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Obama, Entitlement, Values + YOU!

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posted on Nov, 7 2012 @ 10:23 PM
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Hello,

Let me start by saying that I am a bartender by trade, I have children and have felt the heartaches of our economy as it has ebbed and flowed the last few years. I have been in a bad situations where I struggled with my mortgage, struggled with my car payment and damn near wen't on a mac + cheese and frozen garlic bread diet for a while, stuff got scary.

That said, would I trade those hardships I faced for a more "solid" feeling of security? Knowing that in the case I couldn't for some reason provide for my family that the government would be there to help me out? Should that make me feel better about our domestic or foreign policy? Our state of affairs or how we handle entitlements across the board in the country?

The short answer is no... The long answer is HELL NO. Socialism is born and bread by lazy and inept citizens who are willing to take a hand out because of lack of ambition. While the core concept does in fact help those who are less fortunate and actually need help, the cost of becoming that type of society in my opinion outweighs the good. Over time, this mentality and this "affirmative action" breeds a society who is reluctant to do what it takes because they know at the end of the day the are, can and will sponge from entitlement programs that the government offers.

Entitlements FROM the government would not be a problem if they were coming from the government. If that were the case, they would be GREAT! The simple fact is, they are not. They come from John and Jane Doe tax payer and John and Jane are forced to pay more every year for other peoples fu%$ ups. Don't have a job or any money? No problem, have a couple kids and the "State" = "taxpayers" will give you money so your "Kids" =bastards don't starve.

You can not have entitlement programs without opposition for the simple reason that in a free democratic society you can not give something to somebody else if you are the government without FIRST TAKING IT from somebody else. That is cold hard fact and unfortunately that money does not usually come from where it should.... Fortune 500 companies, those with huge government contracts or those who are the richest in the world. Unfortunately, it comes from low to middle class families and they are told that not agreeing with there taxation makes them "american" and heartless.

Anyone that disagrees with this post, do me one simple favor. Please, I beg of you to research how much taxes General Electric has paid in the last three years as compared to the middle income bracket in America. That being 76k to 42k per household. Try to argue that if you wan't too.

The government should not have any extra money, they should not be able to run anything or subsidize any programs because those things were not afforded to our government by our founding fathers or documention and they were not for a damn good reason and that reason is because tyranny starts with the economy and if they can control that completely, they control everything.

Enjoy your socialist president for another four years. He has already done irreparable harm to this country and I shudder to think where we will all be at the end of this "term".




posted on Nov, 7 2012 @ 10:43 PM
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First I should probably make sure that you understand where you are wrong, the money does not come from lower class families because they don't pay taxes, they get it all back at the beginning of next year. Sure, they pay consumption taxes, but everyone who consumes does. Secondly, you're correct about one thing; the rich probably aren't paying as much as the upper middle class and we should do something to change that crap. But it doesn't end there, more money goes towards supporting and bailing out the big corporations with ultra rich executives and ensures that they will be well compensated for their "hard work" than goes towards the poor in America. Why is it that you people don't complain about that as much as you do about your fellow Americans, most of which do work whether you like it or not, they just aren't being paid very much for that work.

But yeah, "socialism" and "capitalism" are both old news and neither seem to work very well so maybe it's time to make something else and try it... Besides, most of you people screaming "socialist" don't even know what the hell socialism even is or you would know that it is not what we have in America and you people screaming "capitalism" don't even know what the hell capitalism is or you would know that it is not what we have in America. Stop fighting amongst each other and fight the people who put us in this mess!

The election is over and one of the two corporate servants got the spot, not a whole lot we can do about it. Can we just put the bickering behind us and stop being a bunch of school children of America's piss poor education system and act like civilized adults who actually want to make progress rather than whine about everything. Oh wait, I'm sorry, that's not the Murican way...
edit on 7-11-2012 by Anundeniabletruth because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 7 2012 @ 10:52 PM
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Originally posted by Anundeniabletruth
First I should probably make sure that you understand where you are wrong, the money does not come from lower class families because they don't pay taxes, they get it all back at the beginning of next year. Sure, they pay consumption taxes, but everyone who consumes does. Secondly, you're correct about one thing; the rich probably aren't paying as much as the upper middle class and we should do something to change that crap. But it doesn't end there, more money goes towards supporting and bailing out the big corporations with ultra rich executives and ensures that they will be well compensated for their "hard work" than goes towards the poor in America. Why is that you people don't complain about that as much as you do about your fellow Americans, most of which do work whether you like it or not, they just aren't being paid very much for that work.

But yeah, "socialism" and "capitalism" are both old news and neither seem to work very well so maybe it's time to make something else and try it... Besides, most of you people screaming "socialist" don't even know what the hell socialism even is or you would know that it is not what we have in America and you people screaming "capitalism" don't even know what the hell capitalism is or you would know that it is not what we have in America. Stop fighting amongst each other and fight the people who put us in this mess!

The election is over and one of the two corporate servants got the spot, not a whole lot we can do about it. Can we just put the bickering behind us and stop being a bunch of school children of America's piss poor education system and act like civilized adults who actually want to make progress rather than whine about everything. Oh wait, I'm sorry, that's not the Murican way...


Middle class families get it all back you say? Thats a riot! I belong to a middle class family and we are far far away from getting anything back.

Consumption tax you say? Hmmmmmm, ok, I can deal with paying tax for consumption but how about taxes to live? I pay off my mortgage and I still pay property tax till I die or I can't pay then they just take my property, thats NOT ownership, that IS renting from the U.S. government or if you like, your life long landlord. That money goes to education you say? Roflmao, no it doesn't. Prove it does.

Hmmmm, our tax money goes to bailing out corporations? Who voted to do that? Was there a vote? Why does the government have the money to do something like this? The government should be broke just attending to the needs of citizens......... How did they get the money to bail out major U.S. corporations? Where does that come from?

I know what socialism is and I know why it doesn't work. The government should have just enough money to keep it from shutting down from operating the basic functions it's citizens NEED to maintain a society. Too much belly fat, too much excess, too much greed has made "Jack" a lazy boy.

Hush now......



posted on Nov, 7 2012 @ 10:59 PM
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If you can afford a home mortgage on bartending they are paying you way too much...in fact in this day and age I don't think I have known a singel bartender or waitress that's had a house.
Do you own the bar?



posted on Nov, 7 2012 @ 11:06 PM
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Originally posted by ldyserenity
If you can afford a home mortgage on bartending they are paying you way too much...in fact in this day and age I don't think I have known a singel bartender or waitress that's had a house.
Do you own the bar?


Lol, I guess you don't know many bartenders. Perhaps you have a friend that works for TGI Friday's or something? Do you base your assumptions from that? I work in downtown Chicago, I make 250.00 to 500.00 per shift and average about 6k per month. My girlfriend is a manger for Chase and has worked for the company for 7 years and makes 59k per year.

Btw, the bar doesn't pay you anything, you get 4.85 per hour in this state...... People pay you so nobody is really paying you too much as you stated. And I think you meant..... bartender or SERVER, not waitress. thanks! =)



posted on Nov, 7 2012 @ 11:11 PM
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reply to post by Helious
 


Yeah I known plenty servers/bartenders in NJ they pay $2.03/hr (when I applied) and they're lucky to take $250 home at the end of the week in one of the highest priced states on the planet. That's why I was wondering My friend worked three jobs just to pay her bills which didn't include mortgage because her family gave her her home, and they pay the taxes or did that was just for her electric/phone/water garbage etc bills...I'm moving to Chicago down here in Fl it's stil 2.45 and hour for server and the tips are emaciated (also know a person who serves here). That's why I asked but two incomes helps too. I would assume.



posted on Nov, 7 2012 @ 11:14 PM
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Originally posted by ldyserenity
reply to post by Helious
 


Yeah I known plenty servers/bartenders in NJ they pay $2.03/hr (when I applied) and they're lucky to take $250 home at the end of the week in one of the highest priced states on the planet. That's why I was wondering My friend worked three jobs just to pay her bills which didn't include mortgage because her family gave her her home, and they pay the taxes or did that was just for her electric/phone/water garbage etc bills...I'm moving to Chicago down here in Fl it's stil 2.45 and hour for server and the tips are emaciated (also know a person who serves here). That's why I asked but two incomes helps too. I would assume.


They were doing something wrong then. 10 years ago, my first wife and I applied and got hired to the Cheesecake Factory and we worked between 48 to 52 hours a week and made over 1k a piece every week. I swear to God on my kids life that's the truth and that was 10 YEARS AGO! I think we were paying 460.00 a month in rent lol, we traveled all around the world and thought we were rich for a few years rofl.



posted on Nov, 7 2012 @ 11:17 PM
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reply to post by Helious
 


Really?

Did you even read my side? I'm sorry, can you even read? It's okay, my father is also illiterate so I understand. I do not appreciate being attacked on claims that I never made. I never, and please allow me to repeat myself, NEVER said that middle class families "get it all back." I said lower class, there is a difference.

I never said anything about those other taxes because I disagree with many of them but thanks for putting words in my mouth. And when did I ever say the money goes to education? That's right, if you actually read what I said you will see that I never made such claims. But since we are on the topic of education allow me to further elaborate on the claim that I did make about the subject. It is a piss poor system that was destined to fail and does little to teach problem solving skills to the majority of our society. You are proof of that, seeing how you clearly do not possess the ability to properly comprehend what you read, or you're too lazy to actually read something before complaining about it, I seem to recall a comment about laziness.

Yes, a portion of our tax money must be going towards bailing out corporations if the only money the government is supposed to have is that which it obtains via taxes. I do not recall a vote, or at least I wasn't given a chance to cast one. The government doesn't have the money to do it but that doesn't stop it from doing so. Why? Because Americans are too damn busy fighting with each other to keep their government in check and stop them from committing crimes and screwing them, it's exactly what they want and you're all dumb enough to give it to them. That money comes from all of us in one way or another.

You are a perfect example of our problem. You childishly attack me for pointing out flaws because you know them to be true. I keep trying to tell everyone this and nobody wants to listen; there is indeed a big problem and we truly need to do something to solve it but that cannot and will not be done if we cant put aside petty differences, seek true knowledge, and work together as whole that is not divided over lies they want us to believe and America keeps telling me that they like it how it is and would prefer it to be much worse by continuing to whine about it and fight amongst each other rather than acting like they have a brain in their head. Zombie apocalypse anyone?



posted on Nov, 7 2012 @ 11:18 PM
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reply to post by Helious
 


Because of where you're located I assume...It's got to be I know people in NJ are cheap and the old folks here in florida are big cheapskates, I am betting a more progressive people are living there in Chicago. I think it depends on the area My business was retail I made nothing ever over minimum wage at NJ I worked home depot in PA and was paid well above min wage. I think all these things must differ from state to state. I am living in the wrong area!



posted on Nov, 7 2012 @ 11:20 PM
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Love the post but the reality is .. the country is lost im afraid. Too many dumb people thinking that they were part of Obama winning.

Im a single, white father and I recently applied for foodstamps. I was only awarded $16 after proving my income/bills/rent/child care costs. There are no more fathers rights anymore. Since I don't have a vagina and vote liberal with 10 kids.. I don't get jack, and I work my ass off for my son and myself.
edit on 7-11-2012 by LeoStarchild because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 7 2012 @ 11:33 PM
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reply to post by Anundeniabletruth
 





Did you even read my side? I'm sorry, can you even read? It's okay, my father is also illiterate so I understand.


I can read, that sounds like a personal attack and while I'm talking, I'm sorry about your fathers learning difficulties. That is..... Unfortunate.




I do not appreciate being attacked on claims that I never made. I never, and please allow me to repeat myself, NEVER said that middle class families "get it all back." I said lower class, there is a difference.


Middle class has become lower class since 2008 and it does not matter if you say middle or lower, neither one of them get anything back unless you INCLUDE ENTITLEMENT programs. Are you including those?




I never said anything about those other taxes because I disagree with many of them but thanks for putting words in my mouth. And when did I ever say the money goes to education? That's right, if you actually read what I said you will see that I never made such claims. But since we are on the topic of education allow me to further elaborate on the claim that I did make about the subject. It is a piss poor system that was destined to fail and does little to teach problem solving skills to the majority of our society. You are proof of that, seeing how you clearly do not possess the ability to properly comprehend what you read, or you're too lazy to actually read something before complaining about it, I seem to recall a comment about laziness.


You are half right about some of things you said in this paragraph but it is blatantly obvious you don't even know why you are right or for that matter wrong because you resort to personal attacks which is a clear sign you don't have the knowledge to defend a valid point. It's ok though bro, I already knew that!




Yes, a portion of our tax money must be going towards bailing out corporations if the only money the government is supposed to have is that which it obtains via taxes. I do not recall a vote, or at least I wasn't given a chance to cast one. The government doesn't have the money to do it but that doesn't stop it from doing so. Why? Because Americans are too damn busy fighting with each other to keep their government in check and stop them from committing crimes and screwing them, it's exactly what they want and you're all dumb enough to give it to them. That money comes from all of us in one way or another.


What? Do you have any idea where our tax money is going? Do you understand the allotment of property tax, sales tax, state tax and federal tax? The short answer is no, you don't, you don't have any clue or knowledge of such things so arguing about the subject is kind of hollow, is it not?




You are a perfect example of our problem. You childishly attack me for pointing out flaws because you know them to be true. I keep trying to tell everyone this and nobody wants to listen; there is indeed a big problem and we truly need to do something to solve it but that cannot and will not be done if we cant put aside petty differences, seek true knowledge, and work together as whole that is not divided over lies they want us to believe and America keeps telling me that they like it how it is and would prefer it to be much worse by continuing to whine about it and fight amongst each other rather than acting like they have a brain in their head. Zombie apocalypse anyone?


Your complete lack of knowledge regarding our legal system, our tax system, our government and how it affects the majority of people in the country is offensive and shocking. This paragraph pretty much frames all of the problems we have in the country and I can not thank you enough for stopping in and highlighting that fact so clearly. [SNIP] keep thinking everyone with a valid thought that actually has facts about the political agenda is making a personal assault on you and your "beliefs".
edit on 8-11-2012 by Gemwolf because: Removed drug reference



posted on Nov, 7 2012 @ 11:48 PM
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Originally posted by Helious



Your complete lack of knowledge regarding our legal system, our tax system, our government and how it affects the majority of people in the country is offensive and shocking.


Oh look, an appeal to ambiguity, a Sweeping generalization, and a Glittering generalization all in one!

Plus, your're acting like a typical obfiscator :


2. Become incredulous and indignant. Avoid discussing key issues and instead focus on side issues which can be used show the topic as being critical of some otherwise sacrosanct group or theme. This is also known as the 'How dare you!' gambit.


www.whale.to...

We can all be over-analytical.



Fallacy of accident or sweeping generalization

Fallacy of accident or sweeping generalization: a generalization that disregards exceptions. Example Argument: Cutting people is a crime. Surgeons cut people, therefore, surgeons are criminals. Problem: Cutting people is not a crime in certain situations. Argument: It is illegal for a stranger to enter someone's home uninvited. Firefighters enter people's homes uninvited, therefore firefighters are breaking the law. Problem: The exception does not break nor define the rule; a dicto simpliciter ad dictum secundum quid (where an accountable exception is ignored).


en.wikipedia.org...


Glittering generalities (also called glowing generalities) are emotionally appealing words so closely associated with highly-valued concepts and beliefs that they carry conviction without supporting information or reason. Such highly-valued concepts attract general approval and acclaim. Their appeal is to emotions such as love of country and home, and desire for peace, freedom, glory, and honor. They ask for approval without examination of the reason. They are typically used by politicians and propagandists.


en.wikipedia.org...



posted on Nov, 8 2012 @ 12:03 AM
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reply to post by Northwarden
 


OH! A random Wikipedia hero who would rather provide links to useless information than offer up some meat off his own bone for fear of being exposed because linking to semi irrelevant information that is not his own is how he handles internet forums!
edit on 8-11-2012 by Helious because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 8 2012 @ 12:09 AM
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reply to post by Helious
 


Why don't you educate yourself and then you might feel a little more optimistic about this presidency?

A couple quick economic lessons and mistakes of the past should help you to see we are finally headed back in the right direction.

Economy in the Reagan Era

Bill Moyers explores how America’s vast inequality didn’t just happen, it’s been politically engineered.


You are despondent because you don't know what socialist is. It's your Paul Ryan Ann Rand agenda. It is the Bush family connections to Nazi's. It is not the same man American White Supremacist, Nazi and socialist party s despise. People are not trying to get entitlements and they would not need them if the wealthy would give them their taxes back.


edit on 8-11-2012 by newcovenant because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 8 2012 @ 12:12 AM
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Don't post your Wikipedia links, it's embarrassing. If you want to post a lucid thought about the situation I have presented in my OP then please do so using your OWN opinion and words and in doing, create a real debate forum where I can defend my position and opinion based on YOUR position and opinion and not on contrived, convoluted and misplaced "facts" that are rampant on MSM sites such as Wikipedia.



posted on Nov, 8 2012 @ 12:12 AM
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Originally posted by Helious
reply to post by Northwarden
 


OH! A random Wikipedia hero who would rather provide links to useless information than offer up some meat off his own bone for fear of being exposed because linking to semi irrelevant information that is not his own is how he handles internet forums!
edit on 8-11-2012 by Helious because: (no reason given)



Oh you should be happy anyone answers your ridiculous rant in the first place.
If you have corrections to the Wikipedia pages you know you are free to make them rather than claim they are all lies?



posted on Nov, 8 2012 @ 12:15 AM
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reply to post by newcovenant
 


I am not a Republican so you can just stop playing that card right now. The fed it self has estimated a complete recession at 99%.

Your perception of my intent couldn't be more wrong and just serves to prove my point in that there are way too many people who think there is an actual difference between Mitt and Obama. The country is already governed by socialism, that is not arguable, it is also governed by corporatism and lobbyist. Those are the forces that drive this country. Period.



posted on Nov, 8 2012 @ 12:18 AM
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Well, I can only comment on what I know then, without links, just for you.

I will venture that there is nothing more than emotional hubris on this point, pertaining to peoples general wealth, their means to support themselves projecting into their means and willingness to provide charity for others. I think you possibly launched a good dose of ambition into some. I just have to ask you one question. Where does it become a personal matter who the state supports, and is that some edifying source of hatred for you? When did this kind of nonsense creep into the social concience, that the state should not set a good example, and one of those examples is charity.

I know how low wages are in USA, so you will blast the government for decent social programs over their military spending? There was not one mention of what proportion of the pie these social programs actually cost in your Op, which is pittance compared to your military spending. Does this not factor in to temper everything?



posted on Nov, 8 2012 @ 12:37 AM
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reply to post by Helious
 


I love you man, I really do. I would just like to be a man here and apologize for the personal attack, I should not have went there, it was very immature of me. Much like everyone else, I just get so frustrated when people put words in my mouth, I do not need others to speak for me.

Do you consider things like EIC and the other child tax credit to be entitlement programs? Everyone that I have ever known who has children has and considers themselves to be "middle class" has usually gotten back more than they put into the system because of such programs. That's why I made the claim that I did. I'm sorry but as someone who has never been "middle class" I can and do see a clear difference between the two. I consider Lower class to be people who live under the poverty line and middle class to be those who earn over $5,000 more than that magic line. The working poor who have children aren't paying those taxes because they get it all back, I'm not wrong. EVERYONE, middle class and lower class took a hard hit in 08. I believe the middle class took the hardest hit but for those who are currently earning an income, middle class is not lower class, it's still middle class, just a weaker middle class. Welcome to being poor, the PBR is in the WalMart cooler bud!

It isn't blatantly obvious that I lack the knowledge to defend my argument because of the personal attacks. It's only obvious that I have issues with controlling my anger, I admit and apologize for that. I have a tendency to be a bit "passionate" about my opinions, if you will. I'm sure you can understand that. Honestly, there probably shouldn't be any defense needed for the points I've been trying to make, just go outside or use the internet and you'll see that people are far too busy doing as we are currently, rather than making any real effort to get anything done. As far as the piss poor education system in America is concerned, it would be very easy to provide sources but I do not have the time to do so at the moment. Don't worry though, I am currently in the process of working on something about that and might post it here on ATS for everyone to discuss.

I'm pretty sure that if I lacked the ability to properly present a valid defense that I would not have made an A in a college argument and debate class as a student who often argues against both conservatives and liberals with a very strict, very liberal professor. So you have failed to offend me with that statement. Try harder next time.


I am not a politician and do not pretend to be. I'm just the offspring of an illiterate man and a crazy woman, who the majority of society believes does not belong in that area. I don't understand most of those taxes as much as I believe I should because I don't own anything and do not have to pay most of them. I do however have a basic understanding of them. I know that it is not all going to those damn poor people. If it is, where's my nice car? Where's my house? Oh yeah, that's right, I don't own anything because there ain't no damn jobs hiring people without first going through that whole piss poor education system thingy.

The one thing I do know is that the fancy executives have the nice home and car and the government has given them a lot of money so that their business doesn't fail since they can't seem to run it properly and nobody else has the ability to pick up where they left off if they do happen to fail due to people not running them correctly. My eyes might be bad but I'm not blind just yet...

You never said that you wanted to have a debate over the things of which you believe I have no knowledge of. Hell, I agree with your opinion on the big businesses, they're screwing all of us and getting by with it. I simply pointed out parts where I believe you are wrong and you tried to turn it into a circle jerk. While it is indeed very true that I am a victim of our piss poor education system which I believe is sorely obvious to anyone who has to witness my poor writing skills, "complete lack of knowledge regarding our legal system, our tax system, our government and how it affects the majority of people in the country" isn't exactly true. Otherwise I find it incredibly difficult to see how I as the offspring of uneducated poor parents, made As in two college U.S. history courses, a political science class, two economics classes, a sociology class, a psychology class, and a philosophy class; all subjects of which I believe are relevant to such knowledge.

The only thing you seem to want to do is argue rather than step up and attempt a legitimate discussion, so I am done here. I love how you had to edit that little drug reference though. Real responsible of you to make such a comment in the first place buddy. Have fun with your racetrack, I have work to do.


edit on 8-11-2012 by Anundeniabletruth because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 8 2012 @ 01:02 AM
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This topic is more sensitive than some peoples patience will allow, I notice a lot of my thinking concerns of late in regards to state support (and their ability to spread a social net for citizens as part of their ongoing caring for citizenry) has been noting the prison industry still increasing. It's a natural progression for x many people to end up in jail, but x can increase a lot when the bottlenecks are opened and for every superjail constructed. Since it's a business, they want them running at full capacity. This, again, isn't the fault of the social programs which help people, amirite?

Criminalizing the poor: from welfare to cellfare
Published: 24 February, 2012, 01:05


The relationship between the sudden but substantial growth in containment justified through the rhetoric of social dishonor and emergence of workfare as a condition of federal subsidy represents an intra-State struggle over its basic social function. Simply asked, what is the role of the State? And further, what ought to be the role of the State? (Should the role of the State, as neoliberals contend, be limited to safeguarding the so-called “free market” and protecting contracts???) The double criminalization of poverty marked by 1) reducing public aid to low income people of color (disproportionately) and 2) locking them up (disproportionately) for being poor is evidence that the State is trying to re-architecting itself on our watch. Further, the double criminalization of poverty serves an important ideological function in that it allows the corporate class to attribute widespread unemployment and poverty to personal moral depravity instead of material deprivation. The poor are not depraved; they’re deprived of the basic social resources to secure a dignified standard of living. In the end, the survival of any “criminal State” hinges on its ability to individualize criminality so as to divert attention from its complicitous role in its production.


rt.com...



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