A Loving God who throws folks in hell because they didn't want to be controlled by him?

Originally posted by subjectzero
reply to post by ImaFungi

 

And the same could be said of God. Why should we love and obey that which would kill us and condemn us to burn forever?

if you read my first response in this thread,, you will notice i dont believe in hell as a literal place.,..,

but yes it may be,.,.,.

if you are bad and will eternally be bad given the chance,.,. i agree with god,,, destroy that blotch/blemish from your attempt at a perfect creation,,

Originally posted by arpgme
Responsibility implies that there is some type of obligation - in other words that "God" is "controlling". If he is "controlling" then that means he does not love people as they are but ONLY AS he WANT THEM TO BE.

So this God is NOT love, but only has selective loving which means that he CAN'T be the essence of love itself, which is my point.

Boy, you just aren't getting it, are you?

God isn't controlling you, he's very specifically not controlling you. You're welcome to do what you want, and in the end, you receive what you have asked for, existence without him.

How is he to blame for your decisions?

Originally posted by mc4denmark

Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by arpgme

 

do you love a shark about to bite your head off?

why should god love an evil man who distorts his creations and defiles his gift of life and harms his neighbors?

You might not love the shark, but you have to respect that this is the nature of the shark, and is a understandable act, since it is a carnivore. That does not give you any reason to hate and /or torture the shark - would you not agree?

im not saying hate or torture,,, but you might be scared or mad,,.,.

I was making an analogy along the lines of,.,, yes love all things,,, but if something is attempting to destroy or defile you ( in gods case,, especially if your the one that created said thing) ,.,.,. put said thing in its place,..,,.

reply to post by ImaFungi

Originally posted by ImaFungi

have you ever had a pet who wouldnt listen to you? did this anger you? even though that pet is a free and individual being,,

Again, if a pet doesn't listen and it angers me, that is irrelevant. I never claimed to be the embodiment of love, only to be lovING.

reply to post by adjensen

Originally posted by adjensen
Boy, you just aren't getting it, are you?

God isn't controlling you, he's very specifically not controlling you. You're welcome to do what you want, and in the end, you receive what you have asked for, existence without him.

How is he to blame for your decisions?

i understand everything your saying and my response to that is still this:

If you don't want to be around someone, that is your decision, but should you be punished eternally for not wanting to be around someone? Even if you agree that it is RIGHT for that person to punish the other eternally for whatever reason, there is no WAY that person can be the essence of love.

If you are the essence of love, then you LOVE, not hate, not be angry, sad, etc...
If you are LovING, then it makes sense that you can experience other emotions also,
but God claimed to be LOVE itself
but this isn't true since he doesn't love people for who they are but only as he WANTS them to be

reply to post by ImaFungi

The gift - Sure, but I wouldn't send them to hell over it.

The pet - I didn't give that animal life. It is not my right to be angry with it for its nature. It was made that way for a reason.

AI - You have made a very good point here and advanced your argument significantly.

AI is the next stage of our evolution and it is going to teach us what God could not. It is going to teach us that we should temper our curiosity with morality or risk consequences far beyond what we can imagine. Think food supply. Think disease.

God is watching and he is a hands-off sort of fellow.

Originally posted by ImaFungi

Originally posted by mc4denmark

Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by arpgme

 

do you love a shark about to bite your head off?

why should god love an evil man who distorts his creations and defiles his gift of life and harms his neighbors?

You might not love the shark, but you have to respect that this is the nature of the shark, and is a understandable act, since it is a carnivore. That does not give you any reason to hate and /or torture the shark - would you not agree?

im not saying hate or torture,,, but you might be scared or mad,,.,.

I was making an analogy along the lines of,.,, yes love all things,,, but if something is attempting to destroy or defile you ( in gods case,, especially if your the one that created said thing) ,.,.,. put said thing in its place,..,,.

Okay, I can see what you mean.

Still, in my opinion, since god should be the creator of all, and without flaws, he would have to accept and love he's own beings, no matter what they do or belief, we are created in his image, in his essence and therefore are flawless by default. I can not see a god, as a perfect being, if he lacks basic understanding of the humans psychics.

If such a devine being should exist, I could never see this being as nothing else than complete understanding and forgiveness, no matter the crime. The only thing that breeds concisions is currently conflicts, and this being would have to have a universal understanding of this topic, and my philosophy would say, that when you have universal understanding, you would have the ability to forgive anything .

reply to post by arpgme


Well, since you can't seem to sort it out that way, turn it around.

Let's say that you live your life as you see fit, ignoring God, badmouthing him, trying to turn people away from him and saying that you want nothing to do with him. You die and, oopsies, it's exactly what Christians said it was going to be -- you're standing before God, ready to answer for your behaviour.

What do you expect him to do, and what's your rationalization for it?

reply to post by adjensen

Originally posted by adjensen
reply to post by arpgme

 

Well, since you can't seem to sort it out that way, turn it around.

Let's say that you live your life as you see fit, ignoring God, badmouthing him, trying to turn people away from him and saying that you want nothing to do with him. You die and, oopsies, it's exactly what Christians said it was going to be -- you're standing before God, ready to answer for your behaviour.

What do you expect him to do, and what's your rationalization for it?

He would do whatever he does. Just like any other sick individual who would torture just because the person didn't do what they say. If I get punished just for me being myself, at least I'd know that he is not the essence of love but just another being, and if I do get sent to hell, at least I had to chance to live comfortable and NATURALLY than these people in heaven who will be controlled for all eternity by this god and having to deny themselves... and believe that LIE that he is the essence of love, and that he actually loves them when he doesn't, he only loves what he WANTs them to be...

reply to post by adjensen

There are two problems with this -- first, I'm not a fundamentalist, so I view the Hebrew Bible (the one that people take offense at, rare is the critic who picks on the New Testament) as a book that foreshadows Christ and the Second Covenant, as well as telling the history of Israel and their God, in the context of both real and imaged (or allegorical, if one is so inclined) stories. Secondly, by dismissing the whole of the work, based on the 5 percent or so that one finds distasteful, one is on a par with a scientist who collects data, then dismisses all observations other than the five percent that agree with the conclusions he wishes to find. Even Dawkins would call such a scientist a charlatan (while he does the exact same thing, lol.)

I am sorry, but I don't seem to quite catch what you are saying here ? I think I got something out of it, that you dont really focus so much on the text in the bible, but that you are more, how to put it, spiritual in your belief ?

reply to post by arpgme


Then we're right back to square one - how is giving you what you've been asking for all your life unloving or unjust? If you can't even make a case for yourself, why do you think that anyone else should?

Seriously, your complaint boils down to whinging about something you neither believe in, care about or understand.

Originally posted by mc4denmark
I am sorry, but I don't seem to quite catch what you are saying here ? I think I got something out of it, that you dont really focus so much on the text in the bible, but that you are more, how to put it, spiritual in your belief ?

I view the Bible holistically, not literally or fragmentarily. Fundamentalists are literalists, while anti-theists tend to be fragmentary literalists.

Originally posted by mc4denmark

Originally posted by ImaFungi

Originally posted by mc4denmark

Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by arpgme

 

do you love a shark about to bite your head off?

why should god love an evil man who distorts his creations and defiles his gift of life and harms his neighbors?

You might not love the shark, but you have to respect that this is the nature of the shark, and is a understandable act, since it is a carnivore. That does not give you any reason to hate and /or torture the shark - would you not agree?

im not saying hate or torture,,, but you might be scared or mad,,.,.

I was making an analogy along the lines of,.,, yes love all things,,, but if something is attempting to destroy or defile you ( in gods case,, especially if your the one that created said thing) ,.,.,. put said thing in its place,..,,.

Okay, I can see what you mean.

Still, in my opinion, since god should be the creator of all, and without flaws, he would have to accept and love he's own beings, no matter what they do or belief, we are created in his image, in his essence and therefore are flawless by default. I can not see a god, as a perfect being, if he lacks basic understanding of the humans psychics.

If such a devine being should exist, I could never see this being as nothing else than complete understanding and forgiveness, no matter the crime. The only thing that breeds concisions is currently conflicts, and this being would have to have a universal understanding of this topic, and my philosophy would say, that when you have universal understanding, you would have the ability to forgive anything .

Once again we do not know what god thinks of itself or how it perceives itself.,. we dont know how god objectively compares to other gods or past gods or future gods in terms of lack of flaws and embodiment of perfection,, everything youve heard about god has been mans interpretation of himself existing in nature,.,.
do not get confused "the word of god" ( the bible) with "the word of god" ( god).,.,.,.

hmm ok,, why forgive anything? if you make a good creation and a by definition and demonstration bad part of your creation destroys the good,, why would you forgive the bad? is that how the human justice system works?
especially when what man is, is suppose to be civil and intelligence and wise?

yes maybe he does forgive all people.,,.,.

but his creation might not be in vain,.,,. maybe he enjoys the qualities of good in mankind.,,. and while good exists on this planet and people are healthy and happy,,. that truth in the universe,, that budding planet of life and good will and joy,, is something that is exceptionally good and wonderful about the potential of what god can create,,

its a difficult topic good and evil ,..,,. it seems there is little distinguishment in the natural world,,. or little of matter,.., the lion is rewarded for snapping the neck of a baby gazelle.,,.

but since we are talking about the sophisticated man,, and his soul,, and the fact that man and civilization thrives on cooperation and goodwill,,.hmm i dont know,,,,

this is also why i earlier said i believe heaven and hell might just be metaphors for experiences on earth.,,
and hell also an instruction of politics and law,, to abolish bad men from the kingdom of haven or society,., judging them by their bad fruits/works..... the say given to god,,, god being whatever "god" appointed king or ruler controls the nation,..,,.

but yea.,.,., the only reason we think hell exists is because some men imagined it might.,,.
the only reason i imagine it might and they might be right and if there was a god he might do that.,,.
is because existence may be a lesson,,, there may be realms in which there is much more to existence then eating, pooping, sleeping, and sexing,.,.,.,.,..,
and god may have a "no idiots allowed" policy in that club,.,.
and there are of tremendous power and force showcased in the univese,, that i could easily imagine if our souls were some type of quantom something,, they could be tortured by going to black holes,, or used as fuel in stars or something,.,., once i was even thinking what if "dark energy and matter" was from "dark souls and spirits",,, thats real funny and silly i know.,.,,.

at the end of it all im good for goodness sake,,, and if there is a god,, it knows i would like to learn,, i respect it,,. i appreciate it.,,. and am looking for a cool job when i retire from earth..

Originally posted by ZeroReady
You're not going to change 2000 years of dogma with a couple lines of text.

Religion doesn't make any sense. There's no use arguing with it. Just let religious people believe what they want. If they say their god is jealous, then just let them have a jealous god.

But religion do make sense if you use them as a map knowing they are meant not to be perfect . And why would god be jealous. It made sure they where all created with their differences to be able to appeal to people on different level of understanding.

reply to post by arpgme

I hope AdJensen will forgive me for putting words in (his/her) mouth, and for butting in, but I think your last post is revealing.

if I do get sent to hell, at least I had to chance to live comfortable and NATURALLY than these people in heaven who will be controlled for all eternity by this god and having to deny themselves... and believe that LIE that he is the essence of love, and that he actually loves them when he doesn't, he only loves what he WANTs them to be..

So since you believe that Hell is better than Heaven, what is your response if God says, "Ok, if that's what you want, Hell's all yours, see ya?"

People choose Hell, or rather, they choose not to be with God. You get what you ask for.

.

reply to post by charles1952


she wants to do what ever she wants and still have god love her,,,,

like a baby who doesnt understand why its being punished ( because daddy said he would always love it) for drawing on the walls with its sisters blood and putting the cat in the microwave....

Wahhhhh you said youd always love me wahhhhhhh your the bad guy because you lied wahhhhhhhh lier your a fake lover wahhhhhh

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by mc4denmark
I am sorry, but I don't seem to quite catch what you are saying here ? I think I got something out of it, that you dont really focus so much on the text in the bible, but that you are more, how to put it, spiritual in your belief ?

I view the Bible holistically, not literally or fragmentarily. Fundamentalists are literalists, while anti-theists tend to be fragmentary literalists.

Okay, thanks for explaining it to me.

I would agree with you, that there are many ways to look at the evidence. For my case, I try to look at all thing together and of cause use my critical sense. I just do not see any proof for the bible to be true or the omni-potent god to exist.

I think that both non-theist and theist have the same ability to cherry-picking of information. The real thing here, is the ability to always have a open-mind and consider other peoples opinions.

Originally posted by arpgme
reply to post by icepack

 

The gender is not important. I am questioning how could a God who claims to be love itself, can actually be if the people aren't even loved for being who they are but as who it is DESIRED for them to be by this god...

It is not that the people are not loved. It is that you cannot put a ego parasitic predator with ego less loving harmonious beings without destroying the habitat.

You go where you fit in (or sometimes below where you fit in). But it is up to the spirit to show where it fits in and not by faith/brainwashing/dogma.

Originally posted by Cuervo

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by charles1952
reply to post by arpgme

 

Do you really don't understand, or are you saying that there can't be a loving God because a loving God wouldn't do this?

Same old song and dance:

"God cannot be good, because he punishes the evil people, and a loving God would not punish people when they do wrong, but rather let them get away with being immoral".

Therefore God does not exist, because he has a sense of justice they do not like to hear about.

The issue isn't his sense of "justice". It's getting punished for simply not following him. That has nothing to do with morals or right and wrong.

It's like saying that you are being immoral and evil if you don't send me birthday money and a card.

But that is just human dogma beliving in duality and have nothing to do with the reality of god. God does not punish someone based on views or that you say the right name of an idol/messenger. Actions speaks louder than word and thought. Just follow the golden rule and be moral. Fearing god is insane from my point of view. Why would a higher conciousness who wants a connection with you want you to fear it?

reply to post by ImaFungi

Once again we do not know what god thinks of itself or how it perceives itself.,. we dont know how god objectively compares to other gods or past gods or future gods in terms of lack of flaws and embodiment of perfection,, everything youve heard about god has been mans interpretation of himself existing in nature,.,. do not get confused "the word of god" ( the bible) with "the word of god" ( god).,.,.,. hmm ok,, why forgive anything? if you make a good creation and a by definition and demonstration bad part of your creation destroys the good,, why would you forgive the bad? is that how the human justice system works? especially when what man is, is suppose to be civil and intelligence and wise? yes maybe he does forgive all people.,,.,. but his creation might not be in vain,.,,. maybe he enjoys the qualities of good in mankind.,,. and while good exists on this planet and people are healthy and happy,,. that truth in the universe,, that budding planet of life and good will and joy,, is something that is exceptionally good and wonderful about the potential of what god can create,, its a difficult topic good and evil ,..,,. it seems there is little distinguishment in the natural world,,. or little of matter,.., the lion is rewarded for snapping the neck of a baby gazelle.,,. but since we are talking about the sophisticated man,, and his soul,, and the fact that man and civilization thrives on cooperation and goodwill,,.hmm i dont know,,,, this is also why i earlier said i believe heaven and hell might just be metaphors for experiences on earth.,, and hell also an instruction of politics and law,, to abolish bad men from the kingdom of haven or society,., judging them by their bad fruits/works..... the say given to god,,, god being whatever "god" appointed king or ruler controls the nation,..,,. but yea.,.,., the only reason we think hell exists is because some men imagined it might.,,. the only reason i imagine it might and they might be right and if there was a god he might do that.,,. is because existence may be a lesson,,, there may be realms in which there is much more to existence then eating, pooping, sleeping, and sexing,.,.,.,.,.., and god may have a "no idiots allowed" policy in that club,.,. and there are of tremendous power and force showcased in the univese,, that i could easily imagine if our souls were some type of quantom something,, they could be tortured by going to black holes,, or used as fuel in stars or something,.,., once i was even thinking what if "dark energy and matter" was from "dark souls and spirits",,, thats real funny and silly i know.,.,,. at the end of it all im good for goodness sake,,, and if there is a god,, it knows i would like to learn,, i respect it,,. i appreciate it.,,. and am looking for a cool job when i retire from earth..

Whoa, that was a lot of text, well, it is a very deep and philosophical topic.

Well, in order to forgive the bad, you would have to understand the bad. And unfortunately our society’s way of punishment is just creating more crime and hate. I know its a very difficult topic, but much research indicates that instead of punishment, we could "save" many people by helping them. When we send of juniors to jail, we very often create more conflict in the individual, if this person had got real help and understanding, odds are that the "evil" drive would be lessen than if they serve time in jail as punishment - but in order for that system to work, everyone would have to had a higher way of understanding.

We humans tend to despite the unknown instead of embracing it and trying to understand it - would you not agree that a higher being probably would have mastered this ability ? I certainly think so.

reply to post by adjensen

Originally posted by adjensen
reply to post by arpgme

 

Then we're right back to square one - how is giving you what you've been asking for all your life unloving or unjust? If you can't even make a case for yourself, why do you think that anyone else should?

Seriously, your complaint boils down to whinging about something you neither believe in, care about or understand.

I'm not "asking" to go to hell. I'm "asking" to not be controlled. Going to hell is the punishment for not letting the god control you.

reply to post by charles1952

Originally posted by charles1952
reply to post by arpgme

 

So since you believe that Hell is better than Heaven, what is your response if God says, "Ok, if that's what you want, Hell's all yours, see ya?"

People choose Hell, or rather, they choose not to be with God. You get what you ask for.

.

I didn't say Hell was Better than Heaven. I said that if I did get SENT to hell (as punishment), then at least I got to live comfortably and natural rather than those who will be controlled for eternity believing the lie that god loves them when he only love who he WANTS them to be...

The Christian heaven and hell are both horrible and whether you go to one or other, you will still be controlled against your will , so that is not the essence of love to put people in a situation like that. It is very controlling, if you control someone you don't love them for who they are, only for who you WANT them to be...