To the GOP: Is it about your Religion? Your Rights? Your Money?

reply to post by neo96


neo96? I don't dare go toe to toe with you, but what you just posted is exactly what is happening.

The government is laying taxes to support the welfare of the Union. . The wealthy don't want to pay those taxes.

reply to post by NavyDoc


Maybe....But what is Utopia? It is an idea. I completely understand that the will of man...the will of the many.... is a strong blockade. I also understand we have some damn clever people looking to circumvent those dogmatic ideals. We can rise to a different place. We can overcome damn near anything. We are the only species on this planet...ever...capable of influencing it's own evolution. Do I believe in theocratic dogma and evolution?...yes I do...man what kinda weirdo am I?

I believe we have it within us to overcome anything...and here is the big "IF"....if we learn to work together for the common good of our species. Predatory behavior is not going to advance our species...it is going to trap it and control it and eventually destroy it. We can be better than this...I am speaking purely now as a philosopher...I think we have the capacity for absolutely amazing things. I also do not disregard our nature to be extremely repugnant pricks...we can do that too.

I like to think that we are approaching a crossroads...we can continue to be a predatory species...or...we can take a turn and move toward advancement and growth...no...sorry...the two do not work together....no matter how much the cronies want to pretend they do.

The future holds lots of opportunities...but what is opportunity? Is it the opportunity to swell the wealth of you family? or is it the opportunity to further mankind?

Pretty tough questions isn't it? I like to think that rationality will prevail. The furthering of the species is far more important than shoring up your families wealth. I know...I am probably wrong...BUT...with the new changes we are seeing in the environmental world and the meteorological world...certain facts can no longer be ignored. Things are changing and denial is just a river in Egypt.

Best of luck folks...I am going to continue living my Libertarian/anarchist life and I hope my life does not hurt your life...if it does, I will try to make amends....chances are though...what I do and how I live is going to have less impact than those that want to tell you how to live and what to believe

reply to post by Jeremiah65


Jeremiah, thanks so much for your efforts and posts in this thread.

I appreciate your point of view very much, and am glad to see you sharing it!
I agree, we are at a crossroads, and I agree we can do it, but you are exactly right - not by preying on others, but by pulling TOGETHER for the benefit of everyone.

You might be interested in reading some of Robert Wright's books, which touch on the very ideas you state so well:

The Evolution of God (a study of the history of the Abrahamic religions as evolved from prehistoric tribalism) Relevant to the current discussion in terms of how religion affects societies and leadership thought.

Non Zero; The Logic of Human Destiny (discussed game theory and the win-win techniques necessary for us to survive as a species. Specifically "pulling together" rather than being "pushed together" comes to mind, though he talks at great length about win-lose predatory behavior and how futile it is)

The Moral Animal; Why We Are the Way We Are About the recent developments and philosophies of the Science of Evolutionary Psycholgoy

All very worthwhile, for ANYONE reading this thread and wondering what to do next.

Yes!

In the past, the social attacks on gays and anyone who isn't Christian or white was extremely effective. When the electorate is made up mostly of white men then that's a good strategy.
It isn't like that anymore though. The pandering to angry white dudes is not a proper angle to victory anymore.
We are going to slowly see the GOP move back toward the center thankfully. It will make for less funny comedy shows, but it's going to be refreshing to not hear about new rules concerning rape and special math which only Karl Rove uses to make himself feel better.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by neo96

 

neo96? I don't dare go toe to toe with you, but what you just posted is exactly what is happening.

The government is laying taxes to support the welfare of the Union. . The wealthy don't want to pay those taxes.

When there are 50 million on SS,50 million on medicare, another 50 million on medicaid, then 47 on welfare that is not a benefit of the state.

What is come to be known as "general weflare" has become a detriment to the state.

Think about it if your getting paid by the taxation of others instead of paying that taxation we end where they are consuming more taxation that paid in.

The largest consumer of federal taxation is the poor and middle class.

and another thing,

Make up my mind, which is it?

Either conservatives are inbred mouth breathing toothless hillbilly rednecks or they,

"live in McMansions".

Which is it?

reply to post by neo96


Because they can't afford to support themselves, because the profits of giant corporations are hidden off-shore and the jobs are going to India and China!

What do you want those people to do?? Move to India and China? Or live like the Indian and Chinese poverty-stricken slave laborers that are making the rich richer??

Don't you see? If those people had jobs (that weren't shipped overseas at the drop of a percentage point) and could support themselves, they would do so!

reply to post by Stormdancer777


What?

Who said that? I don't think that's the picture here, and I'm not sure where you got that notion.

reply to post by wildtimes

Because they can't afford to support themselves, because the profits of giant corporations are hidden off-shore and the jobs are going to India and China!

What do people think all those social programs do?

Take from someone else to pay for someone else's existence and line the pockets of all those evil corporations:

Be it birth control pills-Big pharma
Be it healthcare - doctors,lawyers,nurses,.hospiitals
Be it education- College and universities.

Social programs are nothing but corporate fascism because all that money ends up in corporate pockets by government legislated "morality"./

Religion

The proportion of Democrats saying they never doubt the existence of God has dropped 11 percentage points to 77 percent in 2012.

Among white Democrats, the change is even more dramatic. (Blacks, who comprise 25 percent of the Democratic Party, have higher levels of religiosity than whites.) White Democrats dropped 17 percentage points – from 85 percent in 2002 to 68 percent in 2012. Independents have seen a similar decline and match Democrats in their belief in the existence of God.
Read more at www.christianpost.com...

Money
Archive for the ‘Richest Democrats’ Category
www.therichest.org...

An analysis of the Top 20 Richest People in America (from Forbes Top 100) reveals that a full 60% are actually Democrats. Furthermore, if you look at it from a “family” point of view and not as indivisuals, thereby eliminating duplication caused by people from the same family being included in that Top 20 list (Wal-Mart & Koch) that ratio widens even further to:
25% Republican / 75% Democrat.

(The purpose of this analysis is not who makes the most money, but where they contribute / by party affiliation. Obviously, people from the same family would tend to contribute to the same party.)

Analyzing the data takes us even further. Not only are there more Democrats in the Top 20 list, but those Democrats are a lot more stingy with their money when it comes to campaign contributions. Republicans coughed up $5.2 million while Democrats squirted out only $2.1 Million. These statistics would indicate that the more you have, the less you give.

Contributions paid to special interest groups are a little harder to track. But we have no reason not to assume that the money these Top 1% of the population contribute to Special Interest groups wouldn’t match (or closely match) those of their chosen political affiliation. So when you add in the money contributed to these groups, you end up with Republican Contributions at $10 million while Democrats contributed only $6 million. Again, it appears that the Democrats are a bit more stingy with their money.

Lest we not forget, Democrats outweigh Republicans. Not only in terms of the number of uber-millionaires, but also with their net worth. In this Top 20 group, Democrats have a combined net worth of $263.1 billion dollars while the Republicans have a combined net worth of only $143.9 billion dollars – almost half that of Democrats.

So the next time you hear some Liberal try the “Evil Rich People” rhetoric, remind them and everyone around you that it is the Democrats who are those “Evil Rich People”, not the Republicans. Then stand back and watch their head spin.

newamericangazette.com...

Plus the top poorest state in the union swing Republican.

Send me a check.

reply to post by wildtimes


The real problem here is our notion of "full employment." For 30+ years, efficiencies in communications and technology has drastically reduced the total number of jobs at or above poverty level, while population has doubled. There simply aren't enough full time jobs to go around, and the problem is systemic, which is to say that it must be addressed through system wide changes in how we manage trade, subsidies, technology, education and, yes -- "full employment."

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by Stormdancer777

 

What?

Who said that? I don't think that's the picture here, and I'm not sure where you got that notion.

It has been said on this forum a million times throughout the years,

just sayin

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by neo96

 

Because they can't afford to support themselves, because the profits of giant corporations are hidden off-shore and the jobs are going to India and China!

What do you want those people to do?? Move to India and China? Or live like the Indian and Chinese poverty-stricken slave laborers that are making the rich richer??

Don't you see? If those people had jobs (that weren't shipped overseas at the drop of a percentage point) and could support themselves, they would do so!

According to the GOP, if you don't have a job it's your own fault.

This election should have made it clear that we are a massively diversified people. However...I have always enjoyed the differences of my "imported" friends.

I had a friend a few years ago...Edward Borisenko. Ed was an illegal immigrant...he jumped ship in the middle of the Atlantic and swan to a fishing trawler out in the north Atlantic. Ed was Ukrainian. He told me horror stories of his time in the USSR military when he was in Afghanistan and the things he had to do. Back then, you had to do so many years in the army and so many years in the navy. Ed did his time in the army and while in the navy...he decided enough was enough.

The Russians at the time were patrolling the north Atlantic and the pulled up alongside a trawler....they checked their papers and were prepared to move along...Ed and his friend jumped ship...literally...and swam toward the trawler....as the Russian ship pulled away, it was a fluke that the fisherman saw Ed and his friend...they took them in and brought them stateside.

Do you have any idea how profound this scenario is? Ed...was my friend...he was one of the most wonderful human beings I have ever come to know. I am a big fat redneck and I drink alot...we enjoyed lots and lots of Vodka together.... Sadly, Ed was killed while trying to change a tire on I-64 around Norfolk....there are no words for how much I miss that guy...he was...my friend. He had an air of innocence and goodness that we have completely lost...all he wanted was to be free. How is that repubs/democrats?....how can you hurt a culture a world away that only wants to be like us?

I can tell you now...most Russians are not our enemy...all they want is the life that they see through rose colored glasses....and...whose fault is that....yeah...we painted it...now shouldn't we deliver it?

I miss my friend...i will never ever forget what I learned from him....he had honor and dignity and was an extremely clever fellow...but what mattered most....he just wanted to be free.....just like us.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by NavyDoc

 

I'm not much into "God," but you fail in the basic premise that someone must be wealthy because the "robbed" "stole" or "cheat" and don't seem to be able to understand the fact that many people are wealthy through skill, talent, and good luck. How many people has Stephen King robbed? J.K. Rowling? George Lucas? Steve Jobs?

Interesting choice of "specimens". Two authors, a brilliant movie-maker, and...and...a tech guy.

Writing is hard work (from experience I vouch for that). Those people aren't being accused of anything, are they? Nope, they aren't. They earned their wealth by using their talents, NOT BY EXPLOITING WORKERS to do it for them in other countries.

I have NO PROBLEM with people who have amassed fortunes deservedly, and King and Rowling and Lucas are heroes of mine (a creative type). Jobs is a different venue altogether, and we certainly all have better technological access than we did before Jobs et al made computers personally friendly and affordable. Kudos to them.

I am talking ONLY about the rich who got rich by exploiting others, and I think I've made that clear. There are very good people who ARE wealthy, and who DO contribute to the betterment of society of their own accord. Oprah, Gates, and others who actually earned their wealth and DO share it with others. Kudos to them, too!

But Madoffs and Romneys and Dimons and all those people who DID make conscious decisions to TAKE OTHER PEOPLE'S MONEY and gamble with it, and then yank jobs away from them to earn even more chips on the table, are a completely different parasitic type.

How many people has King or Rowling laid off? How many jobs did they give to Chinese slaves instead? Um, none that I know of, except perhaps Jobs.

It reminds me a bit of Lance Armstrong at the moment. Won all those awards, on a lie. Now stripped of those rewards, because he was exposed. He was not bailed out by the taxpayers.

Please tell me you see the glaring difference. No, not everyone who is wealthy cheated. But the ones who DID cheat, and they (and some of us) know who they are....are not being held accountable to return the favor they were done.

edit on 9-11-2012 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)

My choices of specimens were based on that the left hates the wealthy except for celebrities. They are allowed to be wealthy.

My point is, that one can and does get wealthy without Cheating, robbing, or stealing. John H. Schnatter, Tom Monaghan (whom I know on a personal level), Jeff Bezos, the list goes on and on of people who are wealthy because of talent, skill, and hard work.

Madoff cheated and he is in jail now, so I that does not support the premise of the evil rich keeping themselves rich by being evil. He got caught in fraud, and was put in prison.

Romney? How did he rob, kill, or cheat anyone? He was hired to make a company streamlined and he did so with great success. Just because a company or a business or an individual has to lay off an employee does not fit the definition of immoral or illegal. Business does what it has to do to remain a business. That is kind of the whole point.

Oprah had to lay off 30 people because her network was not doing so well.
www.deadline.com... eys-own-cable-network-lays-off-30-people-in-restructuring/
Is she evil, immoral, cheating, robbing, and pilliaging for this or is she simply making a sound business decision based on the economic realities of her attempt at a network? Why is she an example of "not evil" when others are "evil" for doing the exact same thing for the exact same reasons?

Where do you think most of the Harry Potter games, toys, videos, books, dolls, wands, etc are made? I give you a hint...it's not England. J. K. Rowling exploits Chinese workers for her merchandizing efforts by your definition and thus MUST be the evil wealthy. (With a net worth of over 1 Billion, she is definately above the 1%). What makes her cool, but Bain evil?

Where do you think all of those Star Wars toys are made? Is George Lucas an evil exploiter of Chinese slave labor?

Investment bankers and investors can and do become wealthy honestly. They are paid for a service--people willingly give them money in hopes that they will increase the money they are given. Absent fraud like Madoff, they earn their income just as honestly as a writer like Stephen King or a musician like Michael Jackson.

Originally posted by Jeremiah65
reply to post by NavyDoc

 

Maybe....But what is Utopia? It is an idea. I completely understand that the will of man...the will of the many.... is a strong blockade. I also understand we have some damn clever people looking to circumvent those dogmatic ideals. We can rise to a different place. We can overcome damn near anything. We are the only species on this planet...ever...capable of influencing it's own evolution. Do I believe in theocratic dogma and evolution?...yes I do...man what kinda weirdo am I?

I believe we have it within us to overcome anything...and here is the big "IF"....if we learn to work together for the common good of our species. Predatory behavior is not going to advance our species...it is going to trap it and control it and eventually destroy it. We can be better than this...I am speaking purely now as a philosopher...I think we have the capacity for absolutely amazing things. I also do not disregard our nature to be extremely repugnant pricks...we can do that too.

I like to think that we are approaching a crossroads...we can continue to be a predatory species...or...we can take a turn and move toward advancement and growth...no...sorry...the two do not work together....no matter how much the cronies want to pretend they do.

The future holds lots of opportunities...but what is opportunity? Is it the opportunity to swell the wealth of you family? or is it the opportunity to further mankind?

Pretty tough questions isn't it? I like to think that rationality will prevail. The furthering of the species is far more important than shoring up your families wealth. I know...I am probably wrong...BUT...with the new changes we are seeing in the environmental world and the meteorological world...certain facts can no longer be ignored. Things are changing and denial is just a river in Egypt.

Best of luck folks...I am going to continue living my Libertarian/anarchist life and I hope my life does not hurt your life...if it does, I will try to make amends....chances are though...what I do and how I live is going to have less impact than those that want to tell you how to live and what to believe

Ah, but hence is the philosophical rub. What is the common good?

Why is robbing a person to provide welfare for the poor any less predatory than robbing a person to provide another penthouse for the wealthy? The act is still predition, just with a different justification that makes a different set of people feel good about themselves.

How is mankind furthered? By encouraging innovation, expansion, exploration, experimentation. Mankind advances when people dare to do better, go farther, and seek the unknown.

Socialism, wealth redistribution, social justice, and making things "fair" does exactly the opposite. It stifles innovation and discourages advancement and betterment. It is the path of stagnation and devolution. It destroys the individual and makes one a statistic rather than a person. It is dehumanizing.

No system is perfect, but one, such as a free market society where one is encouraged to do more and seek more because he is permitted to reap the benefits of his individual effort is the one that has and always will propell mandkinds forward as a whole.

Socialism is not the opposite of capitalism. In fact -- it is entirely possible to organize competitive, free-market companies to be stake-holder owned, rather than share-holder owned.

See also: market socialism.

reply to post by wildtimes


Thank you lady.....I do not try to serve an agenda...we are what hat we are. We have it within us to be wonderful...but we have some baggage that we cannot seem to overcome. We will prevail..I just hope what we are asking for is fair to everyone....no....it is not okay to dictate ever. You are free to believe whatever it is you believe...just do not be upset that we disagree with you.

Do not tell me how to live...we can fight till the stars burn out....you will not win.

Originally posted by NavyDoc

Originally posted by Jeremiah65
reply to post by NavyDoc

 

Maybe....But what is Utopia? It is an idea. I completely understand that the will of man...the will of the many.... is a strong blockade. I also understand we have some damn clever people looking to circumvent those dogmatic ideals. We can rise to a different place. We can overcome damn near anything. We are the only species on this planet...ever...capable of influencing it's own evolution. Do I believe in theocratic dogma and evolution?...yes I do...man what kinda weirdo am I?

I believe we have it within us to overcome anything...and here is the big "IF"....if we learn to work together for the common good of our species. Predatory behavior is not going to advance our species...it is going to trap it and control it and eventually destroy it. We can be better than this...I am speaking purely now as a philosopher...I think we have the capacity for absolutely amazing things. I also do not disregard our nature to be extremely repugnant pricks...we can do that too.

I like to think that we are approaching a crossroads...we can continue to be a predatory species...or...we can take a turn and move toward advancement and growth...no...sorry...the two do not work together....no matter how much the cronies want to pretend they do.

The future holds lots of opportunities...but what is opportunity? Is it the opportunity to swell the wealth of you family? or is it the opportunity to further mankind?

Pretty tough questions isn't it? I like to think that rationality will prevail. The furthering of the species is far more important than shoring up your families wealth. I know...I am probably wrong...BUT...with the new changes we are seeing in the environmental world and the meteorological world...certain facts can no longer be ignored. Things are changing and denial is just a river in Egypt.

Best of luck folks...I am going to continue living my Libertarian/anarchist life and I hope my life does not hurt your life...if it does, I will try to make amends....chances are though...what I do and how I live is going to have less impact than those that want to tell you how to live and what to believe

Ah, but hence is the philosophical rub. What is the common good?

Why is robbing a person to provide welfare for the poor any less predatory than robbing a person to provide another penthouse for the wealthy? The act is still predition, just with a different justification that makes a different set of people feel good about themselves.

How is mankind furthered? By encouraging innovation, expansion, exploration, experimentation. Mankind advances when people dare to do better, go farther, and seek the unknown.

Socialism, wealth redistribution, social justice, and making things "fair" does exactly the opposite. It stifles innovation and discourages advancement and betterment. It is the path of stagnation and devolution. It destroys the individual and makes one a statistic rather than a person. It is dehumanizing.

No system is perfect, but one, such as a free market society where one is encouraged to do more and seek more because he is permitted to reap the benefits of his individual effort is the one that has and always will propell mandkinds forward as a whole.

In a sense, you are asking the wrong pesron... want to see extreme ridiculousness....I want to see those that think they are clever in charge...just so they see they are not so clever....the world works mysteriously...and they are not in the loop.

Here is a clue man...reality is lost to you and yours. I am going to try and work off the grid to make things right...but you..you folks participating in the madness of yesterdays election...youm are not mentally qualified to participate....tell me why I should let you in to our society....seems that you are dangerous and crazy.

reply to post by NavyDoc

Business does what it has to do to remain a business. That is kind of the whole point.

Businesses that are doing so poorly that they have to outsource jobs to make ANY profit were doomed anyway, and not being led appropriately.

Businesses that buy up small companies, turn them around and then ship those jobs to foreign soil and stash the profits and don't give any second thought to the people they pushed out of their jobs....are exploiting others.

But seeing as you are refusing to see any of my points, I will stop trying to make them. I have stated my case with as much as I can offer. I have explained my own point of view, the reasons for it, and how I think it could be fixed. That's all I can do. If others want to put words in my mouth or insert imagined "meanings" between the lines, or deliberately "spin" what I started the thread for, I can't help that.

Romney is a vulture capitalist, who outsourced jobs, destroyed small companies (rather than helping them do better and then handing the reins back to them), and then evaded taxes. I don't want someone with that background, or his friends and relations, running this country. Because they aren't invested in it. They are sheltered "observers" and cheating hypocrites, and (in my mind) nothing more. It's easy to sit back and say, "Meh, I've got plenty to live off of, and if things go sour here in my country and I'm expected to pull my weight with supporting it, and paying back the people who bailed out the markets, well, I'll just do business in China! So there!"

Thanks, though, for the dialogue.