More Tibetans Self-Immolate As China's Party Congress Opens

Originally posted by seen2much
And the point of the immolations is??? Tibet is not worth a confrontation with China. It seems the "holy" buddhist are just as shovenistic to other groups in the area. China must be confronted about human rights as a whole and not because a "buddhist" fetish some people have in the west.

Interesting approach.

1) What is the point of the immolation.
2) Tibet is not worth a confrontation with China.
3) Buddhists are not beyond reproach or chauvinism?
4) We should only discuss China in human rights terms generally and not focus on "Buddhists" out of a fixation.


Perhaps one of the most "packed" responses thus far.

Answers you will likely not accept:

1) The point is to get the attention of the world. It works. Why this is necessary is because of the litany presented by those who think in terms of "it's no big deal" or "none of our affair" - you see parts of that litany repeated even in your response. IT appears easier for some to deny it, excuse it, and or reject any responsibility... because we have so many problems to deal with in these days.... so let them be oppressed... and don't bother looking into it or discussing it... lest we find that not confronting the matter is a moral failing. "Best to remain ignorant" by inflating distractions and misunderstandings; or simply attacking the messengers.

2) No one is discussing a confrontation with China. In fact, why any dialogue on this subject would gravitate toward "confrontation" is entirely up to China not us. China has made many repeated demands that we "mind our own business" as this situation decays... and they have been very successful... after all.. the only way we discuss this is if someone sets themselves alight...

3) No one is beyond criticism in the way that individuals within their communities behave towards one another. I wonder if that fact negates "caring" about other people? But then, caring about their continued plight doesn't serve any purpose some define as useful. Sadly, this willful ignorance is a common deficiency in the world.

4) Addressing China's social shortcomings in terms that can dilute the specifics is something politicians and diplomats do... and it is why almost no progress is ever dependent on what we know - but what is 'expedient' to those in governance. Eventually China's people will overcome the roadblock... maybe someday we will too... May we never have to answer for those who suffer while we stand by in willful impotence.

Does it really trouble you that someone might express empathy or sympathy for those who seem to want their country back? ... I can't imagine why?

Your points are worth considering but:

1)The immolations are not having their desired effect rousing anything but casual curiosity as they have become commonplace. The stall-owner in Tunisia's death is an exception but after others in the Middle East copied it no longer moved anyone. If he wanted to win "dharma" points so be it and he can now enter nothingness/Nirvana.
2)It will not profit the world to escalate tensions over Tibet. The Dalai Lama is relaxing comfortably (He won't set himself on fire anytime soon) and good for him. He can pass on "Karma" points while laxing in the West. More people in the West are worried about human rights over all of China and not just Tibet. A better strategy would be to appeal slowly to the Chinese by way of cultural influence from the West which is slowly happening. In the end, the US should not directly involve itself unless it is absolutely necessary. Is it apathy? Not really, it is called being strategically realistic and thinking about our own citizens first.
3)Were Tibet free I doubt the "peace-loving" monks would be so nice to the other groups living their anymore than their fellow "peace-loving" monks in Burma and lsewhere are towards Christians and Muslims. I doubt they would not try to impose their will on other cultures as they did when they rioted a while back. I imagine that ethnic cleansing would take place.

I don't want to sound mean but the Chinese take this issue personally and have a different take on the matter. I personally see no point in a priest-king or communist system. One is an archaic oddity that is out of place in a modern secular society while the other has proven itself anti-humanistic (which applies to the "priest-king" as well.

Buddism in its original form was and NEVER is a religion. It is only a way of life to achieve peace and serenity while living in our troubled Karmic world to attain englightenment or nirvana as they call it.

The teachings DO NOT allow them to hurt or harm another life, including even ants.

Thus they would rather self immolate themselves when the karmic suffering from this world is too much to bear, NOT for themselves, but for the sake of ALL living things, in Tibet.

May more understand why they did that and not follow the brutal commies to gladly supply the matches and kerosene.

The CCP govt marched into Tibet in the 1950s on a conquest rampage, a thing BANNED by UN after the horrific 2 wars mankind went through, and robbed Tibet because of its docility, wealth and resources. Who said the CCP govt were a 'peaceful' nation and had never went on territorial conquests?

Tibets had suffered for decades under the brutal commie rule, even today. Land locked and hidden away, with bans to foreigners, very much atrocities went unreported. As in Syria and Rwanda, the world did nothing, mocking and dishonoring the very blood shed by our forefathers who sacrificed their lives to ensure we ALL - mankind will live free, something denied to Tibet, dead rwandans, syrians, bosnians, etc.

DO NOT, do not, presume that the 18th commie party congress is peaceful or everything under control, or that Xi Jinpin will be the president. The Maoists had not given up power.

While the military and province chiefs may swear allegience to Xi, their next command may not do so. Communism is an idealogy and as such, fundamentalists exists. They saw how capitalistic reforms had made corruption rampant, and will blame those leaders whom pushed for reforms that are different from fundamental commie idealogy.

The fundamentalists do not seek for riches. They don't need to. All they seek for is power and dominance over its citizens, a far more lucrative bargin and it ensures their priviledges for life, instead of only for decades and trying to solve the growing needs of the chinese People.

But the masses are largely uneducated, and easily swayed by fundamentalist commie devil Mao talk and slogans, such as happened in Chonging under Bo Xilai. They will be used by the Maoists to take over the govt, if they do not get their way.

There is a tussle within the party congress going on right now. Still water runs deep. Best the world standby a crisis management team now to handle any fall-out from the war within factions in China today, as it will be messy and even frightening when SHTF, for economies are all interlinked.

Buddhism was not a religion in the beginning? True, that is a historical fact but Tibetan Buddhism (an off-shoot of an off-shoot) is one.

I hate communism, especially Mao and Stalinist centered ones and I hope one day I wake up and find that China and North Korea are free. Yet, let us be REALISTIC about this. The Chinese don't have 5 year plans, they have 25-50 year plans (I wish we had such forward thinking in the US). The West should adopt a slow, incremental infiltration of China. Hopefully within twenty years China will become a democracy and Tibet and Xinxang can go their seperate ways. If not, the west should stifle encroachments around the world while infiltrating China in a by-manner. Macarthur was right but in 2012 it is now too damn late. A slow campaign of softening the regime while allowing the cracks to swell on their own is a good strategy. If SHTF happens that would be terrible for the whole world that is why I say Tibet is not worth it. Am I being utilitarian? Maybe. I wish I could sing "Imagine" and that w all would be culturally aware but not nationalistic, spiritual but not religious; but I would be pissing in the wind wouldn't I??

I respect Buddhist precepts very much. However, I think little of "priest-kings" or Buddhists who in the end are no better than their Muslim, Christian, Hindu, and Jewish extremist counterparts.

Some say better had one never been born and you Buddhists say better if no-one is born again. Is there an essential difference?

Originally posted by Amanda5
To be in such deep emotional turmoil about your belief system that you would set yourself on fire - is not something I can imagine. To believe that the act would bring people to learn about your cause and the cause of your pain is a deep level of belief.

The Tibetans deserve to live in their own country with their own spiritual leader - The Dali Lama. We have to ask ourselves what type of world do we live in when one country just marches in and takes over another country?? A psychopathic led country - no different to the bullies in the schoolyard - just all grown up with armies at their disposal.

I feel sad that the Monks believed they had no choice but to immolate. I feel sad that their beloved Spiritual leader cannot go home to his people. I feel sad that we as a global community cannot right the wrongs of invaded Tibet. This story is sad for many reasons - not just the immolation of a peaceful human being.

Much Peace...to the Monks who self sacrificed - please guide us in Spirit...

And how was life under the lama rule before china? The tibetan
people were slaves. The tibetan people were dying of starvation.
The tibetin people were tortured in horrible ways. And what about
the lama and his cronies? They lived like kings in their big houses.

I really wish people would not fall for the western propaganda that
tibet was heaven on earth before chinese rule. It was a horrible, disgusting
place!

Be warned, bad language.

reply to post by Expat888


it is constructive criticism. The Chinese are looking more and more like they want to take over the world employing the USA´s worst tactics, those you vehemently oppose, yet you give China a free pass?

Seems like a double standard don't you think. A little hypocritical of you.

You should condemn Chinas abuses without bias like the US´s.

I don't see you speaking against Chinese brutalities in their prisons, their invasions of other people´s land, their censorship of entire subjects, the internet, the oppression the average Chinese worker faces, the poverty it keeps its people in to give fortunes to their elite, how they have subdued their own population to eliminate their local customs that violate the grand parties idea of what China should be like,.... ECT...

will you ever start a thread or participate in one condemning the Chinese government for its actions, or are just content in attacking the US?

I guess you are too biased and unbalanced to weigh your opinion as valid and true to the noble idealism you say you defend.

reply to post by manykapao


China is not perfect, far from it. But china is imoroving all
the time, which is a good thing, considering what they were
like 30 years ago. I dont think china has any interest in taking
over the world, far from it.

Like i said, china are improving. They still have a long way to go,
but its a huge start.

reply to post by Jay-morris


I don't know how you measure improvement, but nothing I read and have seen from them shows that the peoples party even wants to change. There is no oversight, no public scrutiny, no international awareness of what goes on in their borders, nothing.

They still abuse Tibetans, their millionaire's still get wealthier, in fact have increased in number and wealth yet the average person still lives in poverty. Workers rights are non existant, and they are supposedly Communist. Go figure. Apple plants that make IPhones and Ipads made their workers sign contracts this year promising NOT to commit suicide rather than address the slave conditions they are working in to keep production up.

I see things getting worse as the Government only gets angry over there and tries to hide its way of doing business instead of improving it. If anything when an issue goes public some one goes to a horrible prison where he has to deal with torture, beatings and possible murder for organ harvesting for the black market.

Looks damn horrible to me.

Originally posted by manykapao
reply to post by Jay-morris

 

I don't know how you measure improvement, but nothing I read and have seen from them shows that the peoples party even wants to change. There is no oversight, no public scrutiny, no international awareness of what goes on in their borders, nothing.

They still abuse Tibetans, their millionaire's still get wealthier, in fact have increased in number and wealth yet the average person still lives in poverty. Workers rights are non existant, and they are supposedly Communist. Go figure. Apple plants that make IPhones and Ipads made their workers sign contracts this year promising NOT to commit suicide rather than address the slave conditions they are working in to keep production up.

I see things getting worse as the Government only gets angry over there and tries to hide its way of doing business instead of improving it. If anything when an issue goes public some one goes to a horrible prison where he has to deal with torture, beatings and possible murder for organ harvesting for the black market.

Looks damn horrible to me.

edit on 10-11-2012 by manykapao because: (no reason given)

You are joking, right? China has improved a hell of alot in the last
thirty years, and hopefully will keep on improving.

Have you been to china? I lived in china,also travelled china. I have seen
the good and the bad. One thing i will say. I felt more safein china than i do
in the uk. I love china, its people, culture, and history.

Here is a good link that talks about how china has improved
link

china is not perfect, but what country is?

reply to post by manykapao

They still abuse Tibetans

China has not been perfect in tibet, no one can deny that.
But where was the western media when during the riots a few
years back, tibetan rioters were beating, killing chinese people
living there? They mentioned the chinese polixe beatiibg tibetans,
but not talking about the tibetan violence.

It drives me made when people hump on the lama and free tibet
band wagon, when clearly they know nothing about tibet before
chinese rule, and look at the lama as a kind peacful person, and
tibet was heaven on earth before chinese rule. Both BS western
media propaganda!

Tibet is a damn site bettrr place now than it was under lama rule.

reply to post by Jay-morris


Every country has their history and there is always some aspect that is shameful. One country marching in with their armies and taking over - just like bullies who have graduated from school and now have government and armies to do their bidding - is not right.

While you cite the history of Tibet and the Tibetan people as woeful - it does not make the situation better by ousting their Spiritual leader and massacring the people. I highly recommend to you - the book about the Tibetan Nun who survived hardship, imprisonment and torture at the hands of the Chinese. I will look up the title - I recall she escaped and the only thing that kept her going was that she would get to her Spiritual Mentor the Dali Lama. When she finally reached him - he sat with her for hours and cried with her as she told her story. It is a powerful story told by an incredible Tibet woman.

Much Peace...

reply to post by Jay-morris


Please consider reading the book titled Sorrow Mountain. It is the story of Ani Pachen - Ani is the word that denotes a Tibet Nun and her name means - Nun of Great Courage.

In 1959 she was incarcerated by the Chinese who among other things, hung her by her wrists for a week, locked her in leg irons for a year and put her in solitary confinement for nine months with no light. This woman deserves our respect for surviving.She was released from Chinese captivity in 1981 - they stole her life.

So please tell me again how life got better for the Tibetan people once the Chinese invaded like psychopathic bullies. Ani Pachen was a woman, a nun and defender of her people and history - what are you defending - the psychopathic Chinese or the Tibetans who just wanted to live their own history?

Much Peace...

Originally posted by Amanda5
reply to post by Jay-morris

 

Every country has their history and there is always some aspect that is shameful. One country marching in with their armies and taking over - just like bullies who have graduated from school and now have government and armies to do their bidding - is not right.

While you cite the history of Tibet and the Tibetan people as woeful - it does not make the situation better by ousting their Spiritual leader and massacring the people. I highly recommend to you - the book about the Tibetan Nun who survived hardship, imprisonment and torture at the hands of the Chinese. I will look up the title - I recall she escaped and the only thing that kept her going was that she would get to her Spiritual Mentor the Dali Lama. When she finally reached him - he sat with her for hours and cried with her as she told her story. It is a powerful story told by an incredible Tibet woman.

Much Peace...

Did you read what i wrote. You are sticking up for a man that
lived like a king, and had slaves. You are sticking up for a man
whos people were starved, tourtured, murdered and slaves, with
a small percent living in huge houses. You thibk this is what buddism
is all about.

It makes me sick that people get brainwashed by western media, it
really does. Tibet is a better place now, than it was before china went
in there. Tibet was an evil hell hole ruled by people using their religon
to do horrible and disgusting things. You think this is what buddism is
about? Starving, enslaving, torturing, and murdering people?

The lama is a fraud who spends his time in five star hotels, and
getting as many dumb celebs to back him since his cia payrole
stopped.

You can believe what you want to believe. You can turn a blind
eye to the terrible things that happened in tibet under lama rule.
You can pretend and jump on the lama band wagon that he is this
peacful, spiritual man. But i wont!

reply to post by Maxmars


Very Sad.

Destroying yourself in this way, especially in protest of China and its policies, is the ultimate self sacrifice.

S&F for letting ATS know about this.

Originally posted by Amanda5
reply to post by Jay-morris

 

Please consider reading the book titled Sorrow Mountain. It is the story of Ani Pachen - Ani is the word that denotes a Tibet Nun and her name means - Nun of Great Courage.

In 1959 she was incarcerated by the Chinese who among other things, hung her by her wrists for a week, locked her in leg irons for a year and put her in solitary confinement for nine months with no light. This woman deserves our respect for surviving.She was released from Chinese captivity in 1981 - they stole her life.

So please tell me again how life got better for the Tibetan people once the Chinese invaded like psychopathic bullies. Ani Pachen was a woman, a nun and defender of her people and history - what are you defending - the psychopathic Chinese or the Tibetans who just wanted to live their own history?

Much Peace...

why not also mention the disgusting things my country
done to the irish people. Why not mention the disgusting
things that happened to the native indians. Why not mention
the disgusting things western countries done to the chinese
when they invaded. I could go on and on and on!

But the tibet movement is soooo cool to be a part of at the moment.
And its so cool to suck up to the lama and shout "free tibet!"

The tibetans had no life before chinese rule. Unless you class
being starved, tortured, murdered and being slaves as having a
life!

reply to post by Jay-morris


The last few lines of your post reflect what Ani Pachen describes in her story. Please read it if you have the opportunity.

My understanding is that we are engaged in the discussion of the Tibetan Monks who immolated recently. As for your comment on other countries - I did respond to that in my earlier reply to you. I am aware there are atrocities in every history of every country but we are here to discuss and pay our respects to the Tibetan people.

Much Peace...

Originally posted by Amanda5
reply to post by Jay-morris

 

The last few lines of your post reflect what Ani Pachen describes in her story. Please read it if you have the opportunity.

My understanding is that we are engaged in the discussion of the Tibetan Monks who immolated recently. As for your comment on other countries - I did respond to that in my earlier reply to you. I am aware there are atrocities in every history of every country but we are here to discuss and pay our respects to the Tibetan people.

Much Peace...

Yes, and i know its a terrible thing. Ant type of violence is a
terrible thing. I responded to you because of the way you
spoke about the lama, as some sort of peacful spiritual person,
which he is not in my opinion, and the fact that tibet should
be giving back to the leader, and for the lama to come home.

This annoyed me because the lama and his cronies were the
main reason tibet was such a horrible place, and you want them
back there, after all the disgusting things they done in the name
of so called buddism.

Im sorry, but these monsters dont reprasent true buddism, and the
people who jump on the lama band wagon, dont reprasent true buddism
either.

China is changing. Huge numbers of Chinese are going all over the world and getting educated and bringing back their experiences to the mainland. It will take time but China needs gradual change into a democracy. I am against the government's abuse of human rights against ALL its people and against Tibetan-Buddhist ethnophobes attacking other Chinese minorities in Tibet (so much for the eight-fold path).

Tibet was better only in one respect really before the Chinese invasion: a priest-king ruled them and the monks held power. No cause for nostalghia there!

The 'west' and in particular Americans, need to stop romanticizing Buddhism and Tibet. The Chinese did the serfs a great favour by freeing them from the barbarism of life under the brutal theocracy, just as Vietnamese liberated Cambodia from the brutality of the Khmer Rouge.

This however, does not mean that I support and condone Chinese rule, just that the Tibetan Buddhists are not as innocent as many believe. The Dali Lama could have saved Tibet however, he chose exile.