Shurat HaDin: 'Turkey Should be Tried, Not Israeli Officers'

Originally posted by Corruption Exposed
You must have missed General Assembly GA/11180, 30 November 2011. They passed six MORE resolutions on Israel.

Which one said that the blockade was illegal?

but they are the elected leaders of that part of land.

And responsible for the attacks on Israel.

To say they hide that they hide beyond civilians is very hypocritical of you considering the proven documentation of Israelis using Palestinian children as human shields,

Since when has israel used hospitals or schools to fire at Gaza from?

hamas even attack a school bus.... en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by hellobruce


I see what you are doing here you are trying to deflect from the topic of the conversation. Regardless of the legality of the blockade the incident in question where 9 people were murdered in international waters where no blockades were in effect therefore there is no validity in your deflection.

If this happened in the waters under Israeli blockade then at least they would have had legal grounds to inspect the ship not that I support the brutality that they used.

reply to post by hellobruce


The whole Israel-Palestine-Gaza situation is Israel's fault, Hamas are doing what the whole palestinian community should, and that is kick the Israelis out of Palestine.

@bruce, how would you like it if i came into your house and said "ok , you, homeless person, you take the guest's room, and you owner, you get the rest of the house." but after 2-3 years he takes the kitchen, and then the living room, and then the toilet and then he continues to take more and more until you have just 2 rooms for yourself and one of them is constantly in chaos because he wants it or just wants to make you move out.

What they did to those people on that ship is considered piracy and should be tried as such.

reply to post by Corruption Exposed


Yet another Israeli bashing thread. Man you really hate the Israeli people. It seems you are really good at it too. Do you honestly think attacking them will bring any peace or resolution to the conflict? I personally don't agree with everything Israel do but I don't go on the rampage on ATS starting Anti-Israel threads as a priority like you.

That Turkish boat knew they would face trouble after being warned early what would happen. They came anyway. They "Stuck their hand through the fence at the big guard dog and then complained when the dog bit them".

If you cannot see that this was a publicity stunt by the flotilla well your head is buried deeper in the sand than I even thought.

They knew they were going into trouble but they pressed on. Their fault! And yes the Turkish involved in this stunt should be the ones on trial. They are akin to suicide bombers. They obviously saw themselves as some sort of martyrs. I hope they got their virgins in paradise because it was always going to end in tears.

Turkey might be our allies and have showed incredible restraint over Syria but this court is clearly wrong and an utter disgrace to the Turkish legal system.

reply to post by phatpackage


No one here hates the Israeli population. No one. The problem that many of us in this thread have, is that the Israeli government and thier military by extention, have made some appalling messes, broken the law on occupation, gone against UN instruction on several issues of international law in fact, and deal with thier enemies in the LEAST humane way possible.

I am not saying that the people of Israel are bad in some way, and I dont believe that for a moment either. I happen to know that the population does not agree with all that its government do, just like I do not agree with much that David Cameron and the British government do. However, my, our ire toward Israels government is absolutely justified. We have seen the toxic cycle that they continue to engender in thier neighbors and enemies, specifically those in Gaza, those who effectively live in a massive town sized concentration camp.

Again, my anger at the Israeli government and its military has nothing to do with how I feel about Israelis on the whole.

I would like to see USA do nothing if a boat of Islamists approached its borders.

reply to post by TrueBrit

the Israeli government and thier military by extention, have made some appalling messes, broken the law on occupation, gone against UN instruction on several issues of international law in fact, and deal with thier enemies in the LEAST humane way possible.

Yeah and in response to and nowhere near as bad as the Palestinian extremists who hide like cowards behind hospitals and women and children. And No I am not saying all Palestinians are like that just the extremists. But yet the do nothing about stopping them fire hundreds of rockets into Israel every year. Maybe if they were more active and vigilant in stopping the hundreds and hundreds of missiles falling into Israel every year then the reaction from Israel would be less.

To say being Anti Israel government is justified and is very naive and child like. At least I have admitted I do not like all of Israel's actions but they are the one surrounded.

reply to post by 010203


HA ! The two situations are nothing alike! The boat that was boarded was borded in international waters ,NOT waters which fall under the territorial jurisdiction of Israel, or any department of its government. Second, the boat that was boarded was headed toward Gaza, not toward Israel, so there was never any issue of border control.

Besides, you know what would happen if a boat full of people approached the shores of the USA. The coast guard wouldnt get there in time, and the people on the boat would get the hell out of the boat, and then make off and get green cards, jobs, and lives worth living. Happens every day.

reply to post by Corruption Exposed


I visited the original article. It says that "The Turkish leader Erdogan was the one who allowed these extremists from Al Qaeda, Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood to launch a naval expedition against Israel, a country that Turkey was not at war with," declared Darshan-Leitner. “The United Nations has investigated the Israeli coastal blockade of Gaza and has determined that it was in full compliance with international law. The flotilla, which was provided material support by the Turkish government, was a provocation designed to endanger the lives of Israeli sailors tasked with enforcing the lawful blockade. As such, officials in Istanbul and their role in this act of war against a non-belligerent nation needs to be investigated. Erdogan must be tried for his liability over the deaths of the terrorists and the serious injuries to Israeli servicemen."
It is a fact that the Israelis who boarded the boat in the first instance were lightly armed, expecting little resistance from the occupants of the boat. They were overwhelmed and some were seriously injured. Had they been properly armed they would have used their weapons and not have been overwhelmed. You may think that they got what they asked for but Israel reacted with extreme force to punish the attacks. One can criticise the level of force and the outcome, but not, in my opinion, the legality of their actions.
In my opinion, this piece is just anti-Israel propaganda. Remember, Israel is still technically at war with all of its neighbours, except Egypt, it has no internationally agreed borders, only armistice lines. And is continually being bombarded by rockets from Gaza - hence the blockade. Ask yourself, what would you do if someone was lobbing grenades into your back garden every day and refuses to stop? You'd call the police wouldn't you? You'd expect them to put the guy in prison, to protect you? So why is Israel wrong for trying to stop Hamas from making the rockets?

Originally posted by phatpackage


Yeah and in response to and nowhere near as bad as the Palestinian extremists who hide like cowards behind hospitals and women and children.

If they are hiding in such circumstances, then the simple answer is not to bloody well carpet bomb or missile strike the building. Send in the snipers instead. Perfectly simple really when you think for five seconds.

And No I am not saying all Palestinians are like that just the extremists. But yet the do nothing about stopping them fire hundreds of rockets into Israel every year.

Yeah, because YOU would be sorting those buggers out if you lived in Gaza wouldnt you? Malnourished and missing a leg because of an Israeli airstrike, or with malfunctional lungs due to the use of white phosphor in civilian locations, you would still be taking names and kicking butts wouldnt you? Bloody ignorance of your sort is utterly ridiculous.

Maybe if they were more active and vigilant in stopping the hundreds and hundreds of missiles falling into Israel every year then the reaction from Israel would be less.

The hundreds and hundreds of missiles you mention. Just a word on them. Missiles, that word missiles implies a big military grade thing with a rocket engine and a tracking/guidance system. The REALITY however is that most of these are bottle rockets, with extremely modest charges in them. Now, the Israeli government preside over a nation which has a significant slice of military industry operating inside it. That military tech industry has produced some gems over the last ten years, one of which is a system, which if utilised can take anything from a bullet to a nuclear bomb out of the air, well before it even comes near landing or impacting its target.

They MAKE crap like that in Israel, but dont install it on thier borders, even though it would save every life taken by the low tech bottle rockets, prevent snipers from firing rounds into Israel from outside, prevent nuclear weapons from being used on its soil, and so on and so forth. Why do they not install this equipment? Because they would have even bigger trouble legitimising thier actions toward thier neighbors then, because even though the Israeli government and its people would be safe, the government would still find reasons (poor ones) to kill women, children and innocent non combatant Gazans with thier damned blockade, and with thier airstrikes and poorly thought out missile strikes.

To say being Anti Israel government is justified and is very naive and child like.

How is being able to differentiate between a people and its government naive and child like? If more people demostrated the capacity to do the same, then most intolerance and hatred, xenophobia, would be a thing of the past. I recomend naivety of this nature, if that is truely what it is.

At least I have admitted I do not like all of Israel's actions but they are the one surrounded.

Being surrounded does not give one an excuse to ignore all manner of laws in ones self defense. As I have mentioned before, the level of response by Israel to the low tech, low impact rockets that land in its territory, is not proportionate to the threat they pose, and since the Israeli government could have an iron clad defense against these which they CHOOSE not to use, the response is even more unfathomable.

reply to post by MDDoxs


i thought this boat was full of peace campaigners, but they dont look peaceful to me. these protesters came looking to make a statement and effectively provoke Israel into a reaction and they got what they came looking for. i fully agree that this is effectively piracy but i do believe any other country would have boarded in exactly same circumstances, and you would be naive to think otherwise. if the protesters had allowed them to board rather than resist then as i see it there would have been no deaths, they would have been searched, then allowed on their way.

Originally posted by Corruption Exposed


First off, I put this in the BAN forum due to the conspiracy of the world not holding Israel accountable for the murder of another American citizen, this time in international waters so I believe it belongs in this forum as there are people within Israeli society who are trying to convince the world that these peace activists were terrorists which is certainly a grand conspiracy that the world community allows this to happen.

This statement from Nitsana Darshan is one of the most outrageous comments I have heard coming out of Israel in a long while, and believe me I have heard many.

First off he labels the peace activists as "Islamic terrorists" while many on board were not even Muslim. Nine people were executed including an American-Turkish citizen who was shot at point blank range in the back of the head while their ship was illegally boarded in international waters which can only be explained as piracy.

The Israeli Law Center should immediately demand his resignation unless they want to associate themselves with this extremist and his views. In cases like this you are guilty by association.

I would like to see justice served for the victims of the barbaric murders suffered by the hands of the IDF commandos who participated in this raid as they are the real terrorists, not the peace activists.

I hope a high ranking Israeli official will speak out against this statement otherwise it will showcase the delusions that are shared within the Israeli government and it's affiliate organizations.

This article is pure propaganda and needs to be delegitimized.

www.israelnationalnews.com
(visit the link for the full news article)

Instead of delegitimizing the article...can we just start bombing Israel instead?

I mean...usually I'm really opposed to the concept of the US meddling in the Middle Eastern affairs. But some rogue, terrorist supporting nations are simply too dangerous to allow to exist.

And Israel is the most dangerous one of all.

I would like to make a couple of points.

First collective punishment is illegal.

Second Hamas was formed after the blockade began, it was formed in response to the blockade, just as hezbollah formed after israel attacked lebanon, both formed in response to israeli actions.

Originally posted by hellobruce

Originally posted by GLaDOS
Oh, how ironic. The blockade itself in the first place is illegal according to the UN.

Why would you lie about that?
Remember, the UN Report of the Secretary-General’s Panel of Inquiry
on the 31 May 2010 Flotilla Incident stated:

Israel faces a real threat to its security from militant groups in Gaza. The naval blockade was imposed as a legitimate security measure in order to prevent weapons from entering Gaza by sea and its implementation complied with the requirements of international law.

Why do some people post rubbish, when it is so easy to check the facts?

www.reuters.com...

Originally posted by 010203
I would like to see USA do nothing if a boat of Islamists approached its borders.

Educate yourself before you make an ass of yourself.

The boat was full of peace activists, many were not Muslim.

Kenneth O'keefe is not a Muslim, and Edy Epstein who is a holocaust survivor who is actually a Jew was supposed to be on that boat but she could not join the mission due to last minute health issues. You should look into who was actually on that boat before you lable them as "Islamists"...blind ignorance will not get you very far, especially on ATS.

These were not Muslim extremists. The only extremists in this situation were the IDF terrorists which could also be considered as pirates which means they should be tried in the international court of law.

I find it tedious that Israel will make absolutely no concessions to admitting any kind of guilt. Due to this fact, it makes the whole situation seem even more ridiculous.

School yard BS is what it has degenerated into.

Well, well you cant charge me with murder of civilians and Humanitarians, because I am charging YOU with their murders….so ha!

If Israel could admit to some of their poor decisions, it would be easier to sympathize, but since this is not the case…We can only present the facts and view Israel’s counter points that seem silly.

Tiring

Dear hellobruce,

It's common knowledge at this point that Israel has been committing unthinkable amounts of grevious human rights violations againts the Palestinian population, and has been doing so since it's conception in 1948. This is one of the major reasons why the overwhelming majority of the international community support the idea of Palestinian freedom. The (somewhat) recent transparency of the Israeli/Palestinian situation has opened the eyes of many around the globe, exposing numerous, despicable crimes against Palestinian people: the Nakbah, exploiting the methane resources of the coast of Gaza, accumulating large profits from an entire industry based around imprisoning gaza and the west bank, building settlements on internationally recognized Palestinian land, operation cast lead, etc.

There really is no debate at this point. Israel is in violation of international law (especially with the wall that was erected) and obviously has no intention of recognizing the Palestinian people as equal citizens.

and phatpackage: why attack someone who is speaking out against something that is wrong? You seem to agree that the Israel has committed some terrible crimes, why shouldn't someone call them out for their actions just a few times? Ten times? A hundred times? Until they are punished for what they've done?

Originally posted by ciscoagent
reply to post by Corruption Exposed

 

I visited the original article. It says that "The Turkish leader Erdogan was the one who allowed these extremists from Al Qaeda, Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood to launch a naval expedition against Israel, a country that Turkey was not at war with," declared Darshan-Leitner. “The United Nations has investigated the Israeli coastal blockade of Gaza and has determined that it was in full compliance with international law. The flotilla, which was provided material support by the Turkish government, was a provocation designed to endanger the lives of Israeli sailors tasked with enforcing the lawful blockade. As such, officials in Istanbul and their role in this act of war against a non-belligerent nation needs to be investigated. Erdogan must be tried for his liability over the deaths of the terrorists and the serious injuries to Israeli servicemen."
It is a fact that the Israelis who boarded the boat in the first instance were lightly armed, expecting little resistance from the occupants of the boat. They were overwhelmed and some were seriously injured. Had they been properly armed they would have used their weapons and not have been overwhelmed. You may think that they got what they asked for but Israel reacted with extreme force to punish the attacks. One can criticise the level of force and the outcome, but not, in my opinion, the legality of their actions.
In my opinion, this piece is just anti-Israel propaganda. Remember, Israel is still technically at war with all of its neighbours, except Egypt, it has no internationally agreed borders, only armistice lines. And is continually being bombarded by rockets from Gaza - hence the blockade. Ask yourself, what would you do if someone was lobbing grenades into your back garden every day and refuses to stop? You'd call the police wouldn't you? You'd expect them to put the guy in prison, to protect you? So why is Israel wrong for trying to stop Hamas from making the rockets?

You visited the article?

You say this is an anti Israel propaganda article, when in fact it is pro Israel propaganda piece. The article mentions that these people on the boat were labled as Al Qaeda, Muslim Brotherhood, and Hamas when in fact no one on the boat had any affiliation with any of those groups. As I previously mentioned these were a mixed group of people of all races and religion with one common goal of sending aid to the people of Gaza and breaking the unlawful blockade.

You say the blocakde is legal even though others and myself have proven otherwise, and even if the blockade was legal (which it is not as we have proven) the incident happened in international waters where the "blockade" is not even in effect so once again I am pointing out the obvious because you choose to ignore the reality of the situation. You cannot defend the murder of these 9 people due to the fact that they "breached the blockade" since they never even had the chance to do so.

You say the commandos were lightly armed and only became physical when attacked but the video clearly shows the IDF dropping flashbang grenades or something of the sort (forgive my lack of military hardware knowlwedge) before they boarded so they instigated the first act of aggression on a ship in international waters which is an act of piracy and the passengers of the ship had every right to defend themselves.

Regardless of your lack of understanding of the situation there is no excuse for you to defend of the barbaric acts of piracy and murder in international waters.

I hate repeating myself as other members and myself have elaborated these points in great detail various times in this thread yet you choose to ignore the facts of the situation and approach the discussion with what I consider to be childish reverse psychology.

Originally posted by Corruption Exposed

First off he labels the peace activists as "Islamic terrorists" while many on board were not even Muslim. Nine people were executed including an American-Turkish citizen who was shot at point blank range in the back of the head while their ship was illegally boarded in international waters which can only be explained as piracy.

Ahhh the beauty of propaganda. Probably takes a page from our book.

You don't have to tell the truth, all you have to do is say something outrageous and then repeat it a bunch of times... with repetition the weak minded start taking it as truth.

Don't believe me, just watch what a channel like Fox News does to the masses of the uneducated.

Oh hey, what's this I just found searching some news websites:

International Public Opinion Poll Regarding Israel

Israel retained its position as one of the world's most negatively-viewed countries, according to BBC's annual poll published Wednesday night.

Out of the 22 countries polled, only 3 viewed Israel in a positive light. Guess where the USA stands in this poll... (hint: not on the same side as the majority of the planet...)

Now why is this? Seriously, I challenge ANYBODY in this thread that is defending Israel to give an explanation for why this poll reflects what it does.... Any takers?