the man bring his wife unto the priest, and he shall bring her offering for her, the tenth part of an ephah of barley meal; he shall pour no oil upon it, nor put frankincense thereon; for it is an offering of jealousy, an offering of memorial, bringing iniquity to remembrance .
16 And the priest shall bring her near , and set her before the LORD:
17 And the priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel; and of the dust that is in the floor of the tabernacle the priest shall take , and put it into the water:
18 And the priest shall set the woman before the LORD, and uncover the woman's head, and put the offering of memorial in her hands, which is the jealousy offering: and the priest shall have in his hand the bitter water that causeth the curse :
19 And the priest shall charge her by an oath , and say unto the woman, If no man have lain with thee, and if thou hast not gone aside to uncleanness with another instead of thy husband, be thou free from this bitter water that causeth the curse :
20 But if thou hast gone aside to another instead of thy husband, and if thou be defiled , and some man have lain with thee beside thine husband:
21 Then the priest shall charge the woman with an oath of cursing, and the priest shall say unto the woman, The LORD make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the LORD doth make thy thigh to rot , and thy belly to swell;
22 And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell , and thy thigh to rot : And the woman shall say , Amen, amen.


What if the woman has been faithful and is pregnant with her husband's child?


24 And he shall cause the woman to drink the bitter water that causeth the curse : and the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter.

27 And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled , and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell , and her thigh shall rot : and the woman shall be a curse among her people.

28 And if the woman be not defiled , but be clean; then she shall be free , and shall conceive seed.


There you have it! Lawful, ordained abortion in the temple!

This is my favorite part:


29 This is the law of jealousies, when a wife goeth aside to another instead of her husband, and is defiled ;

30 Or when the spirit of jealousy cometh upon him, and he be jealous over his wife, and shall set the woman before the LORD, and the priest shall execute upon her all this law.

31 Then shall the man be guiltless from iniquity, and this woman shall bear her iniquity.


Can anyone find a shred of defense for this scripture, and the seeming reinforcement of male paranoia and suspicion as a reason for abortion?


edit on 10-11-2012 by windword because: fixing stuff




posted on Nov, 10 2012 @ 08:12 PM
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Interesting find Windword. I had forgotten these verses existed. It's been a long time since I've seen them. So are you saying the bitter water has something in it that causes a miscarriage?

As for defense, there is none. Just another example of the oppression women have suffered for thousands of years in Middle Eastern culture, among others.
edit on 11/10/2012 by Klassified because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 10 2012 @ 08:44 PM
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reply to post by windword
 


You will not get a mainstream Christian to agree with you about this being about abortion. The explanation I've heard is that it's to curse the woman from having future children if she is guilty. To me, this says it simply makes her miscarriage so badly that it causes permanent damage to her reproductive system which is even worse than the explanation you gave.

It is to be read as if the priests were using magic and that the poison is a "smart" poison. This is much like the logic about "legitimate" rape not causing pregnancy because the woman's body knows. Or throwing the witch in a lake. If she drowns, she's innocent. If she floats, she gets burned at the stake.

In other words, it is justified since it is a woman.



posted on Nov, 10 2012 @ 08:56 PM
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reply to post by Klassified
 


Yes, it must cause miscarriage. The bitter water causes the "guilty" woman's belly to swell, her thigh to rot, and then she becomes cursed throughout society.

I don't know what the rotting thigh thing is, maybe it's a side effect of blood clots or something.

If the women isn't pregnant, then of course it won't cause the bleeding miscarriage, and she'll be able to conceive, in the future.

reply to post by Cuervo
 


Smart poison!


This scripture reminds me of the witch drownings too.



edit on 10-11-2012 by windword because: spelling



posted on Nov, 11 2012 @ 12:45 AM
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The problem here is your arguing reason VS people who argue by "Faith" as
if that were enough to somehow sway things to their side, these are not
reasonable people we are dealing with, if they were they wouldn't choose
to remain outside the realm of reality for their way of seeing the world.

there are so many many things condoned in the bible that it just makes me
sick, a book of morality it is not, a book of fiction that is taken as a command
to do immoral things in the name of a moral god, how is it moral to be immoral?

The things listed in the bible are not moral, anyone who says different must lie
to do so, on the issue of abortion there is this idea that the religions have
a moral high ground on this issue when in reality all they have is a false claim,
they dilute morality with their other crazy claims and then they want to be
accepted as reasonable, the problem you run into is boy cried wolf, if you
continue to claim something you don't have, people eventually stop listening.

I cant comment on whether or not abortion is moral, the truth is it can be both
moral and immoral, if anyone says much different then they are
adding their opinion, while they may have their opinion and that's ok, it is
not ok to force opinion on other people simply because they have bought
into a lie. the real question is do you want to be honest or not?



posted on Nov, 11 2012 @ 09:30 AM
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reply to post by windword
 


The bitter water was nothing more than holy water mixed with dust from the ground.

They left the judgement up to God as to whether or not the water mixture would result into any kind of suffering on the woman's part, not from anything they themselves concocted.



posted on Nov, 11 2012 @ 10:22 AM
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reply to post by bloodreviara
 


Thanks for you response.



The problem here is your arguing reason VS people who argue by "Faith" as
if that were enough to somehow sway things to their side, these are not
reasonable people we are dealing with, if they were they wouldn't choose
to remain outside the realm of reality for their way of seeing the world.


I agree that many religious folk blindly follow the idea that the Bible is the inerrorable Word of God that provides a "rock" upon which many pin their values. They believe that the Bible provides a safe and moral path toward living a good and humble life, allowing them God's grace and entry into eternal life.

That's fine for armchair Christian's that attend church on holidays and pray to God when they are in need. They never really delve into what the Bible really says, and what or who this Old Testament God really is and represents. They abide by a glossed over, user friendly version of their religion, as it presented and packaged for the masses.

It's the die hard fundamentalist that use this kind of Old Testament God crazy, insisting that this God, who has a taste for blood and carnage, is the One True God, because the Bible says so, and who we need to fear. They even go so far as to say the Jesus is/was this (blood thirsty) God from the get go, and he incarnated to sacrifice himself to himself for OUR sins. They're ready to cast all of us into the lake of fire for even questioning their moral high ground, as they gleefully project the end of the world.

The purpose of my OP is to expose the nature of a God who directs the priests to perform abortions as an offering to him of jealousy. Something he proudly claims as a pinnacle of his essence. He provides no chastisement or counselling for men who are overcome with rampant jealousy and unwarranted suspicion. He seems to delight in it. Naturally, it is the woman's fault and she must suffer to pay the price of her husbands irrational emotions.

In this biblical scripture, God has provided a means in which to validate the mental illness of paranoia and jealousy, as it emulates his very nature, through a temple ritual that places all iniquity on the women, for her to bear for the rest of her life. If she wasn't pregnant at the time, she only bears her husband's iniquity temporarily, which then passes, allowing her to bear her husbands children in the future, hopefully.

I would hope, that upon examination and soul searching, most Christians would condemn this God and proclaim that surely the God of Jesus is not one and the same God as this ruthless, misogynistic and sadistic entity, claiming to be holy.

This "Offering of Jealousy" is, in fact, most unholy and being that it's done in the temple it seems particularly blasphemous. In my opinion, this ritual exposes the fact that this is an impostor God.



posted on Nov, 11 2012 @ 11:52 AM
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Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by windword
 


The bitter water was nothing more than holy water mixed with dust from the ground.

They left the judgement up to God as to whether or not the water mixture would result into any kind of suffering on the woman's part, not from anything they themselves concocted.




If that was the case, why was imperative that the woman drink the "bitter water?" The priest could just sprinkle it around, or pour it on her head, which he is directed to uncover, to reinforce her humiliation.



22 And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell , and thy thigh to rot : And the woman shall say , Amen, amen.

24 And he shall cause the woman to drink the bitter water that causeth the curse : and the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter.



The scripture doesn't say that God provides the judgement or punishment based on his omniscience. It says the the bitter water holds the curse, and it must enter her bowels. If God's loving judgment was in play, the punishment, or effect of the bitter water, would have different effects for different sins. As it is, all women who are guilty (of being pregnant) experience the same symptoms, a swelling belly and a rotting thigh, which I take to mean either a blood clot malady or the the actual expulsion of the dead fetus, more likely.

This scripture condones abortion as a remedy for a jealous husband, who has no proof or witnesses other then his paranoia, to declare his wive's infidelity . This ritual can also be used simply for jealousy, even if the husband doesn't suspect the wive of infidelity. He could just be jealous of the unborn child, or his wives happiness, and use this ritual to punish her. It's all good.

If there is any doubt that the unborn child that the woman is carrying is not his, the husband has a remedy to abort the fetus, even if it is really his. If he just doesn't want the child or hates his wives pregnant moods or her joy, he has ultimate control to punish her and forcibly take her unborn child.



posted on Nov, 11 2012 @ 03:51 PM
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reply to post by windword
 




If that was the case, why was imperative that the woman drink the "bitter water?" The priest could just sprinkle it around, or pour it on her head, which he is directed to uncover, to reinforce her humiliation.


Because it was part of the "curse".

Maybe some research on different curses in the Bible will help to bring more understanding.

Let's start from the beginning...

Genesis 3:14-19

14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

The dust of the ground, from which the bitter water was made, was cursed.



posted on Nov, 11 2012 @ 04:07 PM
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reply to post by windword
 

There is one problem with your argument; this passage doesn't say anything at all about abortion. It is only about testing to find out whether or not a woman has been unfaithful.



posted on Nov, 11 2012 @ 04:28 PM
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Although I've become quite anti-abortion (but not for legislation that would undermine a woman's right to choose - I'd rather support persuasion than reverting to back-street abortions) the evangelical Protestant position is quite an enigma.

Here is an article which claims the evangelical Christians actually supported "life begins at birth" (rather than conception) until the early 1970s:

www.huffingtonpost.com...

But then again, the whole hippie "Jesus people" history of what is now "right-wing Christianity" is a bit unmentionable.

Evangelicals just fell from the sky with their starched shirts and wacky end-time ideas.
Or they were the "original Christians" for 2000 years.
Yeah right.
All nonsense.

They were a fashion statement with a conservative make-over (none actually lived very "conservatively" judging by their pastors - the very late 1960s they preached against were apparent in their "swinging" lifestyles, and are clearly still), although some superficial ideas did change, like their ideas on abortion.
edit on 11-11-2012 by halfoldman because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 11 2012 @ 04:28 PM
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reply to post by Deetermined
 


LOL! The temple floor was cursed?

The water was cursed because it contained a poison! And, it wasn't "smart" poison that knew when a girl was good or naughty.

None of the curses that you have mentioned required a potion that had to be swallowed and taken into ones bowels, causing a physical side effect.

Why would a loving God create a ritual cursing random women at the whim of a husband overcome by paranoia and jealousy if not to put an end the predicament by aborting the fetus in question?


edit on 11-11-2012 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 11 2012 @ 04:39 PM
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reply to post by halfoldman
 


Yep. My Pentecostal church supported and coerced abortions in the '70's. It was Roe v Wade that made evangelicals rebel. How dare a woman have rights that we didn't bestow!

From your link:

Evangelical views on abortion diverged in response to Roe v. Wade. Christianity Today condemned the decision in 1973 as counter to "the moral teachings of Christianity." The Baptist Press lauded Roe, declaring that "religious liberty, human equality and justice are advanced by the Supreme Court abortion decision."


It was the same thing with the evangelicals and the Catholic church when Obamacare mandated contraception. The biggest opponents were actually already offering birth control in their employee health care packages, but proceeded to pull those benefits in protest after the law was enacted.

Rebellious hypocrites, if you ask me.



posted on Nov, 11 2012 @ 04:40 PM
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reply to post by theophilus40
 


So what do think became of the fetus, belonging to any pregnant woman who drank the "bitter water that contained the curse?"



posted on Nov, 11 2012 @ 04:53 PM
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Originally posted by windword
reply to post by Deetermined
 


The water was cursed because it contained a poison! And, it wasn't "smart" poison that knew when a girl was good or naughty.


Where does it say that the bitter water contained anything other than holy water and dust from the ground?


None of the curses that you have mentioned required a potion that had to be swallowed and taken into ones bowels, causing a physical side effect.


So?


Why would a loving God create a ritual cursing random women at the whim of a husband overcome by paranoia and jealousy if not to put an end the predicament by aborting the fetus in question?


I'm sure the cursing ritual was created by men as a scare tactic to keep their women from sinning against them and to get them to confess out of fear.

Remember, when Jesus came along, he accused most of them of being more wrapped up in their rituals and laws then obeying God's commandments anyway.



posted on Nov, 11 2012 @ 05:03 PM
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Here's another interpretation worthy of considering as to who was doing the judging...


Verse 16

[16] And the priest shall bring her near, and set her before the LORD:

Before the Lord — That is, before the sanctuary where the ark was.


www.christnotes.org...



posted on Nov, 11 2012 @ 05:34 PM
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Originally posted by Deetermined

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by Deetermined
 


The water was cursed because it contained a poison! And, it wasn't "smart" poison that knew when a girl was good or naughty.


Where does it say that the bitter water contained anything other than holy water and dust from the ground?


The water caused the curse. Do you really believe in magic water that knows if a woman has been unfaithful? Do you think a guilty woman's belly automatically swells up as she becomes horrible ill, while an innocent woman suffers nothing?

Doesn't it make more sense that any pregnant woman would "swell up" and loose her child, becoming a curse to society, while any woman not pregnant at the time would pass with flying colors.

So which is it? Magic smart water or a poison that caused abortions?




None of the curses that you have mentioned required a potion that had to be swallowed and taken into ones bowels, causing a physical side effect.


So?

So, none of the curses require a magic potion that is to be swallowed. It was a real life medicinal potion that caused a pregnant woman to hemorrhage and miscarry.




Why would a loving God create a ritual cursing random women at the whim of a husband overcome by paranoia and jealousy if not to put an end the predicament by aborting the fetus in question?


I'm sure the cursing ritual was created by men as a scare tactic to keep their women from sinning against them and to get them to confess out of fear.


I'm sure that most of the Bible is a scare tactic created by men. However, this particular law is prefaces with:


And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying , 12 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man's wife go aside , and commit a trespass against him,




Remember, when Jesus came along, he accused most of them of being more wrapped up in their rituals and laws then obeying God's commandments anyway.


Which is why I don't believe that the same God that dictated this law of jealousy is the same God that Jesus called "Father."



edit on 11-11-2012 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 11 2012 @ 09:52 PM
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reply to post by Deetermined
 


I take the "curse" quote to mean inducing menstruation.
My understanding is menstruation was considered part of God's original curse to women and I have heard it refereed to as "the curse."
(Personally I don't believe it's a curse, mostly an inconvenience)

Additionally, there are herbs that will induce menstruation and/or miscarriages.

My anthropology professor told of some Native American women who would find certain herbs and induce a miscarriage if they felt their child would suffer extreme hardship (like during famines). Some tribes believed that children's happiness came first, and if they knew a child would suffer greatly, they believed it would be best to keep them with the creator a bit longer.

Just like the native Americans, I am certain that middle eastern priests would know of local herbs that would also induce "the curse." They could easily mix it into a potion and make bitter waters. This could also fit into your cursed ground theory, since the Genesis quote mentions that the Earth would produce unfriendly plants.



posted on Nov, 11 2012 @ 10:26 PM
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reply to post by collietta
 


Very insightful observation on the "curse" analogy. DUH! How did I miss that?

Yeah, and God's curse on the ground, bringing forth harmful plants.....


Good stuff!



posted on Nov, 12 2012 @ 04:49 AM
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reply to post by windword
 









Check out 'ergot' derived from some sort of fungus which was used in the middle

ages to induce abortions? I believe it is also bitter tasting!
edit on 12-11-2012 by eletheia because: (no reason given)
edit on 12-11-2012 by eletheia because: (no reason given)





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