A Loving God who throws folks in hell because they didn't want to be controlled by him?

reply to post by Prezbo369


God doesn't need to ask you to exist. He is giving you a choice, you forget, just because you don't want to bend to authority doesn't make the authority go away. You can also just deny God's existence and hope you're right.

Jesus paid your dues. If you don't want anything to do with God or Jesus, then there is a place for that.

reply to post by milkyway12


You can hang on to beliefs you were taught to believe...
or you can choose to be brave and love THE TRUTH, THE MYSTERY...
The choice is yours.

God is the truth, everything god created is real and actually exists. The ONLY laws that exist are the laws of physics, they are true and real and perfect and unbreakable. Anyone claiming to be the creator of laws is a liar. God governs this universe through the laws which he created and those are the laws of physics, the universe is his kingdom and the laws of physics are the laws which he has created to govern his kingdom.

Obey laws that were created by anyone other than god then you live not in god's kingdom, but in someone else's kingdom. God gave his children, us, the freedom to make their own mistakes and learn from them, that is how he governs his family. God does not forcibly stop his children from making poor choices, he allows them to make their poor choices and hopes that they will learn from their mistakes.

Gods laws are perfect and based upon his infinite knowledge, our laws are do not even exist and are based upon our very limited knowledge. God's kingdom is perfect, it is heaven. The kingdom we've created is imperfect and it is hell and breeds only suffering and pain.

reply to post by windword


Christian belief teaches that God will reconcile with His creation. That's the basis of eschatology.
As for the rest of it, those are good questions; there are different answers. I would argue that at one level, it is necessary to give entities free will if you want them to really love you.

But, I'm not saying I know everything, either. The whole "knowing everything" bit is part of God's job description.

Originally posted by milkyway12
reply to post by Prezbo369

 

God doesn't need to ask you to exist. He is giving you a choice, you forget, just because you don't want to bend to authority doesn't make the authority go away.

What authority? Do you mean like gravity? We built airplanes. Do you mean physical death? We're working on it, and we have saved and extended lives.

What authority are you referring to? Do you mean the disembodied orders and commandments of the God of the Old Testament?

What makes you think that is God? Because the Bible says so?

You can also just deny God's existence and hope you're right.

Before we can agree on god's existence we have to agree on who or what GOD is.

Jesus paid your dues. If you don't want anything to do with God or Jesus, then there is a place for that.

You mean that we can go to hell if we don't want to be a member of the country club, who's dues Jesus pre-paid? Does membership expire?

Originally posted by windword

Originally posted by milkyway12
Jesus paid your dues. If you don't want anything to do with God or Jesus, then there is a place for that.

You mean that we can go to hell if we don't want to be a member of the country club, who's dues Jesus pre-paid? Does membership expire?

That's probably what milkyway12 means. I'm not Christian, I belong to no country club. To live in god's kingdom is to be free, to live in satan's kingdom is to live under false ideology, false belief and false laws, to live in a fantasy world that does not actually exist. Satan's kingdom is the blind leading the blind, you're bound to get hurt. People are not smart enough to create a kingdom, only god has the intelligence required to create a perfect kingdom and he has already created the perfect kingdom, he needs not us to screw it all up with 'laws' that don't actually exist.

Edit: My religion, if you can call it that, has no name. I'm just a guy that did a load of his own research into a variety of subjects. I often use Christian terminology because it's easier since I'm more familiar with those terms, I could just as easily say Dajjal or White Serpant rather than Satan, Allah or Great Spirit rather than God.

For the record he really couldn't care less if you say God, god, Allah, or totally smart dude. He's not a jerk. Oh and I'm pretty sure he's not terribly happy about all the people that do and say crap in his name that really has nothing to do with him.

Originally posted by fleabit

Well, since you can't seem to sort it out that way, turn it around.

Let's say that you live your life as you see fit, ignoring God, badmouthing him, trying to turn people away from him and saying that you want nothing to do with him. You die and, oopsies, it's exactly what Christians said it was going to be -- you're standing before God, ready to answer for your behaviour.

What do you expect him to do, and what's your rationalization for it?

What if you are a simple soul who is good-hearted - you help people, you donate time and food and money, you work hard during your life, but you are not a Christian. You don't really believe in God, but you certainly don't bad mouth him - you believe in live and let live. So as a good person, after death, you get eternally punished because you chose to not worship God?

You are assuming someone who doesn't worship someone is inherently a "bad" person who deserves an eternity of torment. If someone helps people their entire life, they are loved and they love others, they may have had a few sins along their life, nothing major... they seriously deserve an ETERNITY of pain and despair?

So basically you are saying there are only two choices after death. And one can only be gotten if you worship and praise the guy who has the key to the door. If you didn't properly worship him, you are cast into hell. Even if you were a good person. A loving person. A hard working person who actually cared for their human beings on the planet - they get punished horribly for ALL TIME? Hmm... that doesn't really seem quite right for some reason. There is no "choice." It's either you better worship God, or you get eternity in hell. No matter how good of a person you were.

reply to post by fleabit


Only God can see a person's heart-- the essence of who someone truly is. No matter how much human beings tend to levy judgment against their brothers, it will always be a flawed perspective.
Human beings can only opine upon the words and actions of their brothers-- are they bearing good fruit? Sowing compassion, mercy, forgiveness and strength of character? Or are they bearing rotten fruit? Sowing discord, turmoil, confusion, anger, self-loathing, spite and resentment?

Who among us can say what someone who led a seemingly unsavory lifestyle (...albeit subject to each and every individual perspective of whatever that unsavoriness may entail, all of which will respectively differ and vary...) experiences at the moment of their passing from this world to the next? What choices they are given or revelations they experience?

The simple truth is, no human being alive on earth really knows. And even if there were a handful that did, the truth would simply get lost in the myriad of opinionated understandings professed by others on the matter.

Regardless, pontificating on the existence or purpose of hell serves more as a distraction from Truth than any sort of defining standard for it.

reply to post by stupid girl


That is interesting...

But in that case how do you know that your perspective of god (or his word - whatever holy book) isn't flawed?

Originally posted by arpgme
reply to post by stupid girl

 

That is interesting...

But in that case how do you know that your perspective of god (or his word - whatever holy book) isn't flawed?

I don't.

reply to post by arpgme


Yeah, be brave. Good luck.

reply to post by windword


My arguments are biblical. If you don't believe in Yahweh, the Christian God, then there is no point in directing comments to me.

reply to post by milkyway12


There's a lot of thing said, that are biblical.

I don't think that Yahweh IS the Christian God. Yahweh is NOT the father God of Jesus.

See my post, in this thread here: www.abovetopsecret.com...

And along the same lines in a different thread, here: www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by arpgme
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by arpgme
How can you love someone if you can't even accept them for who they are, but instead want to change them? If that is the case you do not love THEM, you love who you WANT them to be.

If this is the case, how could a God claim to be love itself? That would be a lie, since the only love is when people are fulfilling HIS desire to be as HE wants them to be.

I don't quite follow your logic.. He does love us, He gives us the choice to love Him in return. The inverse of that gift is a percentage of people will refuse to love Him back. He gives you complete control over whether you want to follow Him and love Him in return.

Would you rather be a robot than a creature with a free will?

edit on 8-11-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)

So then, there should be no punishment for choosing not to, if he really love US. We are who we are, not who he wants us to be.

Again, not following your logic. Heaven is a place filled with people who love Him, praise and worship Him, and everything is about Him. It would NOT be loving to force people to be there for eternity who don't love Him or desire to do those things.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Again, not following your logic. Heaven is a place filled with people who love Him, praise and worship Him, and everything is about Him. It would NOT be loving to force people to be there for eternity who don't love Him or desire to do those things.

I agree here in that god does not force himself upon us. He affords us the freedom to choose, we can choose to have him as our king or choose to have someone else as our commander in chief. The idea here is that god is infinitely intelligent, the punishment that comes from not choosing god is living your life under the command of an inferior intelligence.

It's not really god that casts you into hell, it's the natural consequences of your choices. The smartest candidate will lead you in the best direction while the lesser of the intelligences doesn't know where to take you. If you choose the lesser intelligence, not god, then you're going to be led in an un-wise direction. God can bring you to heaven, god knows how to bring you peace and happiness, the lesser intelligence really has no idea and will inevitably lead you off that cliff he didn't even know was there.

Originally posted by stupid girl

reply to post by fleabit

 

Only God can see a person's heart-- the essence of who someone truly is. No matter how much human beings tend to levy judgment against their brothers, it will always be a flawed perspective.

Who among us can say what someone who led a seemingly unsavory lifestyle (...albeit subject to each and every individual perspective of whatever that unsavoriness may entail, all of which will respectively differ and vary...) experiences at the moment of their passing from this world to the next? What choices they are given or revelations they experience?

The simple truth is, no human being alive on earth really knows. And even if there were a handful that did, the truth would simply get lost in the myriad of opinionated understandings professed by others on the matter.

Regardless, pontificating on the existence or purpose of hell serves more as a distraction from Truth than any sort of defining standard for it.

When I read, "Only God can see a person's heart-" I was instantly reminded of these verses.
Mark 2:6-9
Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, "Why does this fellow talk like that? He's blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?" Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they were thinking in their hearts, and he said to them, "Why are you reasoning about these things in your hearts? Which is easier: to say to the paralytic, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up, take your mat and walk'?

Alright, so we see here that Jesus, the only begotten son of God, can indeed forgive sins and no hypocrite on earth can change that fact and no righteous person would dispute. Well sure, because unless we forgive others for their sins and do it from the heart, we won't be forgiven by God. It's easier to forgive someone who hurt you or even just annoyed you, than it is to tell a lame person to walk or a blind person to see.
If I could point out the difference between Jesus and the Lawyers it would be that Jesus wanted to forgive, to build up a person both physically and emotionally as well as intellectually, to see them for their potential to being bearing good fruit.
As for what you've said about human beings always having a flawed perspective, I was reminded of this:
2 Kings 6:16-17 "Don't be afraid!" Elisha told him. "For there are more on our side than on theirs!" Then Elisha prayed, "O LORD, open his eyes and let him see!" The LORD opened the young man's eyes, and when he looked up, he saw that the hillside around Elisha was filled with horses and chariots of fire.

Then Elisha prayed, "O LORD, open his eyes and let him see!" The LORD opened the young man's eyes...
Ask and you shall recieve.

You said, "The simple truth is, no human being alive on earth really knows." You can ASK to know!

James 1:5 If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.

I understand that it's not always easy to tell whether or not an individual is coming or going.
John 3:8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."
But for the most part, you will know them by their fruits. When does a fruit become a fruit, doesn't the tree flower first? And since the bible says that wisdom is better than riches ask why people want riches, wouldn't it deal more or less with the perception of self and all that entails?
Proverbs 20:5 The purposes of a man's heart are deep waters, but a man of understanding draws them out.
Are the waters we wade in shallow or deep. It is impossible for us to go down into the depths of water without some seriously high tech diving machines, which people do use by the way, we know more about the surface of the moon than about the seas. But by the grace of God maybe a whale would come up and swallow us, then where would a whale go for three days and nights? Did Jonah KNOW his life would be spared when he told the shipmates that he was the reason that THEY were all in danger? Didn't he believe that God would spare their lives if he walked the plank? When did Jonah decide that he would fulfill his purpose? After he thought he was a gonner!
The truth is not simple.
Proverbs 1:22 "How long, you simpletons, will you insist on being simpleminded? How long will you mockers relish your mocking? How long will you fools hate knowledge?

To simply give up and relish in the unknown is to refuse to find out for yourself whether God be real or not.
Proverbs 1:32 For the waywardness of the simple will kill them, and the complacency of fools will destroy them;
It's one thing to not know, but it's even worse to tell others that they can never know, especially since we need The Way, the words and teaching of Yah.

I think what you failed to mention is that you're talking about a specific definition of God. As people, we have created 1,000,001 different definitions of what "God" is to them. But in the case of the God of the Bible, I really don't think such a God could possibly exist. On one hand, he's supposed too be all forgiving, all merciful and all loving; love itself. On the other hand, he is a vengeful and jealous God at the same time.. somehow. You'd think such a being with such a great mind more than capable of logical thinking wouldn't be so atrocious as to send his "most loved" creation to suffer an eternity. An infinite punishment for a finite crime?
People can say, "Well he made you and everything here so he can do whatever he wants" but that just doesn't make sense. He created everlasting souls so a great many could just be tortured forever over something as stupid as not acknowledging his existence and not doing what he says?
Many people here also said something along the lines of "Well he doesn't send you, he gives you a choice and you choose to go" Well I choose not to, but by his "laws" I'm going there anyways even if I don't want too.
Another thing to look at would be why we even need to ask forgiveness, and why we are born with sin in the first place. As we are talking about the God of the Bible we must go to the beginning. God supposedly created everything, including the talking snake that tempted Eve. God would have known full well that the beings he created were by nature, curious. Curious creatures do curious things, like wonder why God would tell them not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. So it's a given that they would want to know what would happen. So along comes this snake(I guess god couldn't afford to build a fence around the place) and tells them that they would be like God if they eat said fruit. Now that's one heck of a deal, just eat from the tree and become like God? Uhh.... Yes, please! Also keep in mind, Adam and Eve wouldn't know the difference between good and evil(hence the tree which would give them the ability to discern one from the other) and they wouldn't know the meaning of things like bad consequences as everything was perfect back then, nothing bad would happen. So they ate it and then saw they were naked and were cast out of the Garden, practice a butt load of incest and now here we are.
So God created everything, knowing full well the gullibility and curiosity would get the better of the humans which would in turn make the world an imperfect place and we would all get to be born into sin! yay!.
Sounds like a pretty irresponsible god if ya ask me. So given the information that we have about the God of the bible, it seems that he is childish, egotistical, merciless and pretty much just a crappy dude.
People actually think we should worship him? No thanks. He made the boat, threw us on without our permission knowing it will crash into an ice burg and that the only way out would be to come with him on his lifeboat and for us to bask in his glory and give him all the praise cause he saved us from drowning!!! But little did they know that he created this mess in the first place, knowing it would all go sour.

Originally posted by Wonders
Alright, so we see here that Jesus, the only begotten son of God, can indeed forgive sins and no hypocrite on earth can change that fact and no righteous person would dispute.

The consequences of sin are the natural consequences of making a bad choice. Once you stop sinning you will be forgiven, which is to say absent the poor choice there is no natural consequence. Jesus can forgive a persons sin by teaching them why they should not make such poor choices and thus they will have the knowledge required to no longer make such poor choices and no longer receive the consequences of said choice.

You said, "The simple truth is, no human being alive on earth really knows." You can ASK to know!

James 1:5 If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.

The universe's foremost inventor, god, gave you a highly advanced piece of technology capable of answering your questions. We call this the brain. If you've got a question ask god, which is to say use the tool he gave you to search for the answer which exists in the nature he created around you.

Originally posted by milkyway12
reply to post by arpgme

 

Sin cannot exist in his presence. Only the blood of Christ will cover your sins. If you are not saved, you go to hell. Why? Because you were created to exist forever. Everything, except hell was created for his children. If you aren't saved by Christ, then you support satan, evil, and reject Yahweh. So you go to the only place where you could possibly exist. Hell, the place you chose.

So by this logic the entire pre-Columbian world went to hell, since they never heard about Jesus, correct?

Also, does this mean immediately upon the death/rebirth of Christ that everyone around the world went to hell after never hearing of him?

What exact words did Christ say about the souls that will die and never hear of him?

reply to post by Philippines


Christ is this moment of presence and if you come to this moment and forget all other time you will enter the kingdom.
Humans can't see this moment because they are scared of the past and scared of the future - they live in continual fear and desire. They can't see that everything is complete right now - they search to complete themselves because they feel that there is something missing.

Christ (consciousness) is where the light is shining, the illumination, this moment of presence.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by Philippines

 

Christ is this moment of presence and if you come to this moment and forget all other time you will enter the kingdom.
Humans can't see this moment because they are scared of the past and scared of the future - they live in continual fear and desire. They can't see that everything is complete right now - they search to complete themselves because they feel that there is something missing.

Christ (consciousness) is where the light is shining, the illumination, this moment of presence.

What?

First, please answer my questions above, especially to the souls of the pre-Columbian world (and other places) who NEVER heard of Christ?

Doesn't the bible say you only have one life to live?

Second, what bible verses are you referencing to with this: "Christ (consciousness) is where the light is shining, the illumination, this moment of presence. "

reply to post by Philippines


The word 'christ' points to this moment of presence. The word does not matter, it is what it points to that has to be seen and heard - Jesus made the deaf hear and the blind see.