A Loving God who throws folks in hell because they didn't want to be controlled by him?

reply to post by Philippines


If you are living with the belief that the past matters and the future matters you will suffer (hell). You will be mentally torturing yourself with worrying and you will know stress.
When you realize that there is no past and no future - when you stay in presence - you will be in heaven.

It is not that you will 'go to hell' in the future - when you die - you experience life as hell or you experience life as heaven. If you are suffering life then you are 'in hell'. If life is not suffering then you are 'in heaven'.

There is only life. But humans think there is life and then there is 'me - who has a life'. The 'me' that thinks it has a life is the problem, it is the trouble maker, it is the one that 'thinks' it will die (in the future).
Life cannot die.

Originally posted by arpgme
How can you love someone if you can't even accept them for who they are, but instead want to change them? If that is the case you do not love THEM, you love who you WANT them to be.

If this is the case, how could a God claim to be love itself? That would be a lie, since the only love is when people are fulfilling HIS desire to be as HE wants them to be.

If you love your child, what would you do to stop it from sticking its fingers in a powerpoint?...and is your...mmm...reaction, a reaction of love?

Arpgme...I really thought you'd had some kind of epiphany in the last couple of months...seems you lost sight of it...pity...

A99

reply to post by Philippines


I've been thinking on that myself, will be a good bible study. I cannot answer that question, at the moment, Biblically.

Originally posted by milkyway12

God doesn't need to ask you to exist. He is giving you a choice, you forget, just because you don't want to bend to authority doesn't make the authority go away. You can also just deny God's existence and hope you're right.

A self imposed authority, who wasn't voted in and now rules much like a dictator, an intergalactic dictator, that chooses to punish those who (by no fault of there own) require evidence for its existence..........endlessly. A swell guy.

Jesus paid your dues

Being whipped for an afternoon, nailed by a group of roman soldiers, then returning 3 days later to continue it's intergalactic dictatorship...........is paying my dues?

Pay my rent, that'll help a lot more than paying for the 'sins' of a man that didn't know any better.

If you don't want anything to do with God or Jesus, then there is a place for that.

Such threats only work on the weak and desperate, in other words those who your cult feeds on inorder to survive...

reply to post by Wonders


That was a good Word. Thank you for sharing it with us.
One of my daily prayers is that I never be a stumbling block along anyone's pursuit of salvation.

Having said that, I concede to the Truth that was spoken in your reply, accept Its reproof and stand by all that you said.

However, I would also like to offer insight to you in regard to my intentions and reasoning behind my statement, "The simple truth is, no human being alive on earth really knows."
My attempt to mitigate that statement with my personal understanding and faith was by including the sentence that immediately followed it, "And even if there were a handful that did, the truth would simply get lost in the myriad of opinionated understandings professed by others on the matter. "

I can tell someone what I know with every fiber of my being to be Truth, but unless they experience it for themselves, my words mean nothing. I am mindful that there are many on ATS that have had what they consider supernatural spiritual experiences. Thus I cannot assume that the standard by which I would define a truly righteous interaction and/or experience versus a deceptive, misleading one, would be the same as theirs. What I know to be deception, others have embraced as true.
On ATS, speaking what I know of deeper Truths to someone who believes they have already experienced it, in one form or another, only makes them feel attacked, judged and belittled. Truth will always be met with rebellion by Deception.

I still stand by my statement of it being a simple truth that no human being alive--- less the handful of exceptions that most likely do exist. But, like I said, the sheer quantity of disinformation on the matter clouds anyone's attempt at discernment; and, as we both agree, the absolute truth can only be revealed divinely, through faith, making any person's attempt to share that revelatory truth to someone deceived into believing they have already found it or those having no desire to seek it in the first place, perceived as merely subjective--- where was I? Oh, yeah, so having said allllll that, I think it not misleading to state that in all actuality, less and except my previous digression, no one truly knows or has seen what only God has the final word upon.
The truth is, our Truth is based on scripture and personal experience. My spirit can recognize Godly Truths, but it is something that I have had to personally pursue of my own free will. A pursuit that is still ongoing and still encountering stumbling blocks along the way.

I do not relish in the unknown. I am actively seeking the deeper mysteries of salvation and the potential we have available to us through Christ. But I am mindful to humble myself when it's appropriate for me to concede that ultimate and absolute truths can only be sought in faith and definitively attested to by God. Anything we attempt to share on the matter is truly subjective to our own personal faith, albeit a faith that should collectively agree on foundational points and be Biblically self-supporting.
My intention was in no way to insinuate that we, as human beings, can never know the Highest Truths of the unknown. My intent was to express that we are all works in progress, and unless a person opens their heart towards the Highest Truth and humbles themself to receive it, anything you or I or anyone else tries to explain to them would simply be perceived as argumentative and self-righteous.

Originally posted by Symbiot

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Again, not following your logic. Heaven is a place filled with people who love Him, praise and worship Him, and everything is about Him. It would NOT be loving to force people to be there for eternity who don't love Him or desire to do those things.

I agree here in that god does not force himself upon us. He affords us the freedom to choose, we can choose to have him as our king or choose to have someone else as our commander in chief. The idea here is that god is infinitely intelligent, the punishment that comes from not choosing god is living your life under the command of an inferior intelligence.

It's not really god that casts you into hell, it's the natural consequences of your choices. The smartest candidate will lead you in the best direction while the lesser of the intelligences doesn't know where to take you. If you choose the lesser intelligence, not god, then you're going to be led in an un-wise direction. God can bring you to heaven, god knows how to bring you peace and happiness, the lesser intelligence really has no idea and will inevitably lead you off that cliff he didn't even know was there.

edit on 10-11-2012 by Symbiot because: (no reason given)

I agree that god does not force itself on ous if there is not an extreme need and pain. I know that believing a certain religion/viewpoint of it does not matter. Something on the other side is helping me with kindness and since I am not Christian in faith, then the small minded people who say Jesus is the only way to reach god and bullying everybody with hell if they do not agree are wrong. I have a feeling Jesus will be really pissed of at them when he meets them for their hate against their brothers and sisters for things that are not even important. God has a plan to get all souls home when it is their time and faith without works is dead. There are no FREE passes.

reply to post by LittleByLittle


Christ as in the truth... Oh so denied the truth remains, only the truth exists. You can deny the truth left and right, but only the truth shall set you free. The truth is real, deny the truth and into ignorance be cast.

reply to post by stupid girl


Wow, I loved your response, so smart! Thank you for taking the time to clarify, very insightful and I hope others appreciate what you've said as well. May people see that it's possible to experience the Love of God for themselves, may they dare to ask for good things.

Matthew 7:11 So if you sinful people know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give good gifts to those who ask him.

This verse means a lot to me. Talking to God is awesome when you know he loves you and is listening.

Originally posted by Wonders
reply to post by stupid girl

 

Matthew 7:11 So if you sinful people know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give good gifts to those who ask him.

Gift our children with the tools they need to grow into well balanced knowledgeable adults and in return they will gift the world with intelligently designed well thought out works. Treat your children like slaves and in return they will grow to treat you like a slave.

Gift them and they will gift you. Force them and they will force you.

Love them and they will love you. Hate them and they will hate you.

reply to post by akushla99

Originally posted by akushla99

If you love your child, what would you do to stop it from sticking its fingers in a powerpoint?...and is your...mmm...reaction, a reaction of love?

Well what if I created that powerpoint and knew they would try to put their finger there. Am I still a "good" person? I could have just set things up so that situation would not happen.

It WAS god creating hell (the danger) right?


My point is, forcing someone to be or do something they are NOT and then claiming to love them is ridiculous.l

Just like telling water to be dry or you won't love it is ridiculous.

reply to post by arpgme


I would not consider a dangerous power socket to be something to constitute the dangers of hell, but rather something that constitutes a challenge. Overcoming challenges not only makes us stronger via the knowledge gained, but also quite rewarding in my opinion. A life without challenges would be rather dull and not something I would consider heaven.

I'd say if you have a baby that is not capable of understanding you when you tell them the socket is dangerous then consider other options, there are socket covers, you could also cut the breaker to any sockets you find your child constantly picking at. When your child can understand you, which happens quite early, explain the dangers of sockets and if they persist it will be the shock that teaches them their lesson. The next time you offer advice perhaps your child will think, "well I should've taken their advice last time perhaps I should take it this time."

If you never allow your child to learn just why it is they should listen to you then they will never desire to listen to you as they don't know why they should. They need to learn their own lessons, moreover they're not the same person that you are and just because something was dangerous for you doesn't mean it will be dangerous for them. Just because the parent broke their leg on a dirt bike doesn't mean the child won't have a natural affinity for extreme sports. They have their own life to live and that life belongs to them and no other.

Edit: If the electrical shock teaches them their lesson then they will grow weary of the socket. If it is the parent that tries to teach the lesson then they will grow weary of the parent.

By the way I was actually shocked by a power outlet once. I had just washed my hands and went to unplug lights from a Christmas tree. Can't say for sure exactly what happened other than some water must've dripped and completed the circuit. It was a pretty hearty shock, but I wasn't injured. I suppose god found a way to teach me a quick lesson about deadly electricity without actually killing me.

Originally posted by Symbiot
reply to post by LittleByLittle

 

Christ as in the truth... Oh so denied the truth remains, only the truth exists. You can deny the truth left and right, but only the truth shall set you free. The truth is real, deny the truth and into ignorance be cast.

I know the difference between Christ Conciousness (the EN-LIGHT-NING) and Jesus the messenger that explained it among others. The same truth has been taught to every soul that is ready since the beginning of time.

Originally posted by Symbiot

Originally posted by Wonders
reply to post by stupid girl

 

Matthew 7:11 So if you sinful people know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give good gifts to those who ask him.

Gift our children with the tools they need to grow into well balanced knowledgeable adults and in return they will gift the world with intelligently designed well thought out works. Treat your children like slaves and in return they will grow to treat you like a slave.

Gift them and they will gift you. Force them and they will force you.

Love them and they will love you. Hate them and they will hate you.

edit on 11-11-2012 by Symbiot because: (no reason given)

The golden rule. Treat you brother and sister like yourself because they are part of you and connected to you. Jesus said it clearly:

35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

reply to post by LittleByLittle


You got that right! When you help one survive then he is able to help another survive who is then able to help another survive who is then able to help another survive, etcetera... By helping one you help all, including yourself. When you help someone out you may not see a return on that investment directly, but there is always a return on that investment.

For if a farmer helps a programmer by giving him food then the programmer will survive long enough to provide applications to help the mechanic who can use those applications to help build better equipment for the farmer. You see the farmer needs not receive direct payment for the food from the programmer, the programmer paid the farmer back indirectly.

Edit: The 'law' of supply and demand is flawed. Simply because more people desire it does not mean it's worth more, even the tiniest of contributions ripple throughout the entirety of our race.

Originally posted by Symbiot
reply to post by LittleByLittle

 

You got that right! When you help one survive then he is able to help another survive who is then able to help another survive who is then able to help another survive, etcetera... By helping one you help all, including yourself. When you help someone out you may not see a return on that investment directly, but there is always a return on that investment.

For if a farmer helps a programmer by giving him food then the programmer will survive long enough to provide applications to help the mechanic who can use those applications to help build better equipment for the farmer. You see the farmer needs not receive direct payment for the food from the programmer, the programmer paid the farmer back indirectly.

Edit: The 'law' of supply and demand is flawed. Simply because more people desire it does not mean it's worth more, even the tiniest of contributions ripple throughout the entirety of our race.

edit on 11-11-2012 by Symbiot because: (no reason given)

Lol. In the end your are from my point of view discussing pattern/soul thread theory. Interesting.

reply to post by LittleByLittle


I might not consider myself Christian, but I do believe there is some insight to be had from the Bible. Really I just have a different interpretation than many of the Christians that I've met.

reply to post by arpgme


Prepare to feel asleep.

Hell is what Andy Duphrame went through in Shawshank Redemption. Hell is waiting 6 hrs out in the freezing cold. Hell is when your girlfriend realises she's not mature enough to be with you anymore and you realise months or even years was a waste of your life.

Stuff like that is hell. Hell is making fun of someone in this life and realizing you may have to walk in their shoes in the next life. That's hell.

Hell is knowing that you have to sacrifice your life and be reincarnated on a planet with apes and live as them to teach them from the inside out all that they will need to join a coalition of space brothers. Hell is knowing you have to walk amongst them in the shadows because the elites of the world will realise just how great it is to use brainwashing, and other fear tactics to keep the people in their homes watching reality television.

Truth of the matter is god picks to walk the hardest road imaginable to help mankind to prove hes not a tyrant.

Ever thought about that?

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by Philippines

 

If you are living with the belief that the past matters and the future matters you will suffer (hell). You will be mentally torturing yourself with worrying and you will know stress.
When you realize that there is no past and no future - when you stay in presence - you will be in heaven.

It is not that you will 'go to hell' in the future - when you die - you experience life as hell or you experience life as heaven. If you are suffering life then you are 'in hell'. If life is not suffering then you are 'in heaven'.

There is only life. But humans think there is life and then there is 'me - who has a life'. The 'me' that thinks it has a life is the problem, it is the trouble maker, it is the one that 'thinks' it will die (in the future).
Life cannot die.

edit on 11-11-2012 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

Thanks for the response, I'm just looking for a Christian to fully answer to the question:

What happens to people when they die who have never heard of Jesus Christ.

To reply to your statements - I am content with my life. I do not worry about the past or the future and try to live each day with no regret. Fortunately I am not "suffering" =)

reply to post by Philippines


Just because the physical brain of the incarnate doesn't recollect a "jesus" doesn't mean that the soul doesn't. Therefore they are no better or worse off then everyone else. What they do with they're life is where things change they're fate in present life and future lives.

Originally posted by DeadLights
reply to post by Philippines

 

Just because the physical brain of the incarnate doesn't recollect a "jesus" doesn't mean that the soul doesn't. Therefore they are no better or worse off then everyone else. What they do with they're life is where things change they're fate in present life and future lives.

For everyone who is going to respond to me, that's fine and I welcome it, but please don't expect a response for vague answers like this. If anyone wants to answer my question, please answer the question WITH scripture like I am asking for.

No offense DeadLights, but I have no idea what your point is. How does that relate anything to:

What happens to people who never heard of Jesus Christ after his death/resurrection? Do they go to heaven or hell?

I can try to detail the question more. If you can please quote something Jesus said about this subject that will be the answer I am looking for.