Obama Wins - Layoffs Starting

reply to post by longlostbrother

Originally posted by longlostbrother
Put another way, the strongest economy in Europe is Germany, who has public funded education and enviable publicly funded healthcare. They also have strict regulations and worker protections.

And yet, they thrive.

A country that wants to work can thrive no matter the protections workers have.

Which is it? Are they thriving, or are they hurting?

Originally posted by macman
reply to post by longlostbrother

 

Originally posted by longlostbrother
Put another way, the strongest economy in Europe is Germany, who has public funded education and enviable publicly funded healthcare. They also have strict regulations and worker protections.

And yet, they thrive.

A country that wants to work can thrive no matter the protections workers have.

Which is it? Are they thriving, or are they hurting?

Germany is thriving relative to the rest of the Eurozone, just like the US is thriving compared to Cuba.

Germany is hurting due to the Eurozone crisis, just like the US is hurting due to the financial downturn.

Weak-minded people need black and white answers; reality is much more grey.

Originally posted by longlostbrother

Originally posted by NavyDoc
reply to post by longlostbrother

 

Not complete nonsense.
German Economy falling off a cliff.

Sorry, but again, you're just arguing with yourself.

I never said the German economy wasn't hurting; it obviously is.

What I said was that it's not because of high wages. Back when all the world's economies were booming, Germany was booming, with high wages and worker protections.

The main drag on the German economy is the Eurozone crisis, which again, wasn't brought on by high wages and safe workplaces.

I know your ideology makes you predisposed to blame the deisre of workers to earn a fare wage and be safe as some sort of anti-business position, but in fact many economies have thrived while at the same time protecting workers and paying them a fair wage.

Trying to beat China in a race to the bottom of wages and protection isn't a plan. And you know that. Which is why you have to keep inventing non-existent points to argue with.

I don't see anyone blaming that only high wages damage an economy, but rather they can be harmful if the cost of labor is higher than the value the labor produces.

I also know your ideology makes you predisposed to blame the business and predisposed to think the only obligation of business is to provide a wage that you think high enough, but wages that are higher than the value of the goods and services they produce hurt economies. Many, many economies have fallen into this trap. You can putter alng for a while, but eventually the house of cards falls down: look to Europe, especially Greece.

The facts are out there and you keep inventing non-existent points to support your position.

reply to post by macman


Germany is bankrolling much of Europe. Incidentally, it is capable of doing so because it takes advantage of the European Union free trade zone, with its exports providing some decent cash flow. It's a symbiosis of sorts.

For decades, Germany has been the major funding sponsor for the European High Energy Physics Center (CERN), and that's some non-trivial money right there. Come on, they always have been rich, regardless of their unions, healthcare and free higher education, which rocks by the way, along with German science. Their highways are second to none. Really, we have nothing on Germany. Beer maybe? Nuh.

Originally posted by NavyDoc
I don't see anyone blaming that only high wages damage an economy, but rather they can be harmful if the cost of labor is higher than the value the labor produces.

A German CEO makes only one third of that his/her US counterpart does. I urge you to meditate on that fact.

Funny how a lot of people like to bash unions, but top management compensation is somehow off limits. Quite stupid, IMHO.

Originally posted by buddhasystem

Originally posted by NavyDoc
I don't see anyone blaming that only high wages damage an economy, but rather they can be harmful if the cost of labor is higher than the value the labor produces.

A German CEO makes only one third of that his/her US counterpart does. I urge you to meditate on that fact.

Funny how a lot of people like to bash unions, but top management compensation is somehow off limits. Quite stupid, IMHO.

Actually, I feel the same way about CEO pay. Any pay that any employee of a company recieves should be based on the value they impart to the company by the shareholders (owners.)

Originally posted by NavyDoc

Originally posted by buddhasystem

Originally posted by NavyDoc
I don't see anyone blaming that only high wages damage an economy, but rather they can be harmful if the cost of labor is higher than the value the labor produces.

A German CEO makes only one third of that his/her US counterpart does. I urge you to meditate on that fact.

Funny how a lot of people like to bash unions, but top management compensation is somehow off limits. Quite stupid, IMHO.

Actually, I feel the same way about CEO pay. Any pay that any employee of a company recieves should be based on the value they impart to the company by the shareholders (owners.)

Acknowledged.

reply to post by longlostbrother


Oh, so you get to play both sides of the sword.


So, as they thrive, they are hurting.

One of these things is not like the other, one of these things are not the same.


Did you go to the same spin school as Jay Carney?

Getting back to the OP, the people who decide whether to lay off employees or not, have every right to make decisions to improve the performance of their companies. In fact, if they don't, then they are guilty of dereliction of duty. Obama and the Democratic left have no understanding of how businesses operate, and neither do the left-wing know-it-alls that criticize these layoffs..
Furthermore, maybe if the clowns that love Obama so much get laid off, they may rethink what he is really about. Welfare only goes so far, and so do unemployment checks. In addition, at some point, failure to maintain profitability of businesses will destroy virtually every job in this country. Oh wait, I forgot, Obama and the left think that they can just print monopoly money. Problem is that no other country will accept the funny money. Obama should have taken some economics courses.
Am I angry? You're darned right, I am, because the people that voted for Obama, and Obama's thugs have destroyed this country. Young people voted for him because they, for the most part, have no understanding of economics, and think that they can just live in their parents' basements. Guess what. You can't. because it's time you actually go out and work for a living.

Originally posted by ProfEmeritus
Obama and the Democratic left have no understanding of how businesses operate, and neither do the left-wing know-it-alls that criticize these layoffs.

I checked the list of Obama's biggest donors in that campaign, and I see among others:

Google
IBM
Microsoft
Apple
Comcast
Deloitte

I think you look pretty silly when you state that leaders of these entities have no understanding of how businesses operate. Seriously.

Obama's thugs have destroyed this country.

That's a pretty distilled case of paranoia.

Originally posted by jr429

Originally posted by sensibleSenseless
reply to post by NavyDoc

 

Yes, I agree.

But if the region's cost of living is not met, you won't have surviving labour.

Hence, the spiral towards slavery... where everyone is a slave to lowering the cost of labour and materials, but not sacrificing the concept that the price of labour is justified by the survival of the human race. Even the rich are labourers in corporations... their abilities to profit will suffer from running a tight ship, to the point that those who historically have wealth will own the governments - and their competitiveness requirements foisted as rules that the slaves should live by.

We can live like rats (if that is survivable) and the uber-rich are justified in tightening the noose and cheating.

The survival of the few at the expense of the many... unfair trade practices, unfair laws, unfair everything - bend over.

Your wrong. Have you ever been to China? Ever been to a poor village in China? Wages (and money) essentially boils down to what someone else is willing to do for you. Yes their wages are low ($100/month) but so are all their costs - food, construction, etc. The only thing that isn't cheap is energy (oil). You can get a $0.25 meal, a hotel room can be 20rmb ($3), etc. Yes the "quality" by western mass-production standards is inferior, but it's hardly "living like rats". What's more criminal are the labor unions artificially instituting a price floor for labor so Joe, Bob, and John can have jobs but Bill and George are S.O.L. Study some economics, it'll enlighten you.

Wage/Compensation contracts have existed from time immemorial. They are there to protect employers as well as workers. Hollywood actors and actresses use it all the time.

What I am against is exploitation. People point to exploitation of unions - which I don't advocate. But there is exploitation by corporations as well, which is what many are advocating should be ignored.

If you sit back and relax and don't negotiate, you will get all kinds of employers that practice unfair practices, because the chase is on for money as opposed to keeping you alive or your health respected. Take the labour that worked in dark coal mines, and the child labour.

A lot of the Chinese workers are exploited heavily, just like you will be. Having minimum standards of employment or not allowing others to exploit you abusively, is a great thing to have. This is about justice and fair practices. Have you seen the water these poor people are forced to live on as a result of large multi-national waste dumping? You don't have money, you don't have a say in anything. Have your rights to have children taken away as well. Maybe the planet's people need to die based on their ability to generate money and corruption in their favour and locked networks of power.

Negotiate your justice away if you please and be worth whatever one of those employers are willing to pay, even if it has no proportionality to the product that you produce - and what that is worth in the market place. It will always be an employer's decision to abuse you as opposed to a mutual/educated understanding of what the market can handle.

I've seen poor villages in India which are equivalents. They can get killed if they are found useless to some of the bigger concerns. They have their rights handed to them by people who "decide" with monopoly money - the ownership of their towns are destroyed in favour of big businesses.

Study the economics of "might is right", if it will educate you then.

But of course, you will die if you don't try to match the Chinese, and keep a large number of expendable slaves on hand.

As soon as you start getting paid lower salaries to match the Chinese, real-estate will come down in price to match your ability to pay - (what with all the bankruptcies) - and your banks will go belly up. I'm sure they're happy to force you to match Chinese pay as well.

Originally posted by longlostbrother

"Artificial price floor" aka a minimum wage at which you can hire employees, yes, I understand that, and it's right. Even china has a minimum wage.

And of course the same mind that brought us the idea that we should offer rewer worker protections than China also brings us the, "I owned a German car which broke down a lot ergo all German manufacturing is shoddy".

Mercedes was specifically used previously as an example of superior German manufacturing. I am refuting this. I can get into it more about how my BMW M6 blew its SMG tranny at 40,000 miles but I won't.

Originally posted by longlostbrother

The fact is that German manufacturing makes money hand over fist, while at the same time protecting it's workers and paying them proper wages.

That's a fact you can't refute, so you just ignore it.

Wrong. German manufacturing has seen years of earnings erosion. Workers are getting wages cut. Corporate profitability has remained flat because of a rotation of manufacturing INTO CHINA TO TAP CHINESE MARKETS. Volkswagen. It's not a fact just because you want it to be true.

Originally posted by longlostbrother
As for, "some non-union jobs are very safe" - strawman - I never said they weren't. But the fact is that UNIONS organised because of abuse by owners, not in a vacuum. If owners had done a better job of paying and protecting workers, instead of, as you suggest, trying to make them live in worse conditions than china currently has, their wouldn't be unions...

Unions are the proof of your misunderstanding of history and naivete about the owner/worker relationship.

Applying early 20th century philosophy to the 21st century business environment shows me that you are hopelessly clueless about the reality of unionization and its predatory nature on the modern economy.

Originally posted by longlostbrother

Germany owes its robust economy of recent years in part to the success of its manufacturing sector, from basic materials to tools on the factory floor.

The reason Germany has remained competitive against cheaper manufacturers in Asia and elsewhere is that it has made good use of new technology.

In the Global Competitiveness Index, Germany scores higher than the U.S. on several measures, including the quality of its institutions and infrastructure.

www.scientificamerican.com...

What's hurting German manufacturing is instability in the Euro, not the wages it pays employees:

www.irishtimes.com...

To be sure, manufacturing is declining EVERYWHERE except China, but emulating China is NOT a course anyone in the US wants to take, except a few insane people.

WRONG on both counts. Hilariously wrong actually.

1. "Euro Instability" - Due to the euro zone crisis, the euro has gradually weakened against several major currencies. A weaker currency MAKES EXPORTS MORE ATTRACTIVE - currency instability is NOT the cause of german manufacturing weakness. Volatility is also an invalid an argument because all the major manufacturers employ currency hedges. And finally the CAUSE of the Euro zone crisis is high worker compensation / protection, especially entitlements such as pensions causing the vast majority of industries in Europe to be unsustainable (EADs, Saab come to mind).

2. "Technology" in manufacturing can offset high wages - it sounds good when espoused by the liberal media, but reality is very different. You probably have never toured automotive manufacturing facilities - I have. By technology this typically means robots to replace workers. Check out any of the high volume OEM plants in the states - very robotic centric. The only plants that are still largely based on manual labor are usually reserved for high end exotics or low production vehicles. The labor intensive components on almost all automotive components have already been outsourced to China. Engine blocks, engine internals, turbochargers, transmission casings, gears, etc. - it's all made in China, with *maybe* final assembly, QC, etc. done at the location of assembly either Germany, Japan, or USA.

I used to live in Silicon valley, the epitome of high technology in the United States. Do you know why these days 60% of every single job either software or hardware (except defense and med devices) is outsourced to either India or China? Because no company can survive in a globally competitive environment by paying high wages. Do you know why American Airlines, GM, and other legacy companies went bankrupt or are on the verge of bankruptcy? Because in a globally competitive environment they cannot afford to pay high compensation (mostly entitlements). Do you know why half the municipalities in California are 2 or 3 debt rollovers away from default? Because they cannot afford to pay the unionized wages of Police and Fire, who can make upwards of $150k.

Your socialist fantasy is great - I wish everyone worked 30 hours/week, drove ferraris, and drank 30yr scotch everyday. But the first rule of economics is scarcity. And any one that says otherwise doesn't understand basic economics.

Originally posted by sensibleSenseless

A lot of the Chinese workers are exploited heavily, just like you will be. Having minimum standards of employment or not allowing others to exploit you abusively, is a great thing to have. This is about justice and fair practices. Have you seen the water these poor people are forced to live on as a result of large multi-national waste dumping? You don't have money, you don't have a say in anything. Have your rights to have children taken away as well. Maybe the planet's people need to die based on their ability to generate money and corruption in their favour and locked networks of power.

Exploitation is a relative term - a lot of westerners don't understand it because they haven't felt true misery before. I go to China on business at least 3 times a year, and have been since the 90's. A lot of these laborers that you see on the assembly lines come from villages that were literally composed of dirt huts. In their village, they get to eat meat maybe twice a year, once on CNY, once during the autumn festival. They probably just got electricity recently, it was only recent few years that brownouts were not happening in major cities. Just 20 years ago, a lot have endured real hardship, like Africa children of hope type stuff. They journey from their villages and pray they are allowed to work either legally or illegal in a major city - you hit the jackpot if you can get the rights to live/work in Shenzhen, Shanghai, Beijing, but any major city will do. They leave their families behind to go work in a city they don't know. When they find a job they want to work as many hours as possible - if the factory would let them work 100 hour weeks they would do it happily. There main motivation is to send money home to their families - families that they get to see only a few times a year. While they are at work, they don't give a crap, they just want to make as much money as possible, spend as little as possible, I've seen fights break out because workers feel like they are not getting enough work, not because they are working too much. And the problem is there are so much unskilled labor that it is exceptionally easy to hire and fire. One day you don't show up, someone else will happily take your place.

Is it fair? No - it most definitely is not. Just like life isn't fair, just like their shouldn't be children starving to death in Africa. But are you going to give up your childrens clothes, or their toys, or their college education so 25 kid don't starve in Africa? No, you are not, the most you will do is mail that $100 check to some African charity every year.

Flip side is I have seen these workers prosper year after year. Nowadays almost all of them have a steady meal, decent clothing, a cell phone, some disposable income - not because of unions or other socialist policies, but because China has the capitalism meter pegged to the max - there are markets everywhere for anything, and wages are truly driven by supply and demand.

Your western values don't apply in these environments, and your idea of wage floors alienating peoples desirous of work (at any price) certainly do not. When you visit China you will understand what true capitalism is - for better or for worse, but until you do, you shouldn't be judging.

I'm not a big fan of wage floors either. They are a luxury when you have people without jobs sitting around.

So, I understand where you are coming from on that point.

What I don't agree with is "life isn't fair"... It isn't fair when you aren't willing to negotiate or fight for "fair". Some unscrupulous employers' thoughts on fair are not "fair".

Everyone in the end is an employer as well as an employee. The educated do what they can to make things "fair".

You buy products? You are an employer. You pay taxes: You are an employer. You work for wages/profit, you are an employee. If you fight the good fight, you can turn a profit and become one of the ones for who life is "fair".

Every one is both, in order to live in this world... with some exceptions. Don't take unfair sitting back - just because there are others who take unfair in this world.

That's a pretty distilled case of paranoia.

reply to post by buddhasystem

Typical response...when you disagree with someone, and have no valid argument, you resort to name-calling. FYI information, you didn't list a single PERSON, but instead listed corporations which are neither left-wing or right-wing, but consist of millions of people with views on all sides. Corporations merely contribute to parties for favors. There are no individuals involved.

Originally posted by ProfEmeritus

That's a pretty distilled case of paranoia.

reply to post by buddhasystem

 

Typical response...when you disagree with someone, and have no valid argument, you resort to name-calling.

Name calling? That's pretty rich of you to say after you produced such gems as "Obama's Thugs". Can I quote you? You have no valid argument and resort to name-calling, actually of pretty low class as well.