Pinnacle Point cave occupied 162,000 years ago, page 1


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Topic started on 6-11-2012 @ 05:49 PM by Hanslune


This coastal cave in South Africa is noted for the extent of time it was used by humans but also for its preservation of possible 'modern' behaviours



It is here were seafood is first known to have been harvested and eaten this included shellfish, whale, and seal

First known use of decorative red ochre which came from a point 5 kilometers away

Use of fire to make stone tools harder and easier to work

A recent (2009) examination of worked silcrete stone from Pinnacle Point indicates that it was heat-treated. This is the oldest known example of such technology.


Until recently it was thought these types of actions had first occurred around 40,000 years ago. All of these features indicate a sophisticated level of modern behaviors thought until recently to have been associated with the Upper Paleolithic of Europe

Link to a short summary report on the cave

The oldest levels at Pinnacle Point have been dated by a combination of optically stimulated luminescence (OSL) and uranium-thorium dating of a speleotherm to 162,000 years ago. The oldest level includes both Levallois and bladelet (Howiesons Poort-like) technologies, and hundreds of pieces of pigment (red ochre).



Link to the base reports abstract - unfortunately the actual report is behind a pay wall

Image of a carved piece of red ochre



There are large number of photos in the link below but it's also written with a lot of specific jargon

Detailed report (PDF) from the 2008 excavations

Abstract of the dating of the sediments

Detailed article on use of fire to treat stone tools

edit on 6/11/12 by Hanslune because: Changed title to make it clearer



reply posted on 6-11-2012 @ 06:32 PM by Hanslune
reply to post by schuyler



Howdy schuyler

There seems to be two main camps; Young earthers and Old earthers, the old earthers hold that science is correct but that god did everything and its the Young earthers who believe as you stated


reply posted on 6-11-2012 @ 06:47 PM by isyeye
reply to post by Hanslune



Has there been any theories about the symbolism or meaning of the carved piece of red ochre that you linked?


reply posted on 6-11-2012 @ 08:01 PM by bigfatfurrytexan
reply to post by Hanslune




are we talking human, or hominid?

This is interesting. I am more interested in the psychology and intellectual features of creatures, be they human or not. Finding examples of "art" from any non human, even if a closely related cousin, is very interesting to me.


reply posted on 6-11-2012 @ 09:43 PM by punkinworks10
reply to post by Hanslune



Hi Hans,
That's awsome, I can't help but notice that the cave is practically at the end of the continent. Are there any sites of that age farther north on the Atlantic coas? Are there any sites inland?
And at 160k years ago who would have been the occupants? homo heidlbergensis, or h rhodensiensis or maybe a late h erectus or possibly the yet to be identified homonin that all modern sub saharan Africans carry genes from.
Also I just read an article on an ancient east African lake that was an intermediate location for early humans.


reply posted on 6-11-2012 @ 10:49 PM by kdog1982
Very interesting ,Hans,thanks for sharing.


reply to
post by bigfatfurrytexan



BFFT,you could start with this discovery,that is,fire.
If homonides had fire, made tools,no matter what species,they have time to think and create.
Just my opinion.

Archaeologists consider the emergence of stone tool manufacturing and the control of fire as the two hallmark events in the technological evolution of early humans. While experts agree the origins of stone tools date back at least 2.5 million years in Africa, the origin of fire control has been a prolonged and heated debate. Villa and Roebroeks, who together speak and read six languages, have visited or worked at dozens of the Neanderthal excavation sites in Europe. They also combed libraries throughout Europe and the United States for research papers on evidence for early fire use in Europe, contacting researchers involved in the excavations when possible for additional information and insight. Read more at: phys.org...




reply posted on 6-11-2012 @ 11:28 PM by bigfatfurrytexan
reply to post by kdog1982



You basically support Mazlow.

I do, too.

Men who are running from predators, or scrounging for scraps, have no time to look to the heavens and dream.

I have spent time studying various animals, watching and observing. My dogs are my favorite subjects, but while hunting you get ample opportunity to see non-target wildlife just doing their thing without knowing you are there. I have come to a sort of conclusion: a key difference between humans and other creatures (though, not all other creatures) is an ability for abstract thought.

My dog, if i point at something, stares at the end of my finger. This is concrete thought. Something that serves most animals well.

But to be self aware, in a sense that we mean, one must have abstract thought to build from. This is, I think, a key in human development: to mastery of the abstract thought process. To be able to use abstract thought to solve concrete problems....that is like "intellect 2.0"


reply posted on 6-11-2012 @ 11:35 PM by kdog1982
reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan



Yes,there came a point in our evolution that we didn't have to be on guard all the time,to constantly seek food and so on.

Sort of like,my belly is full,there is nothing hunting me down,now what? Oh,look a pretty light in the sky.

And go from there.


reply posted on 7-11-2012 @ 01:30 AM by Hanslune
Originally posted by punkinworks10
reply to
post by Hanslune



Hi Hans,
That's awsome, I can't help but notice that the cave is practically at the end of the continent. Are there any sites of that age farther north on the Atlantic coas? Are there any sites inland?
And at 160k years ago who would have been the occupants? homo heidlbergensis, or h rhodensiensis or maybe a late h erectus or possibly the yet to be identified homonin that all modern sub saharan Africans carry genes from.
Also I just read an article on an ancient east African lake that was an intermediate location for early humans.


Lots of sites inland and along the coast, the area had modern humans there about 162++ years and homins for millions of years, see the Malapa Fossil Site

Here is summary at wiki Malapa

As I understand the reports these are modern humans, here's the report I read it about ten years ago and don't remember exactly what it said

Human remains at Pinnacle point

If you read that let us know what the conclusion was


reply posted on 7-11-2012 @ 01:31 AM by Hanslune
reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan



I linked to a report on this for Kdog, as I remember it was modern humans but I don't recall the quality and quantity of remains found


reply posted on 7-11-2012 @ 01:36 AM by Hanslune
Originally posted by isyeye
reply to
post by Hanslune



Has there been any theories about the symbolism or meaning of the carved piece of red ochre that you linked?


Yes, everything from 'doodling to great levels of mysterism' I go with doodling and absent minded scoring




The shells shown with it are from Blombos cave - modified to make into a necklace
edit on 7/11/12 by Hanslune because: (no reason given)

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