Magnetism, Magnetic Fields and what are they?

The discussion below flows on from a thread i created called "Why Electricity flows". This thread discusses magnetic fields, and how they are created naturally, and also artifically by through a mechanism called Electromagnetic Induction. This thread is design to encourage discussion and debate from members as i certainly dont proclaim to be an expert in the areas of magnetism.
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The transmission of electric current (electricity) in a electrical conductor will produce a symertical magnet field . The link below shows numerous examples of magnetic field lines around coil shaped conductors.

www.google.com.au... QsAQ&biw=1417&bih=698

And an example of transmission of electric current through a straight line conductor.

hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...


Electric current is electrons in motion and the term conductor describes a metal material which possesses very low resistance. This characteristic of low resistance allows electric current (electrons in motion) to flow freely. The most typical material used for conductors is Copper and Aluminium as these have the highest conductive property of the non-precious metals. Think of conductivity as the opposite to resistance in that conductivity allows free movement of electrons through conductors in wires, cables etc.

This focus of this thread of course is about magnetic fields and how they are produced. To establish the setting correctly in this thread it is important to repeat what my lecturer years ago said about magnetic fields. He said we ".....know a substantial lot about electricity and electric current but nothing about is magnetism..." Basically what he was getting at without saying it explicitly is the phenomenon we know as Magnetism is a mystery.

Oh sure Science has worked out and understands the characteristics of magnetism such as the existance of magnetic lines of force between north and south poles on Magnets, and creation of magnetic lines of force by passing electric currents through a conductors, but try to go deeper than this and its entering the cerebal space of theories and ideas as to describe the nature of magnestism.

So what is the difference between terms used Magnetism and Magnetic field?

The Magnetism is a force where objects are are attracted or repelled from eachother. In nature we see natural magnetism exhibited by Ferromagnetic materials an the most common of these are iron, nickel and cobalt. A permanent magnet is formed from Ferromagnetic materials or is a material that that can be magnetized in the presence of Ferromagnetic materials.

Magnetic Fields are produced by either Magnetic materials or Electric currents. The magnetic field is a Vector field. The magnetic field which symbol is given in physics & engineering as B is defined in terms of a force acting on a electric charge which is moving through the field. The force on the electric charge will have both a magnitude and direction for any location point within the field. In this context the force on an electric charge passing through a magnetic field is a Vector quantity. Vector quantities therefore have both quantity and direction, compared alternatively to Scalars which have only quantity.

The link below provides a diagram and a mathematical expression for magnetic force acting on a moving charge in the magnetic field.

hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...

This now brings me to discussing Electromagnetic induction. This is basically the mechansim for which causes magnetic fields to be produced from flow of electric current in conductors.

ELECTROMAGNETIC INDUCTION


The basic principal of Electromagnetic induction is observed in instances of when physically moving a conductor through the magnetic field. The movement of the conductor in a perpendicular direction to the direction of the magnetic field will induces an electric current through the conductor. The term perpendicular is referring to that the direction of conductor movement and direction of the magnetic field are displaced at ninety degrees to eachother (just think of the floor of your house meeting with the wall, these two planes are displaced at ninety degrees to eachother).

The effect of reducing the displacement angle between the conductor direction of movement against the magnetic field direction will cause a corresponding reduction in the amount of electric current induced to flow in the conductor. If the conductor is moving in the same direction the magnetic field is pointing in this means that no electric current will be travelling through conductor. Therefore the effect of induction is at its maximum when a conductor is moving in a direction which is perpendicular ( a ninety degrees) to the direction of the magnetic field.

An interesting physical phenomena of the conductor moving the magnetic field is it experiences a magnetic force. The force is perpendicular to both the direction of the magnetic field and electric current passing through the conductor. The link below shows the relationship between the Magnetic field (B), the velocity of the electric current (V) and the magnetic force (F).


hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...

This relationship between B, V, and F is well undestood in design of electrical rotating machinary. Remember in engineering analysis the direction of electrical current is denotated in the opposite direction to that the electrons are flowing, hence the charge symbol q in the diagram is designated as (+) positive.

reply to post by AthlonSavage


My god, you sir do not do yourself justice at all, your knowledge of this subject is "expert" in nature, when compared even to the learned.

If I may for a moment pick your brain. Why is it, in your summation, that a natural body, short of a magnetar, produces such a low level gauss field, than is capable by electromagnets here and now on earth, without even using super conductors?

ETA- to be more specific, we herfe on earth create gauss fields that are factors higher even than the sun itself, yet this occurs even without using superconducting magnets.

If super conducting magnets are used, the gauss field potential is limited only by our ability to feed it power. So why is it that when we use simple to create current, we can make such a overpowered gauss filed with much ease, but nature does not produce these fields except in the most extreme of cases(magnetars).

It simply stated, occurs to one, that the universe wastes nothing, yet fails to use the magnetic monopoly at its disposal forfar greater use than it is observed using.

This has always made me wander, as every other force seems to be used to near its full potential, save electromagnetism in the natural world.

It is almost as if the universe, as efficient as it is on all the other 3 forces, wastes its most powerful force, and barely even uses its potential at all.

For example: gravity is the most obious of the 4( known) yet a simple "load staone" defies it, and nature seems to not capitaise on its use, the way it does gravity, and the strong and weak nuclear forces.

AthlonSavage
Well done thread i have nothing to offer to it because its all over my head ..peace,sugarcookie1 S&F

reply to post by sugarcookie1


Thanks Sugar your post magnetised me to feel good.

reply to post by AthlonSavage

Magnetism is the attractive or repulsive Force that is created by an Element which has the ability to either take on additional electrons due to unfilled Electron Orbits as well as certain Elements ability to repulse other Elements due to their Electron Orbits being Filled.

The First Orbit is full in an element when it has two electrons. The second orbit is full when it has eight. The third orbit needs eight electrons to be full if it is the last orbit or eighteen if it is not. The fourth, fifth, sixth and seventh orbits can fit large numbers of electrons but two or three orbits are often unfilled. They must always have eight electrons before a new one is started. The important thing to remember is the outer orbit never has more than eight.

This is the basis for Chemical Reaction as well as the construct for Magnetism. Split Infinity

reply to post by SplitInfinity


SplitInfinity, I have seen you around the science forums several times, you have a lot of knowledge of this subject.

Why is it, that the universe wastes nothing, yet fails to fully employ the potential of electromagnetism, as gravity is truly amazing and basically used for all it is worth, the strong and weak nuclear forces are also used at a similar level.

Yet electromagnetism seems to be the "black sheep" of the 4 known forces, as it is vvery weakly used in comparisson.

Why is this so? If the answer is forthcoming in any significant manner.

reply to post by AthlonSavage


I read a thread a couple of days ago that described how the use of magnetism located at specific points on the head can actually cure ocd in patients that suffer from that disorder. Have you ever heard of that before and would that even work?

Great thread btw, S&F

Originally posted by inverslyproportional
reply to post by SplitInfinity

 

SplitInfinity, I have seen you around the science forums several times, you have a lot of knowledge of this subject.

Why is it, that the universe wastes nothing, yet fails to fully employ the potential of electromagnetism, as gravity is truly amazing and basically used for all it is worth, the strong and weak nuclear forces are also used at a similar level.

Yet electromagnetism seems to be the "black sheep" of the 4 known forces, as it is vvery weakly used in comparisson.

Why is this so? If the answer is forthcoming in any significant manner.

my only guess is maybe it is up to us to tinker with magnetism.. utilize its potentials....

as far as nature not fully utilizing electromagnetism,,, explain to me how life on earth would exist ( or the earth would exist) with out the sun?

Originally posted by ImaFungi

my only guess is maybe it is up to us to tinker with magnetism.. utilize its potentials....

And you think that is a good idea why?

You see what they've done so far tinkering with the atom.

It is the second time I have posted this link here. I am fascinated with Ed Leedskanlin's "beginner's mind" understanding of magnetism. (1945)

"Magnetic current is the same as electric current. Current is a wrong expression. Really it is not one current, they are two currents, one current is composed of individual North Pole magnets in concentrated streams and the other is composed of individual South Pole magnets in concentrated streams, and they are running one stream against the other stream in whirling, screwlike fashion, and with high speed..."

I recall that he says the magnetic force is actually a lot of tiny magnets, and about getting more and more of these magnets moving along a line, thus creating a physical force... it is beautiful to read because he is so simple, yet expressing ideas I think that are unacknowledged by science. As you say, magnetism remains a mystery.

But to realize the physical miracle of Ed's creation, Coral Castle, is to realize that he had a profound understanding of natural forces and their potential utilization.

I wish I could wrap my head around Ed's little paper.

Originally posted by inverslyproportional
reply to post by SplitInfinity

 

SplitInfinity, I have seen you around the science forums several times, you have a lot of knowledge of this subject.

Why is it, that the universe wastes nothing, yet fails to fully employ the potential of electromagnetism, as gravity is truly amazing and basically used for all it is worth, the strong and weak nuclear forces are also used at a similar level.

Yet electromagnetism seems to be the "black sheep" of the 4 known forces, as it is vvery weakly used in comparisson.

Why is this so? If the answer is forthcoming in any significant manner.

If you are asking why Electromagnetism is not used to it's potential by Man...my response is...it is all about OIL! There are many uses of EM Fields and Maglev Trains are an example.

If you are asking the question from a Universal Natural Existence of EM Fields...the Universe is abound with it. We could not live on Earth if it were not for Earths EM Field. The spinning Liquid Metallic core of the Earth protects us from Life Threatening Solar Flares, Cosmic Rays...etc. Mars lost it's Magnetic Field many eons ago and this boiled off the oceans and possibly killed any life that may have existed there. We can also look at the Sun and watch how it's incredibly strong Magnetic Field effects shooting Solar Flares and creates ARCHES of Solar Material.

Gravity has nothing to do with Electromagnetism. Although for some reason some here have said it does.
Split Infinity

reply to post by SplitInfinity

Magnetism is the attractive or repulsive Force that is created by an Element which has the ability to either take on additional electrons due to unfilled Electron Orbits as well as certain Elements ability to repulse other Elements due to their Electron Orbits being Filled.

That is incorrect, you are talking about chemical bonding... what causes natural magnetism is the fact that the material has many electrons which have aligned magnetic moments. In a non-magnetic material the magnetic moments of the electrons are not aligned, and they tend to cancel each other out, resulting in a very low net magnetism. You can magnetize certain materials by applying a magnetic field that material, which will help align the magnetic moments of the electrons in the atoms of that material. I would also guess electric currents produce a magnetic field because all the electrons are flowing in a similar direction, which I assume would mean their magnetic moments would be aligned.

But I think the OP is actually in search of a deeper answer. We can say what generates a magnetic field, but can we really say what a magnetic field is? What is it made of, how does the force propagate? I think magnetism is much like gravity, we don't have a solid answer for how the physics behind it works... but I do think we understand it a bit better than gravity. I haven't researched stuff like this in ages.

reply to post by SplitInfinity


Altholugh very well stated, you failed to understand my meaning, ol perhaps more accuartely, I failed to properly convey my meaning.

Gravity, is not at present able to be further expressed by man, meaning it is at its fullest expression, or we are not yet cappable of further expression with our knowledge/tech.

The strong and weak nucear forces, are as understood at present, fully utilized, and mirrored by their use in nature.I e. The sun burns, radioactive elements emit radiation, in spite of or despite of our medling, we may only at present understanding, place them in the position to cause a desired effect, not cause effects because we changed them. we don't make plutonium explode, we place it in a certain situation where nuclear fuzion is 100%
probable and it happens. We don't make uranium deplete into lead, it happens by nature.

Electromagnetism, is the exception, we can in any situation save the most dramatic (magnetars) "make" it follow our directives, with near "god like" capablities.

We can in your living room, make a gauss field stronger than the entire sun, with nothing but simple to produce electricity.

Why is it, that this one field is so easliy expressed, with minimal effort, yet the next 2 ( strong and weak nuclear forces) are factors harder to "control" and the 4th, gravity, is beyond our ability to understand, not to mention "use" like we do the other 3?

reply to post by ChaoticOrder

I am well aware that what I have posted is the template for Chemical Reaction...but it is the CONSTRUCT that allows for Electromagnetism. Not all Elements can become Magnetic as they have Full Electron Orbits. An Element that cannot easily conduct also has these specific orbits full...only Elements that can allow their orbits to temp. fill will conduct electron as well as seek out electrons to fill those orbits.

Split Infinity

reply to post by SplitInfinity


Yes but that only describes the initial setup necessary for magnetism, not how magnetism is generated or what magnetism is... so it seems kind of pointless to mention that when it's not really relevant to the main topic of magnetism.

reply to post by inverslyproportional

Well as far as Gravity is concerned...it is not a true Force. All Forces are defined as the Interaction of Quantum Particle/Wave Form Fields. As is the case in Electromagnetism. Nuclear Fusion although it is whispered that the U.S. Military has developed a Low Temp. Micro-Fusion Reactor...has yet to become Commercially available.

Fission is not all that hard to accomplish and any kid at MIT could easily create it.

Gravity is something all together different. It is not a true Force at all as it does not even fit the definition of a Force and to Manipulate Gravity...one would have to generate an Enormous amount of Energy and it is thought that a Matter/Antimatter Reaction will create a Cascade Effect that is connected to more than one Universal Reality. Since Matter and Energy are interchangeable...although we do not know how to do this...all one would have to do is Directionally create enough energy to fool the Universe into reacting as if it were a large quantity of mass thus creating a Warp or Folding of Space/Time.

As far as EM...we do have a great ability to use it...but we don't know everything. Split Infinity

Just wanted to add I am really enjoying this thread.

Physics in Laymans Terms is something I appreciate. I never really got exposed to it, but had an interest. Thanks OP for The greatly detailed explanation, and for contributing posters.

reply to post by ChaoticOrder


Well to understand a thing...one must first understand what that thing truly is. Magnetism is essentially the desire of Electrons to either Fill an Elements Orbits thus be physically drawn to another element that has them or be repulsed by an Element that is also filled. Split Infinity

Originally posted by SplitInfinity
reply to post by ChaoticOrder

 

Well to understand a thing...one must first understand what that thing truly is. Magnetism is essentially the desire of Electrons to either Fill an Elements Orbits thus be physically drawn to another element that has them or be repulsed by an Element that is also filled. Split Infinity

That's where you are providing incorrect information, because that's not what magnetism is. Yes, the electron configuration of an element plays a role in allowing the magnetic moments to become aligned, but the force of magnetism is not caused by electrons in the way you describe.

Ordinarily, the enormous number of electrons in a material are arranged such that their magnetic moments (both orbital and intrinsic) cancel out. This is due, to some extent, to electrons combining into pairs with opposite intrinsic magnetic moments as a result of the Pauli exclusion principle (see electron configuration), or combining into filled subshells with zero net orbital motion. In both cases, the electron arrangement is so as to exactly cancel the magnetic moments from each electron. Moreover, even when the electron configuration is such that there are unpaired electrons and/or non-filled subshells, it is often the case that the various electrons in the solid will contribute magnetic moments that point in different, random directions, so that the material will not be magnetic.

However, sometimes — either spontaneously, or owing to an applied external magnetic field — each of the electron magnetic moments will be, on average, lined up. Then the material can produce a net total magnetic field, which can potentially be quite strong.

Sources of magnetism

reply to post by ChaoticOrder

This is of course true. Still my simplistic statement holds true. Gold is not Magnetic because it has it's orbits full...Iron can be Magnetic if an electric charge is sent to it because it has electron orbits that are not full.

This is a simple truth. Split Infinity