Interactive: Republicans / Conservatives / Libertarians: Let's write a new party platform

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posted on Nov, 9 2012 @ 04:01 PM
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Hello ATS. I am darkbake. I grew up in a traditional family, was Episcopalian and then went to a liberal arts college to study psychology, math, physics, computer science and music. I am currently a moderate who voted for Gary Johnson (Libertarian presidential candidate), to legalize gay marriage (in Washington State) and to legalize something else (also in Washington State).

Although I mostly support the Democrats, I would be willing to bail and support the Republicans if they got their act together and made some positive policy. I think there is room for improvement, and I also think there are certain issues that Democrats are not seeing clearly, but that Republicans are not calling them on. So… why don’t we start? Here are some lists of issues. The idea is to come up with something fresh and positive that appeals to people, instead of negative and harassing. If you don't like the way something is, how would you change it in a cool, innovative way?

Wikipedia: Political Issues

 Abortion
 Affirmative action
 Agricultural policy and land reform
 Animal rights and animal testing
 Capital punishment
 Censorship
 Internet censorship
 Freedom of speech
 Freedom of the press
 Internet taxation
 Climate change policy
 Direct democracy
 Disarmament and nonproliferation
 Drug policy and reform
 Education policy and reform
 Electoral reform
 Foreign policy
 Gay rights and gay marriage
 Gun rights and gun control
 Health care policy and reform
 Immigration policy and reform
 Israeli-Palestinian conflict
 Language policy
 Lobbying
 Medical marijuana
 NATO expansion
 Nuclear testing
 Political corruption
 Race relations
 Science and technology policy
 Separation of church and state
 Space policy
 Stem cells and the stem cell controversy
 Tax reform
 Terrorism, counter-terrorism, and the War on Terrorism
 Trade
 War
 Welfare reform



Also, here is a list of economic issues to be explored.

Wikipedia: Economic Issues

A
• ► Anti-competitive behaviour‎
B
• ► Bribery‎
• ► Economic bubbles‎
• ► Business failures‎
C
• ► Child labour‎
• ► Child poverty‎
• ► Commercial crimes‎
• ► Corporate crime‎
• ► Corporate scandals‎
• ► Corruption‎
D
• ► Debt‎
D cont.
• ► Economic disasters‎
E
• ► Economic crises‎
• ► Economic inequality‎
• ► Energy crises‎
• ► Ethically disputed business practices‎
F
• ► Financial crises‎
H
• ► Housing problems‎
I
• ► Inflation‎
M
• ► Market failure‎
• ► Monetary hegemony‎
• ► Monopoly (economics)‎
O
• ► Offshoring‎
P
• ► Economics paradoxes‎
• ► Personal financial problems‎
• ► Poverty‎
• ► Economic puzzles‎
R
• ► Recessions‎
S
• ► Social inequality‎
• ► Stock market crashes‎
U
• ► Unemployment
• ► Urban decay‎



Let’s get into some serious conversation here. Productive comments and ideas are appreciated, and try to build on other people’s posts. If you don’t know where to start, pick a topic and go to the Wikipedia page, research it, and then post something. Or, you can reply to what someone else says.

There should be no shortage of things to talk about in this thread. I will try to keep things positive around here.

Go, go, go! Lol if no one is interested I might just fill this out myself. Another option is to make smaller threads on each topic and link to them from here.

That's probably a better idea... I might do a weekly thing for a while.
edit on 9-11-2012 by darkbake because: (no reason given)




posted on Nov, 9 2012 @ 04:10 PM
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Cheers for an ambitious thread!

I stated in another post that in order to return to a prosperous country, we need to loosen the yoke that government has placed on us with entitlements.

My platform idea is to start getting America to return their government checks.

Start becoming financially secure.

How?

If you are currently getting checks from the government, then (if you are able) you need to look at how you're spending your money. Are you doing it to get by until the next check? Then you need to start looking at how you can USE that check to make more money for yourself. Education, investing (personal, business) are just a couple of ways to create more money for yourself and loosen the yoke of "entitlement slavery" from the government.

The more money you make for yourself, the less influence the government has over you.

With less government influence, then local areas, states, can make the decisions that they want for the people that they represent.



posted on Nov, 9 2012 @ 04:24 PM
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Great thread.

Just as an outsider looking in, I would add that I feel bad for fiscally conservative voters like Beezer because you cannot vote that way without voting for all the other completely insane things which the party supports. It's probably intentional that we as voters only have 2 concrete camps by which we ally ourselves to.
This thread will lead to very healthy thinking. I would strongly suggest that the current GOP dial back all the religious zealotry. It's just too much. Nothing wrong at all with loving Christ, but let's not the Bible dictate a 21st century America.


 
Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com
 



posted on Nov, 9 2012 @ 04:28 PM
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reply to post by darkbake
 


I will probably come back to others but let us start with Welfare. It does not work. If you really want it to work, to get people regardless of color to be able to advance, there is an answer just one that no one will like. Have you ever heard the statement that if you want to become a millionaire you have to hang out with millionaire's? It is not about money but about ways of thinking and culture. I suggest that if anyone wants to be on welfare they be allowed to with one proviso. They must move and live in a neighborhood of successful people. A requirement of this program would be there can only be one such family per neighborhood. No hanging around the hood, no hanging with your loser buddy's, no excuses for failing at school. No visiting family unless they are already successful. A complete culture change. For those of you who might be upset at having this loser in your neighborhood look at the bright side. There can only be one so your property values will not drop much if at all. If you help him succeed in changing his mindset to one that is successful then you are more then just getting your money back when he does. If however it is found that this person DOES go back or hangs with the loser's again they are PERMANENTLY cut off. I have lived in the slums before. Where the police refused to go. Many of the people there were good people who would try anything they could but they had no hope because all around them all they could see was failure. Another saying. It is difficult to fly with eagles when you are surrounded by nothing except turkeys.
Actually this is the short version. There is a lot more to how to do this the thing to remember is it DOES work.



posted on Nov, 9 2012 @ 04:30 PM
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 Abortion: not illegal but not subsidized in any form
 Affirmative action: no
 Agricultural policy and land reform: no subsidies
 Animal rights and animal testing: if we are allowed to murder babies, why would animals be protected?
 Capital punishment: for murder and pedophiles
 Censorship: none
 Internet censorship: none
 Freedom of speech: absolute
 Freedom of the press: absolute
 Internet taxation: sales taxes only
 Climate change policy: man made global warming is a lie
 Direct democracy: no
 Disarmament and nonproliferation: two separate issues
 Drug policy and reform: Prohibition doesn't work
 Education policy and reform: Education is not a one size fits all issue. Handle locally with state oversight
 Electoral reform: Disband the electoral college. Popular vote. No winner takes all in states.
 Foreign policy: Isolationism
 Gay rights and gay marriage: Marriage=1man 1woman. Go with legal civil unions with equal benefits.
 Gun rights and gun control: The right to keep and bare arms shall not be infringed
 Health care policy and reform: Government has no business here
 Immigration policy and reform: all illegals should be rounded up and deported. Legal immigration

 Israeli-Palestinian conflict: Pro-Israel
 Language policy: English to be national language
 Lobbying: None
 Medical marijuana: See drug policy
 NATO expansion: Isolationism
 Nuclear testing: As needed
 Political corruption: Corrupt public officials get life in prison and all assets confiscate. No parole
 Race relations: All persons are created equal
 Science and technology policy: No subsidies
 Separation of church and state: Freedom of religion is not freedom from religion
 Space policy: private enterprise. No subsidies but no interference
 Stem cells and the stem cell controversy: Allow continued research into adult stem cell applications.
 Tax reform: Abolish all current taxation and institute the Fair Tax
 Terrorism, counter-terrorism, and the War on Terrorism: A fallacy, end it
 Trade: Protectionism to encourage regrowth of US industry
 War: Defense only. If attacked completely annihilate attacker and all supporters of attacker
 Welfare reform: 4 years lifetime maximum. During that 4 years all expenses paid including job training and child care, medical etc... Can be broken up into 2 sections 2-2 1-3, 3-1 etc... 4 years lifetime MAX.



Also, here is a list of economic issues to be explored.

Wikipedia: Economic Issues

A
• ► Anti-competitive behaviour‎
B
• ► Banking: No bank or financial institution may operate in more than one state. No fractional reserve banking
• ► Economic bubbles‎: End the fed
• ► Business failures‎: No business is too big to fail
C
• ► Child labour‎
• ► Child poverty‎
• ► Commercial crimes‎
• ► Corporate crime: Corporations are not people. Corporations may face their own "death penalty" ‎
• ► Corporate scandals‎
• ► Corruption‎
D
• ► Debt‎: Repudiation and a jubilee year. Complete reset.
D cont.
• ► Economic disasters‎
E
• ► Economic crises‎
• ► Economic inequality‎
• ► Energy crises‎
• ► Ethically disputed business practices‎
F
• ► Financial crises‎
H
• ► Housing problems‎
I
• ► Inflation‎: End The Fed and Fractional Reserve Banking. Use a precious metals standard
M
• ► Market failure‎
• ► Monetary hegemony‎: End the fed
• ► Monopoly (economics)‎: See bank policy and apply to all businesses
O
• ► Offshoring‎: Protectionist policies
P
• ► Economics paradoxes‎
• ► Personal financial problems‎: Personal Responsibility
• ► Poverty‎
• ► Economic puzzles‎
R
• ► Recessions‎: End The Fed
S
• ► Social inequality‎:
• ► Stock market crashes‎
U
• ► Unemployment
• ► Urban decay‎


I addressed most of your issues. Some I did not address are too complicated to handle with 1-2 lines and would need their own thread.
edit on 9-11-2012 by DarthMuerte because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 9 2012 @ 04:44 PM
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reply to post by darkbake
 

Capital punishment should continue. However! Immunity for police and prosecutors should be removed in cases up for capital punishment. By that what I really mean is any police officer, any prosecutor, anybody on the state side including the judge, should evidence of fraud, witness tampering, perjury, withholding evidence or any other misdeeds should IMMEDIATELY be placed on trial for attempted murder. No mistakes allowed, no good faith anything, no excuses acceptable. Goes for the labs and expert witnesses as well. If you want to kill a man with my money then you damm sure better have the legal, untainted, unfalseified, true evidence to do it or YOU pay the price. Less people would be up for capital punishment, prosecutors would not take cases just to make a name for themselves or to make a point with someone's life. Lab techs would make sure they got it right too. So would the witnesses. Yet those that there is REAL proof of need to be killed will be killed. I forgot something else. If a prosecutor were to bring such a case and lose even if nothing was done illegally the prosecutor would be personally responsible for paying for expenses and compensation to the accused as well as to the court. A judge that STRETCHED the law in either way, technical or otherwise, would not only be removed from the bench but also be put on trial for at minimal fraud. Later on we could extend this to other trials as well as we got the kinks out of it. No more destroying people for the fun of it, for advancing political carrers, or for them not having the proper attitude.



posted on Nov, 9 2012 @ 05:19 PM
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reply to post by darkbake
 


LBGT 'civil unions need to be at the top of the list, not "marriage" that is between a man and a woman, but an equal union in "civil union" or " insert any word words you like except marriage". As too many of them are not able to suffer equally after making a legal contract with someone they thought they would love forever.


Abortion, should be legal IMHO, I dont like it, and consider it a moral travesty, but who am I to decide things that effect another for their entire lifetime?

All laws must be readable and understandable by most common folks, and may not exceed 1000 words for any reason.

There can only be a maximum of 10,000 laws on the books at any time, without exception. So if they wanna pass a new one, an old one must go. Otherwise we end up with the bloated monstrosity of a legal code we have today, besides 10K should be more than plenty.

Politicians may make no more than the average income of the people in his district, so the always maintain a similar standard of living as the constiuents.

No politician may take ANY outside form of payment at an time for any reason EVER, as they are there to do the peoples work, no get paid for being a :'yesman" for special intrests. failure to comply is an automatic 5 year sentence and permanent ban from any further participation in any public office.

There should be no minimum wage, as it only brings more people down into poverty, and doesnt help anyone up out of it. Instead wages should be based off of a percentage of companies profits. I e.. walmart shouldnt make hundreds of billions a year, and have the majority of their emploees subsidised by the tax payers. In effect cutting them a check for billions a year for their profit margins. If they are making billions, they can pay their workers enough to live well.

Just for starters, I have more if your interested.



posted on Nov, 9 2012 @ 05:33 PM
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 Stem cells and the stem cell controversy:
I had to look into this one real quick. Apparently there is no evidence that stem cells from fetuses work. However adult stem cells show much promise. Allow continued research into adult stem cell applications.



posted on Nov, 9 2012 @ 05:37 PM
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reply to post by beezzer
 


It is an ambitious thread. I will try to focus my attention on it for a while instead of starting new topics. I think individual sovereignty is a good place to start for a positive platform. It is harder to be sovereign if you have to rely on you nation for resources like money for food and shelter.

I think that the current system could be maintained and monitored for civility but modified in order to promote people to gain empowerment over their lives, if they wish.

Like Beezer said, there should be ways for individuals to invest in their future and bonuses for individuals who do productive things like get an education or stay together as a family.

I believe staying together as a family is important, and a staple of the middle-class. It should be easier to raise kids and maintain a decent income with two parents. I know a lot of single mothers my age, and they hardly have enough time to go to their 10-hour shifts at work and see their kids, whom they usually share custody with.

Families also provide financial security for the younger generations, and grow over time, allowing for more ambition than an individual is capable of on his or her own. While I would not limit families to male-female relationships, I would support benefits for those who maintain long-term relationships, and even support adoption by gay couples.



posted on Nov, 10 2012 @ 12:45 AM
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reply to post by inverslyproportional
 


I will tackle the issue of same-sex marriage. Marriage is definitely something that is considered religious. There is one Christian religion that accepts gay marriage, and that is Episcopalianism. Maybe the Episcopalian Church can make a deal with the U.S. government to provide same-sex marriage ceremonies? It might even increase their numbers here in the U.S.
edit on 10-11-2012 by darkbake because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 10 2012 @ 01:48 AM
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reply to post by darkbake
 


I am not entirely against the idea myself, as I understand the complex nature of human behavior, and am not one to try and tell another what makes them happy.

If your a male and you like males, well good for you, at least you have found whhat "you" like in this world, I congradulate and admire you, the same goes for females thhat are in to females, congrats, glad you found your "the one". May you live long and love much!

The problem seems to be in the definition, and this is a tiny semantic hang up that seems easily fixed. Call it "insert word or words other than marriage here".

Those at issue with the subject get to keep "marriage" a "sacred" as they feel necessary, and you get to "marry" your true love.

I just don't see the big deal here, the definition is as old as man, when you want to deviate to make yourself happy do so, just don't try to force everyone else to accept your particular, self appoointed definition, upon an already age old and long defined "word".

If you are defying the "norm" make a different ( but equal)( not segregation of the 50s kind but actual equal) definition that suits your particular idiology.

I think the LGBT sort are just "off", but that doesn't mean they aren't human, and don't deserve to be treated as equals.

It just means they wanna be "different", which is fine, and I applaud their finding what makes them happy. It is however, not the age old norm, and doesn't need to be accepted as such, it is "different" and it does defy social norms.

Though it is still acceptable, and in no way "wrong", it is simply not main stream.

Everyone doesn't need to, nor should they feel compelled to accept their take as "normal" as it isn't. "Normal" is defined by the majority, they are outside of it, they just need to accept this and deal with it.

I like many things that aren't "normal" yet I don't try to force my minority stance on the majority, I just do me, and let the majority do them. If I am comfortable with my individual vviews on things, I shoulnt require my minority view to be "forced" on the majority.

It is all common sense, and I feel honesty, that a lot of minorities feel the need to try and validate their beliefs by trying to "force" them on the majority.

Which only leads to "push back"( opposite and equal reaction) which will always be the only result they garner.

This is of colurse only my humble opinions, and not meant to be the "gospel truth". Just one hetero mans view of the world.



posted on Nov, 10 2012 @ 02:02 AM
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I would say from an outsiders point of view, the republican party needs to look at the demographics that it is missing out on. It needs to be more inclusive. The demographics of America are changing, if the republicans fail to become more inclusive, then they will be left in the political wilderness. Many Hispanics and blacks share the same conservative family values, but do not feel like the Republican party wants them.



posted on Nov, 10 2012 @ 02:33 AM
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Originally posted by DarthMuerte
 Abortion: not illegal but not subsidized in any form
 Affirmative action: no
 Agricultural policy and land reform: no subsidies
 Animal rights and animal testing: if we are allowed to murder babies, why would animals be protected?
 Capital punishment: for murder and pedophiles
 Censorship: none
 Internet censorship: none
 Freedom of speech: absolute
 Freedom of the press: absolute
 Internet taxation: sales taxes only
 Climate change policy: man made global warming is a lie
 Direct democracy: no
 Disarmament and nonproliferation: two separate issues
 Drug policy and reform: Prohibition doesn't work
 Education policy and reform: Education is not a one size fits all issue. Handle locally with state oversight
 Electoral reform: Disband the electoral college. Popular vote. No winner takes all in states.
 Foreign policy: Isolationism
 Gay rights and gay marriage: Marriage=1man 1woman. Go with legal civil unions with equal benefits.
 Gun rights and gun control: The right to keep and bare arms shall not be infringed
 Health care policy and reform: Government has no business here
 Immigration policy and reform: all illegals should be rounded up and deported. Legal immigration

 Israeli-Palestinian conflict: Pro-Israel
 Language policy: English to be national language
 Lobbying: None
 Medical marijuana: See drug policy
 NATO expansion: Isolationism
 Nuclear testing: As needed
 Political corruption: Corrupt public officials get life in prison and all assets confiscate. No parole
 Race relations: All persons are created equal
 Science and technology policy: No subsidies
 Separation of church and state: Freedom of religion is not freedom from religion
 Space policy: private enterprise. No subsidies but no interference
 Stem cells and the stem cell controversy: Allow continued research into adult stem cell applications.
 Tax reform: Abolish all current taxation and institute the Fair Tax
 Terrorism, counter-terrorism, and the War on Terrorism: A fallacy, end it
 Trade: Protectionism to encourage regrowth of US industry
 War: Defense only. If attacked completely annihilate attacker and all supporters of attacker
 Welfare reform: 4 years lifetime maximum. During that 4 years all expenses paid including job training and child care, medical etc... Can be broken up into 2 sections 2-2 1-3, 3-1 etc... 4 years lifetime MAX.



Also, here is a list of economic issues to be explored.

Wikipedia: Economic Issues

A
• ► Anti-competitive behaviour‎
B
• ► Banking: No bank or financial institution may operate in more than one state. No fractional reserve banking
• ► Economic bubbles‎: End the fed
• ► Business failures‎: No business is too big to fail
C
• ► Child labour‎
• ► Child poverty‎
• ► Commercial crimes‎
• ► Corporate crime: Corporations are not people. Corporations may face their own "death penalty" ‎
• ► Corporate scandals‎
• ► Corruption‎
D
• ► Debt‎: Repudiation and a jubilee year. Complete reset.
D cont.
• ► Economic disasters‎
E
• ► Economic crises‎
• ► Economic inequality‎
• ► Energy crises‎
• ► Ethically disputed business practices‎
F
• ► Financial crises‎
H
• ► Housing problems‎
I
• ► Inflation‎: End The Fed and Fractional Reserve Banking. Use a precious metals standard
M
• ► Market failure‎
• ► Monetary hegemony‎: End the fed
• ► Monopoly (economics)‎: See bank policy and apply to all businesses
O
• ► Offshoring‎: Protectionist policies
P
• ► Economics paradoxes‎
• ► Personal financial problems‎: Personal Responsibility
• ► Poverty‎
• ► Economic puzzles‎
R
• ► Recessions‎: End The Fed
S
• ► Social inequality‎:
• ► Stock market crashes‎
U
• ► Unemployment
• ► Urban decay‎


I addressed most of your issues. Some I did not address are too complicated to handle with 1-2 lines and would need their own thread.
edit on 9-11-2012 by DarthMuerte because: (no reason given)


Who is allowed to murder babies?


And why have you not reported those people to the police?



posted on Nov, 10 2012 @ 03:01 AM
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reply to post by woodwardjnr
 


I would like to say thank you even though we disagree.
Inclusive is wrong! It is the problem with ALL political party's and I would not have noticed if not for your post. The first duty of a party is to determine what it stands for. That MUST NOT change. EVERYONE must agree to that otherwise the party will be hijacked. Those values of the party must not change just to include someone else. To accept others into that party they must agree one hundred percent with those values. Only after that agreement is reached can we talk about any other issues or values that might be added. If the party agrees with those ADDITIONAL values then we add them. Otherwise no. The first values must not change or the party is not a party. I realize this goes against recent beliefs but it must be held to or you will have what has been happening to ALL the party's over the last two decades. Maybe you call it party purity. It does not matter to me what it is called. If you take the meat out of a cheeseburger then it is not a cheeseburger. Call it something else.



posted on Nov, 10 2012 @ 03:03 AM
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reply to post by woodwardjnr
 


You are very right, Hispanics and African-Americans do seem to have strong family values, especially Hispanics, but seem to be demonized by conservatives. Improving relations with other ethnic groups and accepting other worldviews will only create allies.

If it is part of the Republican party's ideology to be racist, then... that is a problem.
edit on 10-11-2012 by darkbake because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 10 2012 @ 03:10 AM
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reply to post by inverslyproportional
 


Well, I think there is an issue with forcing religions that don't believe in same-sex marriage to marry gay couples - since there happens to be a Christian faith that does support this, the solution seems reasonable.



posted on Nov, 10 2012 @ 03:22 AM
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reply to post by darkbake
 

Ok then lets accept the Taliban world view to be inclusive. Or the Pakistani one that attacks young girls for going to school. Or the one Muslims in France have that rape of women who wear skirts is not only permitted but approved of? Accepting another world view JUST to get votes is something the Liberal's do. THEY would go along with it for the votes. That is something those who have joined the Liberals do not yet understand. Their party will be willing to sell them out for someone who has more votes. A conservative will not. At least not yet but I notice a whole lot of people calling for it.



posted on Nov, 10 2012 @ 04:38 AM
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reply to post by darkbake
 


 Abortion - legal until 4-5th month, subsidized for the poor
 Affirmative action - nope, AA is racism
 Agricultural policy and land reform - no subsidies
 Animal rights and animal testing - no animal abuse and torture
 Capital punishment - nope
 Censorship - nope
 Internet censorship - nope
 Freedom of speech - absolute
 Freedom of the press - absolute
 Internet taxation - nope
 Climate change policy - generous support of research into green technology, let the market handle the rest
 Direct democracy - expand direct democratic elements
 Disarmament and nonproliferation - continue current policy
 Drug policy and reform - decriminalisation of users is a must
 Education policy and reform - i have no opinion
 Electoral reform - electoral college should be changed somehow
 Foreign policy - moderate interventionism, but not by waging wars unless absolutely necessary
 Gay rights and gay marriage - abolish legal marriage
 Gun rights and gun control - keep status quo
 Health care policy and reform - simplify the system, parallel public and private healthcare systems
 Immigration policy and reform - kick dem illegals out and restrict immigration to those who are of high value on job market only and hold values compatible with western culture
 Israeli-Palestinian conflict - two-state solution
 Language policy - english as an official language
 Lobbying - dunno
 Medical marijuana - allowed
 NATO expansion - only after careful consideration
 Nuclear testing - well regulated but allowed
 Political corruption - massive use of disguised law enforcement as provocateurs
 Race relations - not a racist
 Science and technology policy - increase funding
 Separation of church and state - absolute
 Space policy - use private companies instead of NASA, increase funding
 Stem cells and the stem cell controversy - stem cell research vigorously pursued with no restrictions
 Tax reform - Fair tax or something similar
 Terrorism, counter-terrorism, and the War on Terrorism - end wars and revisit the concept of a terrorist, but I have little compassion for actual terrorists, use those as a cannon fodder to keep our military sharp
 Trade - keep status quo
 War - end them
 Welfare reform - establish limits on child benefits and absolute limits
edit on 10/11/12 by Maslo because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 10 2012 @ 06:02 AM
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reply to post by Jerk_Idiot
 


Well I was thinking more along the lines of looking for ideals that would appeal to both minorities like Hispanics and Blacks and the conservatives, not compromising values.

Also, there are a lot of Hispanics and Blacks that would agree with conservative views as they are if they felt accepted.

I'm glad you don't want to accept the Pakistani, Taliban or Muslim world-views that you mentioned. That seems like a good message. I could see it being applied to other situations as well.
edit on 10-11-2012 by darkbake because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 10 2012 @ 06:13 AM
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reply to post by Maslo
 

How can you support murder of children, yet oppose capital punishment? Innocent babies who have done nothing but be conceived due to their parents carelessness = worthy of death. Charles Manson = worthy of life?





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