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To the GOP: Is it about your Religion? Your Rights? Your Money?

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posted on Nov, 9 2012 @ 11:58 AM
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reply to post by NavyDoc
 


Socialism, wealth redistribution, social justice, and making things "fair" does exactly the opposite. It stifles innovation and discourages advancement and betterment. It is the path of stagnation and devolution. It destroys the individual and makes one a statistic rather than a person. It is dehumanizing.

No, Doc. It doesn't. It aims to enfranchise the less fortunate. Democrats/leftists count on the wealthy to do their part in contributing. They rely mostly on donations and foundations . Do you know the first thing about Grant Writing? About acquiring funds from places like the United Way, or the City Commission's tax-derived programs?

Have you ever been to a fundraiser for a charity? Do you know the rigor put in to courting those who have the wealth to contribute? Have you ever worked for a non-profit and had your program either usurped by corrupt "directors", or shut down due to lack of outcomes?

I have personal, first-hand experience both writing grants, being awarded them, developing programs with the funds based on the proposal I devised, and then got refunded by proving it WORKED (it was a substance abuse program for urban-core kids).

OUTCOMES are what those donating want to see, only they are not the same species as "shareholders" worried ONLY about their "bottom line." They are concerned that their philanthropy produces the program's (grantee's) stated objectives and aims toward helping the recipients of the services, which are developed to educate them and give them a chance to learn to help themselves. It may surprise you to know that most of the people receiving Temporary Assistance for Needy Families are so exhausted and hopeless and embarrassed that they can't see straight. For them to get a needed breather and a refresher course (or a first-time course) in budgeting, planning, and productive work skills is IMPERATIVE.

Helping them to even BEGIN to understand savings, budgeting, improved skills, job readiness, interviewing skills, and a worldview beyond the neighbor's .38-special who is trying to take their car is a HUGE JOB. And a necessary one.

There's a huge difference, and you really are out of your area of expertise painting "social workers" and "social justice activists" as dehumanizing the disenfranchised. It's exactly the opposite, and I'm sorry, but your understanding of it is mistaken.



edit on 9-11-2012 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)




posted on Nov, 9 2012 @ 12:00 PM
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reply to post by Jeremiah65
 


HOw is one dangerous and crazy for believing in individual liberty and freedom? If you wish to live off th grid, you should have every right to do so and be left alone by the state and free to make your own path. That's what I've been advocating and I actually thought we were on the same page, RE this.



posted on Nov, 9 2012 @ 12:07 PM
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Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by NavyDoc
 


Socialism, wealth redistribution, social justice, and making things "fair" does exactly the opposite. It stifles innovation and discourages advancement and betterment. It is the path of stagnation and devolution. It destroys the individual and makes one a statistic rather than a person. It is dehumanizing.

No, Doc. It doesn't. It aims to enfranchise the less fortunate. Democrats/leftists count on the wealthy to do their part in contributing. They rely mostly on donations and foundations . Do you know the first thing about Grant Writing? About acquiring funds from places like the United Way, or the City Commission's tax-derived programs?

Have you ever been to a fundraiser for a charity? Do you know the rigor put in to courting those who have the wealth to contribute? Have you ever worked for a non-profit and had your program either usurped by corrupt "directors", or shut down due to lack of outcomes?

OUTCOMES are what those donating want to see, only they are not worried about their "bottom line." They are concerned that their philanthropy produces the stated goals of the recipients, but helping them learn to help themselves.

There's a huge difference, and you really are out of your area of expertise painting "social workers" and "social justice activists" as dehumanizing the disenfranchised.



Actually, I am well within my area of expertise. I have written grants, worked with charities and non-profits, and have put my own time and money out there to raise funds, materiels, and volunteers to do good and charitable works. And all that has squat to do with my point. Private charity and fundrasing and getting people together to help people has nothing to do with a governmental system of wealth redistribution.

Yes to all the above and you miss the primary point that the above charities are voluntary, not part of government coercion. Nothing wrong with helping people. I do it myself all of the time. When the social justice activist moves from helping people out and encouraging charity to using the coercive force of government to force one, willing or not, to hand over their money or time or possesions, then they do create a dehumanizing and disenfranchising environment and destroyed innovation and ambition.



posted on Nov, 9 2012 @ 12:08 PM
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reply to post by Jeremiah65
 



You are free to believe whatever it is you believe...just do not be upset that we disagree with you.

Do not tell me how to live...we can fight till the stars burn out....you will not win.

Huh? I thought you were of similar beliefs to mine. Sorry if I offended you in any way.



posted on Nov, 9 2012 @ 12:14 PM
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reply to post by NavyDoc
 


Private charity and fundrasing and getting people together to help people has nothing to do with a governmental system of wealth redistribution.

Yes to all the above and you miss the primary point that the above charities are voluntary, not part of government coercion. Nothing wrong with helping people. I do it myself all of the time.

Okay, first of all I'm guessing your "all bold" is a response to mine which I pulled immediately to reformat. Check above for the unbolded (corrected) version.

Second of all, I retract my statement about your field of expertise.

That said, you DO know how it's supposed to work. The government, in my opinion, is TRYING TO DO THOSE THINGS that the non-profits are trying to do. Just because it's the government using taxes to fund it doesn't make it "dehumanizing."

My beef is with with those who refuse to acknowledge the needs of others and are draining the nation's wealth, funneling into their own pockets PERIOD. But I guess (once again) we don't understand each other correctly.
So be it.



posted on Nov, 9 2012 @ 12:21 PM
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Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by NavyDoc
 


Private charity and fundrasing and getting people together to help people has nothing to do with a governmental system of wealth redistribution.

Yes to all the above and you miss the primary point that the above charities are voluntary, not part of government coercion. Nothing wrong with helping people. I do it myself all of the time.

Okay, first of all I'm guessing your "all bold" is a response to mine which I pulled immediately to reformat. Check above for the unbolded (corrected) version.

Second of all, I retract my statement about your field of expertise.

That said, you DO know how it's supposed to work. The government, in my opinion, is TRYING TO DO THOSE THINGS that the non-profits are trying to do. Just because it's the government using taxes to fund it doesn't make it "dehumanizing."

My beef is with with those who refuse to acknowledge the needs of others and are draining the nation's wealth, funneling into their own pockets PERIOD. But I guess (once again) we don't understand each other correctly.
So be it.


I don't know why it came out in bold.

Of course it is dehumanizing. You have to dehumanize the individual that you must take from by force to give to another. The value of his time and his life is less than that of the person that you give his money to. We all know why politicans like entitlements: that is how they buy votes. That is dehumanizing in and of itself. "Vote for me and I'll extend your welfare benefits." What can be more humanizing than selling your vote for an EBT card and being expected to do this cycle after cycle because "that's the way it is." LBJ said, with his great society that he'd have "the n!&&@%s voting Democrat for the next 100 years." What can be more dehumanizing than that.

Socialism on a societal level is dehumanizing...it takes away one's initiative and one's drive. If you cannot enjoy the fruit of your hard work and innovation and imagination then no one will innovate. No one will imagine. The human animal wants to reach for the stars and works best when it can do so. In effort to make everyone "equal" socialism makes every one equally mediocre. This is not how civilization advances.



posted on Nov, 9 2012 @ 12:24 PM
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Bah...you just do not get it.

there are only so many routes a developing country can take...we do our best.

Most of you are so poisoned by your own selfishness you have no clue what community and selflessness means.

Screw you...itis the truth so f off and live with it you selfish bastard.

Now if you want to make a difference....stop hoarding and look to where you can drop some cash that nakes a difference....

Won't happen...most pukes are so lazy...they are just looking for a false place to drop cash,,,,

Go ahead false messiah....drop some money over here...we will show you how to use it.



posted on Nov, 9 2012 @ 12:40 PM
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Originally posted by wildtimes


You feel they are being eroded and eventually will be taken entirely away from you? That is not happening unless you are doing something wrong. I still have my rights - except if I want to build a bomb or fly a plane into a building or kill people in a theatre...
....the NDAA? Are you planning a government overthrow? Are you someone who should be worried about getting caught?


Spoken like you are someone who believes citizens should allow cops to search without cause if they "have nothing to hide"


Yes, layoffs are going to happen in the global corporations that are publicly held, because the RICH do not want to contribute. If Romney had said, "If you elect me I will empty my Cayman Island accounts and put them all PERSONALLY toward the national debt! AND, I will bring ALL OF THE OUTSOURCED jobs BACK HERE!" I'd have voted for him. But he didn't, and he never will.


Of course he wouldnt do that. Know why? Because it is an absolutely stupid and nonsensical idea.


They don't need 100-foot yachts.


Who are you to determine what other people need? You are in no place to do so, and government certainly doesnt have any Constitutional authorization to do that. Sound like you would rather live under a dictator who tells people what they need and dont need.


They need to be educated

They need the resources to farm and develop cottage industries, and the training to do so.


It isnt the function of government to provide those things. That is the job of the individual, and in the case of children, that obligation belongs to the parents.


Jobs, and a hand up. Not to be laid off because some shareholder gets his panties in a twist or some CEO who can't manage with less than a 7-figure "bonus" whines. You have enough extra money to live without $25K a year? HIRE SOMEONE who needs it!


Providing jobs is not a function of government. Corporations have one obligation and one only: to their shareholders. If someone has "extra money", they are free to do whatever the hell they want with it, and that includes wiping their butts or setting it on fire. It is theirs, and theirs alone, no matter how much you think someone else may "need" it.

.

Profit Profit Profit. What about the people being laid off so your precious "profits" are protected? HOW is that okay? You stamp your feet about people needing subsidies to survive, but you lay them off when your shareholders' "dividends" are likely to diminish?


Why dont you start a business and implement your idea of how it should be operated?

I'll save you the time and headaches. Your business would fail, because you, like millions of other college students who dream up all of these BS ideas about how businesses should operate, simply have no clue, no experience, and no idea how to run a business in this place called reality.




Guns? They're not going to take your guns!!!


Senators Feinstein, Schumer, and countless others would love to do exactly that.



You don't want to be "forced" to help (when that is what you should be doing if you can)....? (That was supposed to be handled by your parents before you reached age 5! It's called "sharing")


Again, who are you to dictate what others "should" be doing? Sharing is a choice, and certainly shouldnt be forced by government. That is called extortion.

Perhaps if you would stop telling others what they "should" be doing, you could pick up a few extra hours at work (if you actually have a job) and give a few bucks to someone you deem "poor" instead of expecting everyone else to do it.

edit on 9-11-2012 by TheAngryFarm because: (no reason given)

edit on 9-11-2012 by TheAngryFarm because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 9 2012 @ 12:50 PM
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reply to post by TheAngryFarm
 


Your business would fail, because you, like millions of other college students who dream up all of these BS ideas about how businesses should operate, simply have no clue, no experience, and no idea how to run a business in this place called reality.

Uh.....
you obviously didn't read my posts.
I'm turning 54 late next week, and I have one kid 23 who just received her Master's degree and one who is 21 and working.

But, whatever. The thread was good while it remained civil. Now it is going to burn down.
Oh well. Status quo.

BTW, it is the function of government to see to the education and prosperity of the people of the Union, which includes..... gha....never mind.

Ahem. Strange first post. Welcome to ATS, btw.

edit on 9-11-2012 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)

edit on 9-11-2012 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 9 2012 @ 12:56 PM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 


Your post was so far away from anything that is even remotely close to the ideals that this nation was founded upon, I actually registered to reply to it.

This might help you out:

U.S. Constitution (kindergarten level)

U.S. Constitution (complete version)


BTW, it is the function of government to see to the education and prosperity of the people of the Union, which includes


The federal government should have no role in the education of the citizenry. That is a function of state governments at best, moreso local governments.
edit on 9-11-2012 by TheAngryFarm because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 9 2012 @ 01:01 PM
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reply to post by NavyDoc
 


Socialism on a societal level is dehumanizing...it takes away one's initiative and one's drive. If you cannot enjoy the fruit of your hard work and innovation and imagination then no one will innovate. No one will imagine. The human animal wants to reach for the stars and works best when it can do so. In effort to make everyone "equal" socialism makes every one equally mediocre. This is not how civilization advances.

I see what your point is.
I disagree with it.

You don't have a firm grasp of "socialism". It doesn't suppress.
Sigh. Okay, I'm about drained for this week.


Again, thanks for engaging.



posted on Nov, 9 2012 @ 01:09 PM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 


Socialism is a system for the parasites of society.
Nothing more, nothing less.

As the previous poster said, it takes away all incentive to innovate, develop, and succeed.

Socialism is exactly like religion: Both should be made extinct, and its followers banished to some remote place where they can not infect anyone else with their "beliefs".



posted on Nov, 9 2012 @ 01:40 PM
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Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by NavyDoc
 


Socialism on a societal level is dehumanizing...it takes away one's initiative and one's drive. If you cannot enjoy the fruit of your hard work and innovation and imagination then no one will innovate. No one will imagine. The human animal wants to reach for the stars and works best when it can do so. In effort to make everyone "equal" socialism makes every one equally mediocre. This is not how civilization advances.

I see what your point is.
I disagree with it.

You don't have a firm grasp of "socialism". It doesn't suppress.
Sigh. Okay, I'm about drained for this week.


Again, thanks for engaging.


I have great grasp on socialism and Marxism. You just refuse to connect the historical dots. Come and spend some time with my mom, she fled Stalin and she would be able to tell you exactly where lack understanding.
edit on 9-11-2012 by NavyDoc because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 9 2012 @ 01:42 PM
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Originally posted by seabag

reply to post by seabag
 




CRONY CAPITALISM is what we have now, and both parties drink from the same cup. Are you pretending not to notice the big corporate money in BOTH parties??

The people who were to protect us from capitalism-gone-wild have instead been bought.....the safe guard has failed and we now have CRONY capitalism. Are you suggesting democrats are going to fix this???


I think this is possibly the most important point in the entire thread, neither of the two current ruling political parties will fix the problems the United States is facing because both parties and their members are profiting from our current demise!

I wish the general public could quit looking at either party as being the savior / devil and put their energy into creating a political system that was not motivated by greed, one that was for the betterment of the American people and the human race.

We the people...



posted on Nov, 9 2012 @ 06:49 PM
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reply to post by NavyDoc
 

Keep in mind, for a lot of people today marxism is nothing but another "ism" in a list of "ism's" in a text book. Socialism is what Northern Europe has and it works really well.


You know my posting better than to think that reflects my own thinking. lol.... It's the perspective of many around here though. I don't know that it could be different when one stops to think about it. How to know what many now were never there to see or know? I'm starting to wonder how large a gap that generation and life experience difference really has formed. Is it a valley with trails to cross or the Grand Canyon? The latter has started to cross my mind....



posted on Nov, 9 2012 @ 09:51 PM
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reply to post by NavyDoc
 


Bill Moyers is the guy interviewing the authors, a couple of economists. Both of them know a darn sight more than you and Ben Stein another economist agrees with them. You have no skills or knowledge in this area and not only shouldn't you be making suggestions or giving advice you shouldn't be pretending like you have any answers.

You have no answers, no knowledge of what has been done in the past or how we reached this sad state of affairs in the first place. This makes your worth and opinion here in this discussion fairly negligible.



posted on Nov, 10 2012 @ 09:41 AM
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post removed because the user has no concept of manners

Click here for more information.



posted on Nov, 10 2012 @ 09:45 AM
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May I post this here because you listed reason,

The reason I believe most of the left vote are social issues, and this video supports that

www.ijreview.com...


If you’re a young Obama voter and you happen to be reading this, then give yourself a pat on the back for having the intellectual curiosity to read something else besides what Jay-Z and your ex-hippie college professors think. You’re in the minority, and I applaud you for it.

And it’s not your fault that you don’t know anything about American politics. Your professors haven’t taught you anything but the left-wing pablum that has been spoonfed you since second grade.

You voted in 2012 for Obama. Here’s your participation trophy.

But it looks pretty bad when repeated “man on the street” interviews show that the most unblinking Obama voters know very little about the basic functioning of American government; whose platform was whose before the election; and the main issue facing citizens: the economy. To be fair, if you airdropped someone into the backwoods of America and asked your typical conservative recluse about basic civics, he would likely fare no better. Yet liberals are supposed to be intellectually superior to everyone else, due to their proper academic pedigree.

These videos are important not just because it shows some of the silliness pervading college campuses in the United States, but they provide some explanation why more than half can’t find a decent job after graduating from college (a vast corporate conspiracy, I’m sure). More than that, they show that most conservatives are approaching politics wrong in the new media era.
www.ijreview.com...


Consider this video, that shows Obama voters slamming Mitt Romney, while supporting his policy proposals; and hammering the policies of “Mitt Romney,” which actually belong to Obama:

edit on 093030p://bSaturday2012 by Stormdancer777 because: (no reason given)


Obama Supporters Actually Hate Obama's Policies
youtu.be...




youtu.be...



Stephen Colbert sent me an email, that's why I am voting.
edit on 093030p://bSaturday2012 by Stormdancer777 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 10 2012 @ 09:50 AM
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Originally posted by NavyDoc
POST REMOVED BY STAFF


You may know how to cut a business down to the lowest common denominator and get blood out of a stone or a worker - I'll give you that but if fighting for basic human rights and RELIEF FROM the burden of taxes placed on that workers income, makes me a socialist, great. Particularly tax burdens NOT placed on his bosses income - because the boss is in a HIGHER income bracket. That is just wrong and "but it stimulates hiring and jobs" is a dirty lie.

You clearly have not investigated the links I provided or you would not bother to hawk this ridiculous FOX NEWS agenda. Reaganomics killed 70% of the country and only made money for INVESTORS. That's only 30% of the entire economy and they bought a News Station and Hijacked a Political party with the money.

If exposing an Oligarchy you cannot see through the BS FOX News shovels on you - not my problem.

If fighting for EQUALITY in a system that is grossly unbalanced to favor the richest 1% of 1% makes me a socialist - I am proud to be called a socialist. Sure that will fare far better than an industrialist with St Peter at the gates.
edit on 10-11-2012 by newcovenant because: (no reason given)

edit on Sat Nov 10 2012 by DontTreadOnMe because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 10 2012 @ 09:54 AM
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reply to post by Stormdancer777
 


Of course you may post it, it's a reason!

I joined Colbert's SuperPAC immediately when he started it.
Anyone who is a follower of his knows that he's brilliant, and an exemplary role-model for thinking Americans.

By the way, my bumper sticker was "Stewart/Colbert 2012". If more people would pay attention to those two geniuses, we would be better off. And I'm NOT being facetious. They are the real face of the upcoming leadership of this country, and they provide VERY balanced criticism of EVERY idiot agenda in this world.

Go Colbert! Go Stewart! They are the lighthouse beacons for intelligent voters.

Thanks for posting, stormdancer.
star for you!



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