Originally posted by Mynaeris
This is more of a philosophical rather than a religious or political debate.

One has to primarily start by seperating what is animal nature and what is man's nature. people are always anxious to convince others that man is superior to animals.

So what are the animal drives - feeding, reproducing and general survival? However whether you are a Christian or a Buddhist the basic tenet of human existence is the improvement of himself, his tribe and the global society as a whole. Taking that as your point of departure it makes Christianity a very natural pursuit.

Good response here. I hadn't thought of it as human nature against animal nature. But, you also said the magick words....."improvement of himself". So, how does this pertain to religions.....most of the religious people out there (most...not all) do not limit this to self, but rather want to force their beliefs on others.

So the root of Christianity is love for all - in Buddhism we refer to reaching the state of Oneness ( accepting that we and all of God's creation are one- and that all we do to others we do to ourselves). The Christian God is a loving God. This discussion revolves around Christianity and therefore the teachings of Christ. Christ taught us to believe that all things are possible if we believe, and if we love our fellow man as much as we love ourselves. Now he also realized that it was not an easy task, but as in other things he realized that man would strive to win against all adversity. And when we study the Lord's prayer - left for us by Christ we find the answer to most of the questions asked by other posters above.

Our Father, who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy Name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, On earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our trespasses, As we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, But deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever and ever. Amen.

I am willing to discuss the prayer in greater detail if anybody wishes me to, but for this discussion I am going to briefly touch on the main points:

1) We ask this loving God to forgive us where we fail as any good parent would;
2) We undertake to forgive others when they attack or harm us;
3) we know that its easy to be tempted so we ask that we should not be tempted, but rather be protected from any harm or "bad thoughts"

It is a mistake to make "Christianity" and "organised religion" synonyms - Anglicans, Mormons, Catholics, etc are forms of Christianity but they are based on a certain groups analysis of Christianity. Even after the death of Christ there were infights between Paul and the other Apostles.

Basically the famous golden rule is the cornerstone of Christianity - to learn to love all of creation - and love is the most natural of all human experiences.

The problem with christianity (and ALL other organized religions), is that it is a sad attempt by man to control everything. Faith is something we all should have, life would be very dismal if we knew once we died, that was it. But to package it and define it as this or that, and to follow primitive writings by men who claimed to have the answers, just follow them and they will take you where you need to be is almost pathetic. Our relationships with whatever higher power exists should be solely internal, it should be reflected in the way we treat ALL other life forms, with respect. And it should be something we celebrate with our families, not in some church listening to the ramblings of some man who probably lives a more "sinful" life than any of those who follow him. Why must we have an explaination and name for everything? We are not meant to comprehend the higher powers, if we were we would have full use of our brains, not the 10% we use to struggle with and make up stories about them. Those who claim to be men of god are frauds, all people should drop organized religion, respect each other, and live life the way they choose, as long as they do not harm others in the process. Imagine a world like that, god, in whatever form it exists, would be much happier that way I'm sure. The need to be worshipped is a human desire, I doubt any all powerful force would have an ego.

[edit on 20-10-2004 by 27jd]

How about like all other freedoms of speech, we give people the freedom to believe in a God as they choose without saying they are pathetic for joining together in praise?

A love for all beings presupposes an acceptance of weaknesses in ourselves and others. This in no way says that it is wrong to worship in church, or to be part of any organised religion, in fact most "new aged spirituality" will tell you that the power of prayer is squared by the participants. Which to me seems like a great thing?

Originally posted by Mynaeris
How about like all other freedoms of speech, we give people the freedom to believe in a God as they choose without saying they are pathetic for joining together in praise.

If you want to believe in God, or believe in a certain religion, that's no problem. When you try to enforce that religion on other people, and pass judgement on other people based on 'your faith,' that's when it becomes a problem. I'm not saying you do this or not, I haven't talked with you much in the past, but quite a few Christians on this board do exactly as I said. And passing that line is when it becomes a problem.

Why lay it at the door of Christians? People pass judgements on others according to their social values and mores. As for me I was raised a Christian, but have been studying Buddhism, Jainism, Hinduism, Confucianism and find no contradiction with my "birth faith". And no we are not born a faith but we are born into a faith.

Since it has nothing to do with politics, you'll likely see it moved to "Religion"

Any person that tries to say how another one should live their life is in the wrong. Unless someone is doing something that hurts someone else, they should just keep their nose out of other people's business. Only reason I singled out Christians is because (1) that's what this thread is about, and (2) more than likely if you find someone preaching to you on these boards about how you should be living your life, that person is a Christian.

Mynaeris,

This is a fundamental difference between Christian teachings and those Vedic henceforth; one is born with an unconditioned consciousness in the latter, and the former concludes we are born with a social construct we call sin.

Christianity is not natural; typing on this computer is not natural; wearing pants is not natural.

Christians cannot even provide conclusive evidence to prove the existence of thier Jesus, and you expect them to convince the rest of the world that homosexuality is not natural ?

Deep

Originally posted by Mynaeris
How about like all other freedoms of speech, we give people the freedom to believe in a God as they choose without saying they are pathetic for joining together in praise?

I said it was almost pathetic. I guess some people are just born followers, and fail to see how wonderful the world would be without the divisions of organized religion. If people want to join together and praise the higher powers, that's fine, but there should be NO denominations or worshipping "prophets", there should just be a gathering of ALL people, from every walk of life, no christians, no muslims, no hindus, just people, gathering together to celebrate life. Period. There would be far less wars, persecution, genocide, or any other "benefits" of dividing religions. If anybody here has children, do you demand they thank you and praise you for everything you give them? I don't, my 3 yr old sons very existence is enough thanks for me. I should be thanking him for the joy he brings me everyday. I don't demand he grovel at my feet and worship me, he is my son, he IS part of me. I'm sure the same goes for god, we are part of god. How heartbroken would you be if your children started killing each other because they had different ideas of what makes you happy? You likely wouldn't be happy at all, and I'm sure the same goes for god. Wake up people, celebrate life.

Originally posted by ZeroDeep
Mynaeris,

This is a fundamental difference between Christian teachings and those Vedic henceforth; one is born with an unconditioned consciousness in the latter, and the former concludes we are born with a social construct we call sin.

Christianity is not natural; typing on this computer is not natural; wearing pants is not natural.

Christians cannot even provide conclusive evidence to prove the existence of thier Jesus, and you expect them to convince the rest of the world that homosexuality is not natural ?

Deep

Which one of the Vedic religions are "natural", and which one of these "Vedic religions" can prove any part of its roots. Possibly you can find me historical evidence of any of the multitude of Gods and strict ritual found within Hinduism and the Vedas. And since when is homosexuality accepted within Hinduism or am I confusing the untouchable status of the hijra with something else?

27jd: it would appear you are as judgemental as the "christians" on ATS, you also want to tell others what they should believe in, and whats wrong with their beliefs. Hang on to your beliefs and find the love inside you to allow others to find it their way inside of them.

[edit on 20-10-2004 by Mynaeris]

Are you arguing that Christianity is right because it's just as wrong as the other religions of the world?

Originally posted by W_HAMILTON
Are you arguing that Christianity is right because it's just as wrong as the other religions of the world?

I am assuming you are referring to me? If so, my answer is that there is nothing wrong with Christianity, read my discussion about the basic tenets of Christianity, and as stated before the way people insist of displaying their "Christianity" through religion is often a problem. The bible has often been distorted for the benefit of a group/cult - cases in point Catholics/Davidians/Mormons/etc etc

[edit on 20-10-2004 by Mynaeris]

In theory you may be able to separate the two, but in reality you really can't.

Do you think it's ok for Christians to impose their beliefs onto others, or try to convert people into believing what they believe?

Which one of the Vedic religions are "natural", and which one of these "Vedic religions" can prove any part of its roots. Possibly you can find me historical evidence of any of the multitude of Gods and strict ritual found within Hinduism and the Vedas. And since when is homosexuality accepted within Hinduism or am I confusing the untouchable status of the hijra with something else?

You're confused. Read what i said again. What's the difference between thsoe born in most Eastern faiths, than those born in Western faiths ?

Deep

Originally posted by Mynaeris
27jd: it would appear you are as judgemental as the "christians" on ATS, you also want to tell others what they should believe in, and whats wrong with their beliefs. Hang on to your beliefs and find the love inside you to allow others to find it their way inside of them.

Before you try and play the poor, persecuted christian card, please point out where I have been judgmental. When have I judged anybody? I have simply stated that the way others (organized religions) are finding inside them, leads straight to war, genocide and death. If you truly believe religion has not caused these things, I don't know what to say. By the way, maybe instead of trying to label me as judgemental because you can't engage my thoughts, answer these questions: How would you feel if your children were killing each other because they had different ideas of what makes you happy? Would you want them judging each other and believing that you love one more than the other because of how they live their lives? I doubt I'll get any straight answers, because followers wait to be given answers. (Not a judgement, I am not saying anybody is right or wrong for being a follower, it's just not something I personally would want to be.)

MOVED TO BTW FAITH,SPIRITUALITY,and THEOLOGY

Thanks for moving this Quiksilver. I totally forgot about this board on BTS....my bad. Now it is where it belongs...hope everyone can find it though.