Nearly everyone on UK paedophile ring list is a Freemason says abuse victim

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posted on Nov, 13 2012 @ 05:51 AM
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Originally posted by blupblup
Everyone should watch the Full Channel 4 report from last night, it's extremely revealing and interesting.

It most certainly is, many thanks and S&F for that


I've quoted the video as it's probably the best and most detailed posted in the thread, very on topic with the discussion and worth a watch by anyone catching the tail end of the thread




posted on Nov, 13 2012 @ 05:54 AM
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Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
It was already as MI6 is not structured similar to Masonry as you posited.


And how is MI6 structured? Please enlighten me as to the dissimilarities of said structures.

Either way, I made no such claim, I said, that when deciding to set up an organised intelligence service those in charge likened it to a 'new form' of Freemasonry. Not an exact copy. I was inferring a 'state of mind' or a commonly held perception. I made no claims beyond that.

I then went onto say that the structure of Freemasonry is tried and tested. In a seperate and new paragraph. Do you disagree, that the structure of Freemasonry is tried and tested? Do you disagree that as a means of administrating disparate groups over a wide geographical area it is has been successful?

Now given that those who I am referring to, such as Mansfield Cummings, would have been referring to the way in which UGLE is administered, but as I do not read minds, especially of men long dead, I can only assume what they meant by that. The point I was trying to make is that any group can emulate such a structure, or even claim to be freemasons, but unless they follow the same ordnance or are verified or given authority by those overseering what is or is not legitimate practice, they are not freemasons. Do you disagree with that?

So...with that in mind, the structure of Freemasonry...


In Freemasonry a Grand Master is the leader of the lodges within his Masonic jurisdiction. He presides over a Grand Lodge, and has certain rights in the constituent lodges that form his jurisdiction.

Just as the Worshipful Master of a lodge annually appoints lodge officers to assist him, so the Grand Master of each Grand Lodge annually appoints grand lodge officers to assist him in his work. Grand Lodges often elect or appoint Deputy Grand Masters who can act on behalf of the Grand Master when he is unable to do so. In English Freemasonry, where a member of the Royal Family is often the Grand Master, he may also appoint a Pro Grand Master to deputise for him when he is involved in affairs of State. The Pro Grand Master has no function when the Grand Master is present, and is distinct from the Deputy Grand Master.

There are two distinct traditions in connection with the office of Grand Master. Generally speaking the European practice is for the same Grand Master to be re-elected for several consecutive years, maybe even several decades, whilst in other countries a Grand Master serves a set term of only one to three years, and then retires.

en.wikipedia.org...

We can see here clearly that even amongst differing groups of Freemasons the way in which appointments and terms are administered differs. The means of administration changes while the structure remains consistent. Structure and administration not being entirely the same thing.

I’m stating the obvious here, but given your obtuse inability or unwillingness to understand the point being made I feel that it is necessary, but an intelligence service is tasked with obtaining intelligence, I assume that that is not the objective of freemasonry, would that be correct? So we can perhaps assume that what those men were implying by ‘Let’s start a new form of Freemasonry’, was that they intended to base it on the means of swearing an oath of allegiance and using a pyramidical structure of hierarchy based on a need to know basis of that gathered intelligence. That is the person at the bottom does not have direct contact to the person at the top and must go through intermediaries in order to report on the intelligence that they gather. And that they would use signs and symbols to identify each other should that need arise, and to communicate said allegiance. That is what I believed I was implying, and why I can understand criminal organisations adopting similar patterns of behaviour, etc. I thought that that would constitute common sense and felt no need to elucidate, I obviously should not have made the assumption that all members here possessed such common sense and intelligence to make that simple leap. I apologise for that.


Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
Yes, name calling and vulgarity couched in the form of abbreviations denote a even temperment.

Clearly you don’t get out much, because I call a spade a spade, and use vulgar terms quite often for emphasis, not because I have lost my temper. If I experienced any emotional response to your rather infantile stance, I can assure you it was only amusement. However, if I disturbed your obviously delicate sensibilities, I again apologise.



posted on Nov, 13 2012 @ 06:06 AM
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reply to post by lifttheveil
 


I have a question about this and i will apologise in advance if it has already been asked. I am making no comment either way about these claims apart from "how does the victim know they are nearly all Freemasons?"

Seriously, how can they possibly know this? Do they have access to a list with all the UK Freemasons on it? (If so, can i have a copy?
).



posted on Nov, 13 2012 @ 06:16 AM
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Originally posted by Flavian
reply to post by lifttheveil
 


I have a question about this and i will apologise in advance if it has already been asked. I am making no comment either way about these claims apart from "how does the victim know they are nearly all Freemasons?"

Seriously, how can they possibly know this? Do they have access to a list with all the UK Freemasons on it? (If so, can i have a copy?
).


As mentioned in the video they have been investigating this for a long time, and the same complaints and reports and same names have come up, this is how they identified the abusers, how did they identify them a Masons? It would be quite easy, in such a very small and close nit place such as north wales people know more about each other, and parking near to the local lodge on a meeting night and observing members who entered the masonic hall would be very easy to do



posted on Nov, 13 2012 @ 06:29 AM
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reply to post by Flavian
 


By paying the £1.50 membership fee, you can access such a list here...

www.rebeccatelevision.com...



posted on Nov, 13 2012 @ 06:49 AM
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Originally posted by lifttheveil
To be honest AugustusMasonicus I would say the conduct of Masons in this thread has been, shall we say, less than an even temperment?


I am not here to answer for other posters, if you have an issue with them or their posts you should address your points to them. I am not capable of providing answers for anyone except myself.


I understand that your duty as Masons is to protect the craft and your brothers but do you have to be so aggressive and rude while you do it?


So my correcting you on your assumptions about joining and Trout's about the structure are 'protection'? Really? Maybe what was said was inaccurate and I happened to explain how things actually function.



posted on Nov, 13 2012 @ 07:03 AM
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Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
And how is MI6 structured? Please enlighten me as to the dissimilarities of said structures.


Well, by your own admission it is not a direct democracy and therefore cannot be structured the same as Masonry as you so erroneously posited. See how easy that was when you actually use logic?


I made no claims beyond that.


You entire second paragraph were your claims.


I then went onto say that the structure of Freemasonry is tried and tested. In a seperate and new paragraph. Do you disagree, that the structure of Freemasonry is tried and tested? Do you disagree that as a means of administrating disparate groups over a wide geographical area it is has been successful?


Your analogy was in relation to MI6, it is not tired and tested in that regards and by your own admission MI6 is very dissimilar to Masonry.


The point I was trying to make is that any group can emulate such a structure, or even claim to be freemasons, but unless they follow the same ordnance or are verified or given authority by those overseering what is or is not legitimate practice, they are not freemasons. Do you disagree with that?


I do very much agree with that considering they are neither:



    Masonic

    Structured is a Masonic manner





So...with that in mind, the structure of Freemasonry...

...

We can see here clearly that even amongst differing groups of Freemasons the way in which appointments and terms are administered differs. The means of administration changes while the structure remains consistent. Structure and administration not being entirely the same thing.


Continental Masonry has always, as you know, been vastly different from both English and American Masonry.


I’m stating the obvious here, but given your obtuse inability or unwillingness to understand the point being made I feel that it is necessary, but an intelligence service is tasked with obtaining intelligence, I assume that that is not the objective of freemasonry, would that be correct?


In so much as determining during a candidate's investigation whether they are a convicted criminal or not.


So we can perhaps assume that what those men were implying by ‘Let’s start a new form of Freemasonry’, was that they intended to base it on the means of swearing an oath of allegiance and using a pyramidical structure of hierarchy based on a need to know basis of that gathered intelligence.


The structure of Masonry is not 'pyramidical' in the sense you are trying to convey. The local (Worshipful Masters) and Grand Lodge (Grand Master) positions of authority change every year. Where is the heirarchial transfer of the mission statement of the preceding leaders? Each one of those persons is elected by the body the represent which means that the membership is actually the ones in charge as they select the leader, and his program, that they wish to abide by for the ensuing year.


That is the person at the bottom does not have direct contact to the person at the top and must go through intermediaries in order to report on the intelligence that they gather.


Every Master Mason in my lodge has the Master's phone number and every Master Mason in my jurisdiction has the Grand Master's phone number and home address. Contact is casual and based on whether or not the respective Mason feels the need to speak directly with the Master of the Lodge or the Grand Master of New Jersey.


I thought that that would constitute common sense and felt no need to elucidate, I obviously should not have made the assumption that all members here possessed such common sense and intelligence to make that simple leap. I apologise for that.


And I thought everyone here possesed the intellect to discern between an intelligence orginization and a fraternal group that votes its leadership on a yearly basis in a direct fashion.


Clearly you don’t get out much, because I call a spade a spade, and use vulgar terms quite often for emphasis, not because I have lost my temper.


Of course. And drunken slobs only drink because they like the taste.



posted on Nov, 13 2012 @ 07:06 AM
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Originally posted by lifttheveil
No I certainly don't want to start a thread on any of you, like you said, we are all just some faceless internet dwellers, what I want is to look at and investigate what I posted in the OP without the usual band of brothers from Masonry ganging up as always to derail the thread with how wonderful thei secret order of masonry is.

All I did in my last post was answer an accusation that was made by your brother of the cloth that non masons in this thread were not showing an even temperment, I just wanted to show that the conduct and attitude of masons, including yours, has not been of even or good temperment either. When investigating masonry and reading or posting in masonic threads it does make the normal joe bloggs off the street feel a little strangled and tight for air with the massive masonic presence on here that always join together to jump in any thread about masonry and defend it regardless of what is said, I find the massive masonic membership on this conspiracy site both interesting and a little unsettling, and unbalancing to the threads. Non ATS members don't see avatars and user details, so what they think they are reading is a balanced thread about masonry is actually the same old members of the craft grouping together in military fashion to attack anyone that questions their secretive sect. This also is disturbing.


I can appreciate that. Just so you understand, I like the SS forum. It's where I hang out. It's what made me become a mason in the first place. (at least one deciding factor) And since I am a mason, I do tend to enjoy commenting on threads about masonry. Much like of you were a woodworker, you might enjoy threads about building tables and chairs.

We find ourselves defending masonry against lots of crazy allegations from time to time, and most of them are harmless enough. I mean, it doesn't take a lot of intelligence to see that we don't sacrifice virgins, or eat babies.

Being a mason is more than just a title or a bumper sticker. You have to be a good morale person to even become a mason. Then you hold yourself to a higher standard than you used to and you try daily to be a better man than you were yesterday. It's a way of life and in my opinion a very good one. Committing crimes of any nature is against what we are and what we teach, but to harm a child is sickening and disgusting. Being accused of that crime will bring out the badger in me. I would give my life for a child and I think most of my brethren would as well. We help children because they are the foundation of tomorrow. Make them strong, and our world has a chance.

So for a mason to hurt a child is directly against what we are. As has been said many times, not all masons are perfect. I am sure there are some bad ones out there. We try to keep that from happening, but no system is perfect. If we find someone tarnishing our name we would much rather have them removed, than cover up for them and risk a big incident. That is why we have a system of jurisprudence to try, and expel guilty members.

I apologize if I offended you or anyone else. (unless you deserved it. Then I evoke the "he needed killin" defense Texas has)



posted on Nov, 13 2012 @ 07:09 AM
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Originally posted by Flavian
reply to post by lifttheveil
 


I have a question about this and i will apologise in advance if it has already been asked. I am making no comment either way about these claims apart from "how does the victim know they are nearly all Freemasons?"

Seriously, how can they possibly know this? Do they have access to a list with all the UK Freemasons on it? (If so, can i have a copy?
).


I have thought the same thing too, but could it not be that they had some form of insignia or identifying symbols? We also have to consider that Keith Gregory was part of a support group for the victims, so they would have made a lot of connection during those discussions too.

After thinking about this myself, it could just be that they are seeing an organized group of men who are covering up for each other, and that would automatically lead some to think of the Freemasons.

Numerous people have seen the names of the accused, named by those who are alive, and named by victims. Without seeing the list, it could be that all are openly members of a masonic lodge.

I would need to see more evidence to believe that, but I can certainly see how they might have come to that statement.

As for Freemasonry itself, in another thread someone was defending it, suggesting there was no link. Clearly the victims would beg to differ on that. And I gave the answer that if you belong to a secret group of men, where one of the main intentions is to keep secrets from the outside world and protect each other in all walks of life, what do you damned expect?

These groups SHOULD be investigated. They are suspicious, they bring attention to themselves with secrecy. If they have nothing to hide, why all the secrecy to begin with? This is the problem with these secret societies, it's one thing to have freedom and privacy to belong to such groups, but when members are implicated or accused of something, that secrecy is no longer relevant. They need to be one of the first avenues of investigation.



posted on Nov, 13 2012 @ 07:16 AM
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reply to post by detachedindividual
 


Finding masonic membership is tricky unless the individual openly lists their affiliation. Famous people are usually listed on masonic sites as we like to flaunt our celebrities a bit. (any group would )

As a mason, I try to identify who in the public eye is a mason as they are watched very closely by all and the reputation of my fraternity rides on their actions.

I know Tony Blair is not a mason, as that has been asked and investigated many times. I looked into Saville right after this came out and he was accused as being a brother. he is part of a Catholic order, and by that alone could not be a mason. (not that we care, but his church would kick him out)

As for the rest of the list, I have seen several variations and have not been able to find confirmation of membership, or an official list. I will not deny any or all are members, but I think at the very least we should find out before we issue a kill order on all masons.



posted on Nov, 13 2012 @ 09:06 AM
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Originally posted by network dudeI apologize if I offended you or anyone else. (unless you deserved it. Then I evoke the "he needed killin" defense Texas has)

No hard feelings ND, we've both been a bit hostile to each other on this thread but good to see that regardless of differences we can still get on and put it behind us


To be perfectly honest, although I used the "Nearly everyone on UK paedophile ring list is a Freemason says abuse victim" title as it was the title of the video, I would much prefer it was something along the lines of "Nearly everyone on UK paedophile ring list is a high ranking politician" as to be honest, I don't doubt there are a few Masons involved but I don't see it as a Masonic Conspiracy more a Government/Number 10 Conspiracy and my anger is not at all aimed at any Masons but very strongly at The UK Government, Masonry comes into it because I understand a lot of lords and MP's are Masons and I think at the top it's not the beautiful thing many apprentices think it is.

But no, if I was suddenly made a chief inspector (no I'm not a copper and have no wish to be) and was charged with this investigation, then I would not be heading to straight Masonic Lodges, I'd be heading to Parlimant and reopening the previous investigations that were blocked by Tony Blair. It's not secret faceless masons that are the center of this scandal for me, but it's just the opposite, very public and well known figures



posted on Nov, 13 2012 @ 09:14 AM
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Originally posted by lifttheveil
But no, if I was suddenly made a chief inspector (no I'm not a copper and have no wish to be) and was charged with this investigation, then I would not be heading to straight Masonic Lodges, I'd be heading to Parlimant and reopening the previous investigations that were blocked by Tony Blair. It's not secret faceless masons that are the center of this scandal for me, but it's just the opposite, very public and well known figures



And you would have the same problem that police chiefs and "Decent" politicians and other celebs have had in the past.... you would be threatened and leant on and blocked at every turn.
Those at the top would close ranks and you would essentially be told to drop it and stop making a fuss.

Even if you were allowed to get to court, the Judge would not decide in your favour, there would be all kinds of things that you wouldn't be allowed to use as evidence or talk about and many things you discovered about the case would be locked away in secret for 100 years due to national security (true story)

Also Press would not report on any of it and diversionary tactics would be used to keep people distracted and keep them from looking in the right places and asking the right questions

Its the same pattern over and over.

*sigh*

edit on 13/11/12 by blupblup because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 13 2012 @ 09:50 AM
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Originally posted by blupblup
And you would have the same problem that police chiefs and "Decent" politicians and other celebs have had in the past.... you would be threatened and leant on and blocked at every turn.
Those at the top would close ranks and you would essentially be told to drop it and stop making a fuss.

Even if you were allowed to get to court, the Judge would not decide in your favour, there would be all kinds of things that you wouldn't be allowed to use as evidence or talk about and many things you discovered about the case would be locked away in secret for 100 years due to national security (true story)

Also Press would not report on any of it and diversionary tactics would be used to keep people distracted and keep them from looking in the right places and asking the right questions

Its the same pattern over and over.

*sigh*

Yeah I agree, it's sickening to watch it all unfolding that way again, the following article sums it up pretty well IMO...




A disturbing shift has occurred over the weekend in Britain. A very noticeable pressure has been building against Britain’s elite establishment composed of politicians, highly paid media executives and celebrities, over the ugly issue of pedophilia and child abuse – a crime which has, for generations, been allowed to be carried out in secret. Since Friday’s assessment of David Cameron’s most embarrassing TV challenge by seemingly harmless personality Philip Schofield, the whole national conversation is now being engineered by Downing Street and top media executives, to rotate away from Jimmy Savile and MP Tom Watson’s call for a rooting out of organized pedophilia in government – and over to protecting the allegedly fragile reputations of hereditary elites like Lord McAlpine, who according to major newspaper editors and TV pundits, have suddenly become victims of a ‘witch-hunt’ for paedophiles.


21stcenturywire.com... fidence/
edit on 13-11-2012 by lifttheveil because: Fixed link
edit on 13-11-2012 by lifttheveil because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 13 2012 @ 09:52 AM
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Originally posted by lifttheveil
The Masonic moderator then goes on to say we are criminals and commiting a criminal offence just by discussing it

Isn't slander a crime?

reply to post by lifttheveil
 

And yet, more and more are condemning Freemasonry on accusations alone, not adjudication. An accusation is not proof of guilt.



posted on Nov, 13 2012 @ 10:19 AM
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Originally posted by KSigMason

Originally posted by lifttheveil
The Masonic moderator then goes on to say we are criminals and commiting a criminal offence just by discussing it

Isn't slander a crime?

reply to post by lifttheveil
 

And yet, more and more are condemning Freemasonry on accusations alone, not adjudication. An accusation is not proof of guilt.

If your classing his comments as Slander then yes, but I think you would be well advised to read over the comment in question and decide if that is a criminal case of slander. Here it is...



Not too surprising from a group that disdains women and will not let them join in their reindeer games. Now we know why. Women don't always sit still for pedophilia. Men have to watch their backs and will shut up about it as we have seen over and over again. It is all fun and games until some one gets hurt. I can't understand why the Church - as culpable as it seems to be - still calls any shots at all. And that group of Catholic Bishops parading around the country like they are the Untouchables- should all be defrocked if you ask me.


What I see is a reply to a post and the posters own opinions.

Slander ....a malicious, false, and defamatory statement or report: a slander against his good name.

Since he didn't mention anyone in particular or anyones name I think that the slander tag you men of the craft are throwing around in this thread is in fact baseless, which is a good thing, or else me you and almost everyone else around here faces criminal proceedings.



Not too surprising from a group that disdains women and will not let them join in their reindeer games

Now, that 'opinion' is one I'm tempted to share, I mean lets face it, it's not called an old boys club for nothing.






Women don't always sit still for pedophilia

I think he is quite spot on with that opinion actually, men cover abuse up the most because men are involved in abuse more than women and historical statistics and news reports back this up





I can't understand why the Church - as culpable as it seems to be - still calls any shots at all. And that group of Catholic Bishops parading around the country like they are the Untouchables- should all be defrocked if you ask me

Well, again I agree with this sentiment, I don't have to go into all the many abuse scandals and cover ups involving the church as we all know about them
edit on 13-11-2012 by lifttheveil because: Grammar



posted on Nov, 13 2012 @ 10:22 AM
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Originally posted by KSigMason
Isn't slander a crime?



Where is the slander in this thread?

I haven't seen any?

Have names been mentioned and has anyone in the thread alleged that anyone has done something?


If they have, I've missed it.



posted on Nov, 13 2012 @ 11:36 AM
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Originally posted by blupblup
Where is the slander in this thread?

I haven't seen any?

Have names been mentioned and has anyone in the thread alleged that anyone has done something?


If they have, I've missed it.
Here and here.



posted on Nov, 13 2012 @ 11:57 AM
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Originally posted by KSigMason

reply to post by eastendkid
 

The maker of the video also seems just obsessed with sex. So many who try to label Freemasonry as such do so out of their own interpretation and often their own hidden feelings. It's called projection.

The end of the third video shows the illogical though process of many anti-Masons. Just because our aprons go over our front and sit in front of our crotch doesn't mean we're into sexual magick or anything of that nature. In fact, just that is what your mind goes to when you see that doesn't mean anything...again projection. Why is it so many anti-Masons have sex on the brain?


Freemasonrys is occult..

I think somebody needs to go back to school and re-learn how to write. Plus, how are we "occult" since that means "hidden" and we're pretty well in the open.


hiding secret Baal-sex-worship and it's relationship to ritual abuse. Both are occult / demonic in nature.

We don't deal with either Baal nor sex worship.




Well I will invite everyone to look at the "SHAFT OF BAAL" phallus obelisks and "CONCEALED SEX WORSHIP" briefly shown from 7:19 minutes ... and let them decide for themselves




You know that odd bit of Nimrod / Osiris etc. that couldn't be found to be reconstituted ??

Whilst I go and dig out the direct quotes of Manly P Hall and others explaining the symbols clearly, so everyone may judge.


The "Dot and Circle" btw according to Manly.P Hall, one of Masonrys greatest Philosophers, is an ancient sex symbol. As is the "Px" symbol.

Strange how these symbols, along with a plathera of other Masonic ones seem to have found there way into the design of many a Catholic Cathedral isn't it. As with ritual abuse sadly.

You will notice from the brief images that the "SUN WHEEL" sun worship symbol found in St.Peters Square is also conveniently, and architecturally also.. a "Dot and Circle" etc..



posted on Nov, 13 2012 @ 12:11 PM
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reply to post by eastendkid
 


Ah yes, the old, if X symbol = sex, then X symbol is evil.

Do you know the history of the Nazi Swastica?

Symbols have many meanings to many different groups. It's almost impossible to attribute any meaning to a single symbol and leave out the context.

Believe what you want, but Baal, and falaces have no place in masonry. At least not the kind I know if.

But it does make for interesting dinner conversation.



posted on Nov, 13 2012 @ 12:14 PM
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Originally posted by eastendkid
Whilst I go and dig out the direct quotes of Manly P Hall and others explaining the symbols clearly, so everyone may judge.


The "Dot and Circle" btw according to Manly.P Hall, one of Masonrys greatest Philosophers…
You realize, of course, that Hall didn't even join a Masonic lodge until more than 30 years after he published his books? It's rather disingenuous of you to put him up as the epitome of Masonic scholarship when he wasn't even a member when he wrote his books.





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