I hope this is a good place for this thread.....if not feel free to move to wherever. I thought about putting it in Religious conspiricies but it is really not a conspiricy.

Ok...here goes. The biggest argument I hear from Christians about homosexuality is that it is not natural. Well, I also hear alot about the sin of it and that we are all sinners. If it is human NATURE to be a sinner, then how can Christianity be natural for humans?

What I mean is if being a Christian is against your natural tendencies, how can you justify being a Christian (using the same logic of homosexuality not being natural). Being a Christian is not natural then...is it not? So, should the constitution be changed to affect Christians rights since it is not natural?

[edit on 20-10-2004 by MacMerdin]

Originally posted by MacMerdin
I hope this is a good place for this thread.....

With a topic like this - I'd say you chose the perfect place. Let the flaming begin...

not natural how? your reasoning is based on what? just because homosexuality is thought so? give a reason for this to be taken seriously..

Originally posted by Durden
Let the flaming begin...

Some people are working hard to try to keep this place a civilised (even tho sometime heated) debate forum. Comments like this certainly won't help. (just a friendly reminded - this ain't the "Mudpit" anymore)

What defines what is natural and what is not today? How can people know what is natural when they don't even know who they are anymore.

I think it's a weird question you're asking, but my opinion toward mainstream organised religions haven't changed, we don't need them, and no, they certainly ain't natural. (not Christiannity more than any other) Not only are they not natural, they are the devil's tool.




[Edited on 20-10-2004 by m0rbid]

The reasoning is that it is human nature to sin. It is Christianity's nature (if you will) to not sin. Jesus did not sin according to the Christian bible....so Jesus was not natural. I know I will get that Jesus is God in human form so he isn't natural to begin with, but if God made it...then it is natural...including Jesus. Am I rambling or making sense? Probably rambling but just wanted to see what others thought of this idea.

Originally posted by m0rbid

Originally posted by Durden
Let the flaming begin...

Some people are working hard to try to keep this place a civilised (even tho sometime heated) debate forum. Comments like this certainly won't help.

Hm...yeah. My bad.

I'm not getting what you're trying to say. Christianity revolves around going against your human nature...

I can agree with you in a sence that I am not a christian believer yes we can said through historical facts that religion is a man made believe.

Only on that base I can agree with your post.

Christianity is certainly NOT natural. It asks people to set aside their wants and desires.

Conforming to strict guidelines is never an easy thing to do. This is my main problem with Christians in general. Many live a life of struggle, which is a good thing, trying to be something better than before and live to a higher standard.

But in that none of us is perfect, we should really not use Christian doctrine to demonize others who do not follow it's teachings.

It's like making people drink at AA meetings to show how stupid drinking is. It's contradictory to Christianity in general.

I think you guys are getting the jist of what I'm trying to say. Trying....... I don't know...it just seems like an oxymoron thing to say that homosexuality is bad because it's against human nature or nature in general and then live a life (Christian, Muslim, Jewish etc.) that goes against human nature themselves. Any clearer?

Originally posted by MacMerdin
The reasoning is that it is human nature to sin. It is Christianity's nature (if you will) to not sin.

no, christianity says everyone sins, lesser in some, greater in others, but its believing in christ which leads to forgiveness of these sins, the bible doesnt even say homosexuality is unnatural, it just says its wrong and a sin.

christianity's nature is to believe in god and accept jesus as your savior, not to be like jesus was, thats just impossible for anyone.

You got a good point there. According to the bible, isn't it a sin to go to the toilet (or somethign like that) ? This certainly ain't "natural".

I think Christianity as practiced and interpreted by most Christians....is un-natural...Rigid, judgmental, don't follow the rules of their own teaching, bigoted, the list could go and on. It's almost as if the faith is set for it's followers to fail....
Please note before jumping me that I said most Christains

[edit on 10/20/2004 by LadyV]

Originally posted by m0rbid
You got a good point there. According to the bible, isn't it a sin to go to the toilet (or somethign like that) ? This certainly ain't "natural".

lol, no its not a sin..

Originally posted by LadyV
I think Christianity as practiced and interpreted by most Christians....is un-natural...Rigid, judgmental, don't follow the rules of their own teaching, bigoted, the list could go and on. It's almost as if the faith is set for it's followers to fail....
Please note before jumping me that I said most Christains

[edit on 10/20/2004 by LadyV]

as christ would tell you, judgement is wrong, only god can judge because hes the only one who truly knows everyone, these judgemental christians will be judged the way they have judged others, they condemn themselves.

Originally posted by namehere
as christ would tell you

I think you are basically illustrating his point. Christ would not tell me, because there is no Christ. There may have been at some point, I have no idea, neither do you, you just have faith that he existed.

I think that's what he is saying.

It's not natural to believe in the unnatural. I'm not saying that for its negative connotations, I'm just saying it because it's true. If God were natural, we would know he exists -- we wouldn't just have to have blind faith. We wouldn't have to take someone else's word for it.

It's not natural to believe in some invisible man that you have no proof exists, who just happened to speak daily to people thousands of years ago -- even though he doesn't today -- so that they could write a nice book by which you base your entire life around which guides your thinking.

This probably is more of a religious conspiracy type of thread though, rather than a political one.

Originally posted by W_HAMILTON
I think you are basically illustrating his point. Christ would not tell me, because there is no Christ. There may have been at some point, I have no idea, neither do you, you just have faith that he existed.

I think that's what he is saying.

It's not natural to believe in the unnatural. I'm not saying that for its negative connotations, I'm just saying it because it's true. If God were natural, we would know he exists -- we wouldn't just have to have blind faith. We wouldn't have to take someone else's word for it.

It's not natural to believe in some invisible man that you have no proof exists, who just happened to speak daily to people thousands of years ago -- even though he doesn't today -- so that they could write a nice book by which you base your entire life around which guides your thinking.

well if its not natural, then how does it occur? faith is a feeling, unnatural: In violation of natural feelings; inhuman. In violation of a natural law.
so is it not natural, since it comes from my thoughts?

natural law: A law or body of laws that derives from nature and is believed to be binding upon human actions apart from or in conjunction with laws established by human authority.

is faith also not a human action?

[edit on 20-10-2004 by namehere]

This is more of a philosophical rather than a religious or political debate.

One has to primarily start by seperating what is animal nature and what is man's nature. people are always anxious to convince others that man is superior to animals.

So what are the animal drives - feeding, reproducing and general survival? However whether you are a Christian or a Buddhist the basic tenet of human existence is the improvement of himself, his tribe and the global society as a whole. Taking that as your point of departure it makes Christianity a very natural pursuit.

He was referring to Christianity, which is an established religion. It's a choice whether you are Christian or not. It's not something that comes naturally. It is something that is taught.

As for your discussion about faith, no, I don't believe that is something that comes naturally either. I think it is a by-product of other 'natural' human feelings though. It's not instilled in me to believe in something, 'just because.' It's nothing something that comes naturally.

Now, something is more natural, is probably the fear of dying. Or at least, the unknown -- what happens when you die, is there an afterlife, do you continue to exist, so you simply 'die,' or what? I think anyone that is aware of their own mortality, as we humans are, these are 'natural' feelings.

So faith in something greater, ie God, is the way you react to such feelings. But you coming to this solution is not THE answer, it's just the answer you came up with personally. If it were natural for everyone to be instilled at birth with faith in the unknown, you wouldn't have atheists, and you wouldn't even need churches or religion -- since what they teach would come 'naturally.'