Well, twitchy, that is just one more example of there being two sides to every story. What you found was totally different than Snopes...who I tend to look to for debunking bunked up political rhetoric. You're likely to find a site saying anything about everything. Thank you for adding this angle to our discussion.

One point of house keeping, could you reduce your quote to a few short paragraphs and then the link for those , like myself, interested in the whole story? Your quote repeats the same info a couple times there. I'm not going to hit you with the excessive quote fine if you will trim it down a bit for me. mmmkay?

Laura’s Litany of Lies #1: Laura Bush for years insisted that she was not driving. No, Laura, we have the police report.

Snopes says: "17-year-old Laura Welch had run a stop sign" (check!)

Laura’s Litany of Lies #2: Laura Bush said that it was raining and slick. No, Laura, the weather was dry and clear. We have the police report.

Snopes says: "the future First Lady had been driving her Chevrolet sedan on a clear night shortly after 8 p.m." (check!)

Laura’s Litany of Lies #3: Laura Bush said that her boyfriend was riding in an open jeep. No, Laura, it was a 1962 Corvair Sedan. We have the police report.

Snopes says: "collided with the Corvair sedan" (check!)

Laura’s Litany of Lies #4: Laura Bush said that Michael Douglas was not her boyfriend. No, Laura, the District Attorney said that Michael Dutton Douglas was your boyfriend when he released the police report!

Snopes says: "advanced in the 2002 biography of the Bushes, George and Laura: Portrait of an American Marriage, which states Laura Welch and Michael Douglas had dated throughout early and mid-1963" (check!)

Didn't include the last two since they are based more on 'he said, she said' type of stuff, so I just included the facts that Snopes backed up.

So yes, even that site does back up the facts. We'd have to see the police report to verify some of the other stuff. As I said, to me, Laura Bush is about as empty-minded as they come, so I highly doubt she would have been able to pull something like this off to such perfection.

So it's not as much a story of "jealous ex-gf plots to murder her old bf,' but more just a story of 'a ditzy young girl drives recklessly, causes the death of a high school friend.'

Originally posted by W_HAMILTON

Laura’s Litany of Lies #1: Laura Bush for years insisted that she was not driving. No, Laura, we have the police report.

Snopes says: "17-year-old Laura Welch had run a stop sign" (check!)

Laura’s Litany of Lies #2: Laura Bush said that it was raining and slick. No, Laura, the weather was dry and clear. We have the police report.

Snopes says: "the future First Lady had been driving her Chevrolet sedan on a clear night shortly after 8 p.m." (check!)

Laura’s Litany of Lies #3: Laura Bush said that her boyfriend was riding in an open jeep. No, Laura, it was a 1962 Corvair Sedan. We have the police report.

Snopes says: "collided with the Corvair sedan" (check!)

Laura’s Litany of Lies #4: Laura Bush said that Michael Douglas was not her boyfriend. No, Laura, the District Attorney said that Michael Dutton Douglas was your boyfriend when he released the police report!

Snopes says: "advanced in the 2002 biography of the Bushes, George and Laura: Portrait of an American Marriage, which states Laura Welch and Michael Douglas had dated throughout early and mid-1963" (check!)

Let's go through your fact checks - where on snopes does it say (1) She claimed not to be driving? or (2) that it was raining? or (3) that she claimed her "boyfriend" drove a Jeep; and (4) it states everywhere clearly that she was NOT dating Michael Douglas, the fact that one of her friends was dating him shows clearly that she was ok with it.

You defamers forget that she was not alone in the car " Also in the car with Laura Welch was a passenger, 17-year-old Judy Dykes." so once again you are implying that not only was Laura a killer but she had accomplice to the fact.

" According to the police report neither driver had been drinking, but no tests were performed. No charges were filed as a result of the accident."

Are you implying that the police knew that she would be the Presidents wife one day and decided to cover up the crime? get real.

was the lie about the pregnancy also in the police report. Honestly this is pure defamation, in an anonymous e-mail the culprit may get away with this, but on a credible source like ATS it may be construed as defamation. I am totally horrified by this posting.

I already said I don't think it was some elaborate plot to kill an ex-boyfriend, in my mind Laura is far too dense to orchestrate something like that.

But I guess it's kinda like Kerry's medical history in Vietnam, if you don't have anything to hide, why not release it to the public, right?

And this is a debate site, a conspiracy site, so I would imagine a more conspiratorial side of the story is certainly something that would be up for debate here.

actually this site I believe prides itself on substantiating its statements with facts or reliable references. This was one of the reasons that the Predictions forum was moved, and why sites like rense.com are laughed at.

[edit on 21-10-2004 by Mynaeris]

Umm, I see all kinds of outrageous posts here every day. That's what people do. If you think something is outrageous, just try to debunk it. I think it's an interesting discussion either way, too bad the reports are sealed I guess so we can't really see what was in them. Just have to rely on more unreliable sources, no matter which 'side' you are on.

I'm still interested why they never checked her blood/alcohol level, I guess it wasn't standard procedure back then like it is today, /shrug.

I must say that postings by both W Hamilton and twitchy will in future not hold any credibility with me and probably with other people at ATS.

I think getting pleasure out of the tragedy in someone else's life is indicative of your nature. However I will respond to your question as to why Laura Welch was not tested for alcohol - (1) she was 17 years old, (2) there was no indacation of alcohol consumption on her breath (3) it was 1963 and 17 yr old girls didn't get drunk as frequently as 40 years later and (4) she was on her way to a party, not coming home from a party it was 8pm.

Truly not only do you two spread disinformation and propaganda you also do not logic through the puzzle. W hamilton I had read through previous posts and although I could see you were an avid Democrat I had also considered you to be controlled and reasonable. I guess I was mistaken.

Namaste
Mynah.

Wouldn't be the first time you've mischaracterized me then; I'm an 'avid' Democrat? lol I've essentially been a Republican for all but 2-3 years of my life. The only thing I'm avid about is educating people on how poorly this president has lead our nation over the last four years. If Kerry stinks it up as much George Bush has, I'd be voting against him as well.

And I won't repeat for the third time what I think about the Laura Bush situation, I already said what I think really happened. At the same time, this is a conspiracy site so I'm not going to hound someone for posting a more conspiratorial side of what happened. If I didn't care at all about conspriacies, I wouldn't have ever found this site to begin with (in fact I found it out after putting "conspiracy theories" into a search engine, because they always made for interesting reading).

twitchy: you are both defamatory and ignorant, you can't rest your case as it was empty to start off with. Speculation is not proof. YOU HAVE NONE - just random allegations and lies.

Originally posted by infinite8
Teresa Hines Kerry has made the comment the first lady "has never even held a real job." Once again another insult by the Hag Kerry. It seems like the Democrats just can't keep this jacka$$ quiet. Somebody put her in a closet until election. She just does not know when to stop. Later today democrats issued an apology on her part (yah I'm sure she was sorry), after realizing that Mrs. Bush was a librarian, helping teach young children, as well as a mother. I can't stand this lady. I don't want her influencing my life.

It was a lapse of memory, that's all. I'm sure you've never had one of those.

She rocks. I'm sure someone's already mentioned this, but First Lady Laura Bush said it ain't no big deal and she didn't havta apologize. If she's cool wit it, what's yo beef?

Are y'all that hard up for anti-Kerry controversy in these final days of the campaign? It's pretty sad.

The whole point of this was not to bash democrats or republicans, nor for that matter Laura Bush.
The intent of this posting was to question why the democrats don't just get Teresa Kerry behind closed doors and keep her away from cameras and any media for that matter. She is an obvious liability. She does not know when to shut up. She constantly makes derogatory remarks that are not beneficial to the election of her husband. Send her on a secret vacation to Hawaii or Alaska until the after the election.

Originally posted by Mynaeris
twitchy: you are both defamatory and ignorant, you can't rest your case as it was empty to start off with. Speculation is not proof. YOU HAVE NONE - just random allegations and lies.

Let me clue you in on a little something lady, there is no speculation to be made here, Laura Bush is guilty of vehicular man slaughter, wans't even cited for the incident, and there is wide spread belief that the incident was pre-meditated. Random allegations? Would you like a copy of the police report? It's one thing to express your opinions or debate me, but if you want to start calling me ignorant or a liar, we can take it up with the moderators if you like.
Why don't you back off the name calling, and try to accept the fact that Laura Bush may not have been the all american heroine you seem determined to believe that she was. We can call Theresa Kerry a hag, but god help if somebody has some information they can pull up some info on Laura Bush. If it bothers you so bad, debunk it. Otherwise I'd reccomend some anger management. In my opinion, based on the FACTS and research I have done, Laura Bush is a murderer. Does that bother you? Good it bothers me too. Most people get charged with manslaughter, she didn't even get so much as a "bad girl!" out of it. Sorry if it offends you, well, not really.

Yes please share with everybody the police report as you stated in the your earlier posting that the police report has been sealed. BUT if you have a copy sure show us all.

Look!!! This has gone far enough. The name calling will cease now. No matter how ignorant we think another's opinion is, lets have the decency to control our tempers.


I've looked high and low and aside from the rantings of some who lack REAL evidence. I've seen nothing to indicate anything other than an accident like many others that would and do happen everyday. People aren't charged with manslaughter for running stop signs unless under the influence. Are we then to suggest that everyone who has been involved and at fault in a fatal accident be charged with a crime. For a crime to be commited, criminal intent must be proved. It has not in this case. She was not first lady at the time. She did not flee the scene and wait 10 hours to report it and then only because she was linked directly to it. She and her passinger were also injured and treated for wounds from this accident.

As far as we know, this was a couple of absent minded 17 year old girls who probably were not the best drivers anyway that got distracted and ran a stop sign.

I'm a democrat like the both of you who are making these claims but I cannot deal with the inferred evidence that keeps being repeated as fact a little more each time until you now have adopted an alias for Laura Welsh from the incident on false claims. Now, I don't agree with a lot of what Bush has done but its just political blindness and the tendency to fool ones self to make these claims all the while having the facts before you already researched by a reputable source.


And what burns my rear, other than a flame about 3 feet high, is the fact that either of you new found dems would defend what Teddy Kennedy did to that young girl which might have started as a bonafide accident but ended tragically because he failed to get help whether he was too scared or wanted her to die. He was not 17. He was a US senator who is supposed to be able to make critical decisions. There is no excuse good enough for those actions.

However, teen drivers wreck, kill other people, and themselves everyday. Thats why so much money has been put toward driver education. With the safety of automobiles today, many of these intersection crashes happen and people walk away with mere scrapes and bruises. I know. I work closely with my district's traffic safety office.

Cars 40 years ago were not so user friendly and took some skill to operate. They were also constructed differently and the driver took much more of the impact themsleves...and being that Moore was ejected from the vehicle, I doubt anyone in the accident were wearing seat belts.

With today's safety constraints and designs, this likely would have been an accident from which all parties would have walked away.


The bottom line is you people are, as usual, allowing political bias help you construct events as you WISH they would have happened, and we here at ATS do not support such affirmations. While the conspiracy's possibility is welcome, making the judgement and calling this one a fact on no more than what has been presented is not.

If its a theory then we will discuss the theory but as with all theories, once debunked, they go down hard. Search for truth even if its not what you had hoped for.

Lets all go to opposite corners and cool down, get back on topic and present some evidence or opinion in a logical way.

Originally posted by astrocreep
Look!!! This has gone far enough. The name calling will cease now. No matter how ignorant we think another's opinion is, lets have the decency to control our tempers.

Yes let's. Who is 'we' astrocreep? Do you also think my position is 'ignorant'? I'm sure you meant that in a general term, right? If not ignorant would not be a moderators best choice of words. Let's dig in here to your reply and see what we have...

Originally posted by astrocreep
I've looked high and low and aside from the rantings of some who lack REAL evidence. I've seen nothing to indicate anything other than an accident like many others that would and do happen everyday.

Yes accidents do happen everyday. Young girls driving through stop signs at an estimated 50 mph at an intersection you are very familiar with and slamming into your ex-boyfriend who is now dating a good friend of yours and killing him however does not. The 'rantings' of NewsWeek and other credible national sources confirm this 'lack of evidence'.

Originally posted by astrocreep
People aren't charged with manslaughter for running stop signs unless under the influence. Are we then to suggest that everyone who has been involved and at fault in a fatal accident be charged with a crime. For a crime to be commited, criminal intent must be proved. It has not in this case.

Yes people are charged with manslaughter. Amunsgt other possible charges that are levied in this type of accident, we have quite a variety of them from criminal negligence, reckless endangerment, to running a stop sign, unsafe movement, and so on and so forth. Laura Bush was not even cited for running a stop sign. For a crime to be commited, criminal intent must be proved? LOL Tell that to a cop next time you get pulled over for speeding. "You can't write me that ticket officer, I had no intention of speeding..." yeah. For insurance purposes, and Law Enforcement Purposes, someone was faulted with the accident, but amazingly not one single charge was filed, not one citation was named. Not even a traffic ticket? Wow, are you suggesting law enforcement issues citations only if they can prove intent? This happens every day?

Originally posted by astrocreep
She was not first lady at the time.

Who said she was?

Originally posted by astrocreep
She did not flee the scene and wait 10 hours to report it and then only because she was linked directly to it.

Who said she did?

Originally posted by astrocreep
She and her passinger were also injured and treated for wounds from this accident.

Yup. Minor wounds. And?

Originally posted by astrocreep
As far as we know, this was a couple of absent minded 17 year old girls who probably were not the best drivers anyway that got distracted and ran a stop sign.

I thought you said...

...allowing political bias help you construct events as you WISH they would have happened, and we here at ATS do not support such affirmations.

As far as we know there were space aliens in the back seat holding plasma rifles to the girls' heads and threatening to hold them hostage in exchange for the recipie for cracker jacks, but the fact remains that Laura Bush went through a stop sign at an intersection that she knew very well, only a few miles from her home, and killed somebody she knew very very well. Calling the kettle black doesn't make the soup taste better.

Originally posted by astrocreep
I'm a democrat like the both of you who are making these claims

I'm not a democrat. Thanks for asking though, cause you know what they say about assumptions.

Originally posted by astrocreep
but I cannot deal with the inferred evidence that keeps being repeated as fact a little more each time until you now have adopted an alias for Laura Welsh from the incident on false claims. Now, I don't agree with a lot of what Bush has done but its just political blindness and the tendency to fool ones self to make these claims all the while having the facts before you already researched by a reputable source.

You mean like snopes.com? Or do you mean the police report, statements by the district attorney for midland texas? News Week? Hmmm political blindless, wouldn't that imply that despite the facts, I was trying to deny something that was researched and proven? Now as to my stating facts that aren't backed up, If you will read my post, I am pretty sure I said "in my opinon based on the research I have done". But for your benefit let's start off with something simple, there were no charges filed, it was her ex. Can you debunk that?

Originally posted by astrocreep
And what burns my rear, other than a flame about 3 feet high, is the fact that either of you new found dems would defend what Teddy Kennedy did to that young girl which might have started as a bonafide accident but ended tragically because he failed to get help whether he was too scared or wanted her to die. He was not 17. He was a US senator who is supposed to be able to make critical decisions. There is no excuse good enough for those actions.

Again, I'm not a democrat. Certainly not a 'newfound' one whatever that means, and I have not mentioned anything about Ted Kennedy, nor have I tried to defend him. It's amazing how people drag things into a debate which are completely irrelevant. Did you ask me about my opinions regarding Ted Kennedy or did you assume something about me?

Originally posted by astrocreep
However, teen drivers wreck, kill other people, and themselves everyday. Thats why so much money has been put toward driver education. With the safety of automobiles today, many of these intersection crashes happen and people walk away with mere scrapes and bruises. I know. I work closely with my district's traffic safety office.

Teens also are convicted of violent crimes, everyday. Money is spent drivers' education... wow, that's relevant.

Originally posted by astrocreep
Cars 40 years ago were not so user friendly and took some skill to operate. They were also constructed differently and the driver took much more of the impact themsleves...and being that Moore was ejected from the vehicle, I doubt anyone in the accident were wearing seat belts. With today's safety constraints and designs, this likely would have been an accident from which all parties would have walked away.

I would reply to this but I just can't see that it is relevant at all to even your own argument, unless you are trying to suggest that the vehicle was responsible for his death because it wasnt user friendly. Kinda like that old saying guns don't kill people, except in this case, cars don't kill people, drivers do.

Originally posted by astrocreep
The bottom line is you people are, as usual, allowing political bias help you construct events as you WISH they would have happened, and we here at ATS do not support such affirmations. While the conspiracy's possibility is welcome, making the judgement and calling this one a fact on no more than what has been presented is not.
If its a theory then we will discuss the theory but as with all theories, once debunked, they go down hard. Search for truth even if its not what you had hoped for.

Now here I think you are using your position as a moderator unfairly. I have presented an argument, I have posted facts, provided quotes to support my argument, and stated my opinions- and you don't like it. Like I said, IN MY OPINION BASED ON THE RESEARCH I HAVE DONE. I don't know what is more appropriate of the ATS web site than that. You disagree with it, thats fine, debunk the information if you don't like it. But using your position as a moderator to claim that ATS doesn't support affirmations, well let's just say I hope you are a little more responsible and unbiased than that. Just in case though I'm going to ask some other moderators to take a look at this thread and see what they think.