Pinnacle Point cave occupied 162,000 years ago

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posted on Nov, 6 2012 @ 05:49 PM
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This coastal cave in South Africa is noted for the extent of time it was used by humans but also for its preservation of possible 'modern' behaviours



It is here were seafood is first known to have been harvested and eaten this included shellfish, whale, and seal

First known use of decorative red ochre which came from a point 5 kilometers away

Use of fire to make stone tools harder and easier to work


A recent (2009) examination of worked silcrete stone from Pinnacle Point indicates that it was heat-treated. This is the oldest known example of such technology.


Until recently it was thought these types of actions had first occurred around 40,000 years ago. All of these features indicate a sophisticated level of modern behaviors thought until recently to have been associated with the Upper Paleolithic of Europe

Link to a short summary report on the cave


The oldest levels at Pinnacle Point have been dated by a combination of optically stimulated luminescence (OSL) and uranium-thorium dating of a speleotherm to 162,000 years ago. The oldest level includes both Levallois and bladelet (Howiesons Poort-like) technologies, and hundreds of pieces of pigment (red ochre).



Link to the base reports abstract - unfortunately the actual report is behind a pay wall

Image of a carved piece of red ochre



There are large number of photos in the link below but it's also written with a lot of specific jargon

Detailed report (PDF) from the 2008 excavations

Abstract of the dating of the sediments

Detailed article on use of fire to treat stone tools

edit on 6/11/12 by Hanslune because: Changed title to make it clearer




posted on Nov, 6 2012 @ 05:58 PM
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between 40.000 and 162.000 years old?

Holy sh... Now that narrows it down...!

But we're used to it... I mean, between the creationists and evolutionists the earth was created between 5000 to 4.5 billion years ago, so... it could be worse!

EDIT: no seriously... is that a margin? I'm pretty tired, I hope not.
edit on 6-11-2012 by FraternitasSaturni because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 6 2012 @ 06:14 PM
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Originally posted by FraternitasSaturni
between 40.000 and 162.000 years old?

Holy sh... Now that narrows it down...!

But we're used to it... I mean, between the creationists and evolutionists the earth was created between 5000 to 4.5 billion years ago, so... it could be worse!

EDIT: no seriously... is that a margin? I'm pretty tired, I hope not.
edit on 6-11-2012 by FraternitasSaturni because: (no reason given)


I changed the title to make a bit clearer, thanks for your imput. It was occupied from 162,000 years ago down to 40,000 years before the present



posted on Nov, 6 2012 @ 06:27 PM
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Originally posted by FraternitasSaturni
But we're used to it... I mean, between the creationists and evolutionists the earth was created between 5000 to 4.5 billion years ago, so... it could be worse!


Do creationists say that? I thought they said the Earth was created 6,016 years ago on October 23rd at 9:00 in the morning. I was unaware they went back to 4.5 billion years, which, if memory serves, is about right.



posted on Nov, 6 2012 @ 06:32 PM
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reply to post by schuyler
 


Howdy schuyler

There seems to be two main camps; Young earthers and Old earthers, the old earthers hold that science is correct but that god did everything and its the Young earthers who believe as you stated



posted on Nov, 6 2012 @ 06:43 PM
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Originally posted by schuyler

Originally posted by FraternitasSaturni
But we're used to it... I mean, between the creationists and evolutionists the earth was created between 5000 to 4.5 billion years ago, so... it could be worse!


Do creationists say that? I thought they said the Earth was created 6,016 years ago on October 23rd at 9:00 in the morning. I was unaware they went back to 4.5 billion years, which, if memory serves, is about right.


Ahm... yes...?



posted on Nov, 6 2012 @ 06:47 PM
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reply to post by Hanslune
 


Has there been any theories about the symbolism or meaning of the carved piece of red ochre that you linked?



posted on Nov, 6 2012 @ 07:09 PM
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Originally posted by Hanslune

Originally posted by FraternitasSaturni
between 40.000 and 162.000 years old?

Holy sh... Now that narrows it down...!

But we're used to it... I mean, between the creationists and evolutionists the earth was created between 5000 to 4.5 billion years ago, so... it could be worse!

EDIT: no seriously... is that a margin? I'm pretty tired, I hope not.
edit on 6-11-2012 by FraternitasSaturni because: (no reason given)


I changed the title to make a bit clearer, thanks for your imput. It was occupied from 162,000 years ago down to 40,000 years before the present


Ahhh thanks!

Cheers



posted on Nov, 6 2012 @ 08:01 PM
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reply to post by Hanslune
 



are we talking human, or hominid?

This is interesting. I am more interested in the psychology and intellectual features of creatures, be they human or not. Finding examples of "art" from any non human, even if a closely related cousin, is very interesting to me.



posted on Nov, 6 2012 @ 09:43 PM
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reply to post by Hanslune
 


Hi Hans,
That's awsome, I can't help but notice that the cave is practically at the end of the continent. Are there any sites of that age farther north on the Atlantic coas? Are there any sites inland?
And at 160k years ago who would have been the occupants? homo heidlbergensis, or h rhodensiensis or maybe a late h erectus or possibly the yet to be identified homonin that all modern sub saharan Africans carry genes from.
Also I just read an article on an ancient east African lake that was an intermediate location for early humans.



posted on Nov, 6 2012 @ 10:14 PM
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Originally posted by FraternitasSaturni

Originally posted by schuyler

Originally posted by FraternitasSaturni
But we're used to it... I mean, between the creationists and evolutionists the earth was created between 5000 to 4.5 billion years ago, so... it could be worse!


Do creationists say that? I thought they said the Earth was created 6,016 years ago on October 23rd at 9:00 in the morning. I was unaware they went back to 4.5 billion years, which, if memory serves, is about right.


Ahm... yes...?

Ahm.....no....!
Not all of us at least. Actually if you read the bible, it does not give a given age. It does give genealogies, which many use to "guess" a date for creation.
I believe you also have to look at what the bible does not say as well as what it does.
Quad



posted on Nov, 6 2012 @ 10:49 PM
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Very interesting ,Hans,thanks for sharing.


reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan
 


BFFT,you could start with this discovery,that is,fire.
If homonides had fire, made tools,no matter what species,they have time to think and create.
Just my opinion.


Archaeologists consider the emergence of stone tool manufacturing and the control of fire as the two hallmark events in the technological evolution of early humans. While experts agree the origins of stone tools date back at least 2.5 million years in Africa, the origin of fire control has been a prolonged and heated debate. Villa and Roebroeks, who together speak and read six languages, have visited or worked at dozens of the Neanderthal excavation sites in Europe. They also combed libraries throughout Europe and the United States for research papers on evidence for early fire use in Europe, contacting researchers involved in the excavations when possible for additional information and insight. Read more at: phys.org...



posted on Nov, 6 2012 @ 11:00 PM
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Really interesting. S&F for the research

I have stone tools that someone made in the past. It's impossible to know how long ago. They are heat treated diabase. They weren't completely finished, they still needed to be flaked (to sharpen) but they never got done. I brought them to some Indians and they said they still do some traditional toolmaking that way. I suppose they could be anywhere from three hundred to two thousand years old. Much more stuff was above these things, buried by Indians because it became a ceremonial site. At least that is what I was told. Whoever and whenever these people were here, they sure left me a bunch of interesting stuff to dig up. I like the way they placed rocks in rows and also the way they made rock mosiac like figures on top of some of the rocks.
edit on 6-11-2012 by rickymouse because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 6 2012 @ 11:28 PM
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reply to post by kdog1982
 


You basically support Mazlow.

I do, too.

Men who are running from predators, or scrounging for scraps, have no time to look to the heavens and dream.

I have spent time studying various animals, watching and observing. My dogs are my favorite subjects, but while hunting you get ample opportunity to see non-target wildlife just doing their thing without knowing you are there. I have come to a sort of conclusion: a key difference between humans and other creatures (though, not all other creatures) is an ability for abstract thought.

My dog, if i point at something, stares at the end of my finger. This is concrete thought. Something that serves most animals well.

But to be self aware, in a sense that we mean, one must have abstract thought to build from. This is, I think, a key in human development: to mastery of the abstract thought process. To be able to use abstract thought to solve concrete problems....that is like "intellect 2.0"



posted on Nov, 6 2012 @ 11:35 PM
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reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan
 


Yes,there came a point in our evolution that we didn't have to be on guard all the time,to constantly seek food and so on.

Sort of like,my belly is full,there is nothing hunting me down,now what? Oh,look a pretty light in the sky.

And go from there.



posted on Nov, 7 2012 @ 01:30 AM
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Originally posted by punkinworks10
reply to post by Hanslune
 


Hi Hans,
That's awsome, I can't help but notice that the cave is practically at the end of the continent. Are there any sites of that age farther north on the Atlantic coas? Are there any sites inland?
And at 160k years ago who would have been the occupants? homo heidlbergensis, or h rhodensiensis or maybe a late h erectus or possibly the yet to be identified homonin that all modern sub saharan Africans carry genes from.
Also I just read an article on an ancient east African lake that was an intermediate location for early humans.


Lots of sites inland and along the coast, the area had modern humans there about 162++ years and homins for millions of years, see the Malapa Fossil Site

Here is summary at wiki Malapa

As I understand the reports these are modern humans, here's the report I read it about ten years ago and don't remember exactly what it said

Human remains at Pinnacle point

If you read that let us know what the conclusion was



posted on Nov, 7 2012 @ 01:31 AM
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reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan
 


I linked to a report on this for Kdog, as I remember it was modern humans but I don't recall the quality and quantity of remains found



posted on Nov, 7 2012 @ 01:36 AM
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Originally posted by isyeye
reply to post by Hanslune
 


Has there been any theories about the symbolism or meaning of the carved piece of red ochre that you linked?


Yes, everything from 'doodling to great levels of mysterism' I go with doodling and absent minded scoring




The shells shown with it are from Blombos cave - modified to make into a necklace
edit on 7/11/12 by Hanslune because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 7 2012 @ 01:44 AM
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scroll down to the pic that shows cross hatch carving pattern, knew I saw it somewhere.....

slayers thread



posted on Nov, 7 2012 @ 01:47 AM
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reply to post by AussieAmandaC
 


Yep it's a very common motif in art and decoration





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