Renegade Jewish Settlers

If we are balanced and fair minded and refrain from iriotic attacks on fellow members here on Ats..we may see that over 90% of these new settlers that attempt to claim new land off the already sinned against Palestinians are from the terrorties Of the former USSR.
If we were to meditate on this fact instead of ignoring it ..we may see the truth of the injustice.

But truth is a rare goal.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Your only argument for the state of Israel in the middle east is that Jews happened to have a kingdom there a long time ago.

No, that is ONE of my arguments. The main argument is the significance of this land to Jews.

Which you don't care about, end of story. I don't know why I bother wasting words on you.

This alone renders invalid the very idea that the land belonged "originally" to the jews.

The inconsistency of your logic is astounding. First you say the Palestinians are indigenous to the land, now you're assuming an argument against the concept of indigeneity, using the Israelites theft of the land as proof that they were no more the real owners than the canaanites. Ok. So if power is all that matters, and indigeneity, or, rather, since my main argument is the religious and spiritual significance of this land to Jews, just as Italy is to speakers of Italian and caretakers of Italian culture; i'm sure you'll acknowledge their claim to their national homeland, but to the Jews you begin fashioning shoddy arguments left/right/and center, and the more stars you get, the more obnoxious you become.

.... and the Palestinian Arabs with that land they were living on before the UN made an "Israel" out of that land.

In cities with Arabized Hebrew names.

The Arabs have 22 states. As I think I mentioned in this thread already, the Jews, at least the Sephardic Jews, should be entitled to national self determination, and no, they will not and should not be subjected to the embarrassment and dehumanization of Islamic Dhimmitude.

I wonder how many people know about your sympathies with Islam - and so your support, or either ignorance of, the Islamic practice of mistreating and discriminating religious minorities.

Justice will happen when peoples are acknowledged. When the sin against the Jewish people is remedied.

It's just so freaking unfortunate - and super frustrating - that the perpetrators of this grand evil, the Roman empire, continue down to this day with a European establishment which holds to the same dark and acerbic philosophy as the roman's did.

The fact that people can say "Israel stole land", when they won land in a defensive battle, just shows how they can twist things - how ironic things become, how twisted and distorted from their initial context. George Orwell should be given a prize for establishing this truism of politics: The past was erased, the erasure was forgotten, the lie became truth.

It's so easy! The holocaust is now up for question! And against the same exact people vilified today!

reply to post by Dr Expired


And where do you get such statistics from?

Many are in fact Sephardic Jews, or Ashkenazi i.e east european Jews.

reply to post by dontreally

What is mythological about it?

12 twelve tribes who conquered the land of Canaan formed a 'confederation' called Israel. This confederation was based upon a belief system derived from some extraordinary experience it had in it's ancient past (the Exodus was already 350-400 years in the past when Israel was founded). What's mythological about this?

One tribe derived from a forefather named "judah", another from "reuben", another from "ephraim", and so on.

You just keep inventing reasons for why you have to oppose Israel.

Which all comes from a story book.
There is no evidence that any of it is actual history. Don't you know that?
Now there are some things that are pointed out as "proof" by the fans of this myth, but they are not convincing to me.
The Stele of Merneptah that supposedly "might" have the Egyptian word for Israel on it.
The Moabite Mesha Stele, that "might" say, "the son of King Omri" on it.
The Tel Dan Inscription, that contains a possible mention of the name 'David'.
That's about it.

You have a horrid knowledge of the Bible.
. . . David didn't establish the kingdom. Saul did.

David captured Jerusalem which to that point had resisted the Israelites and was held by the Jebusites (according to the story).

According to the Hebrew Bible, the Jebusites were a Canaanite tribe who inhabited and built Jerusalem prior to its conquest by King David. According to the Biblical account; the Books of Kings state that Jerusalem was known as Jebus prior to this event. According to some Biblical chronologies, the city was conquered by King David in 1003 BC, or according to other sources 869 BC.
Wikipedia

The "other sources" would be other references in the old testament.

It's actually 135 AD, after the Jews lost to the forces of Hadrian. Who then razed some 600 villages, killed thousands and exiled millions. And who called the land Palestine since "132 AD"??

This is where I got it from, and it has been there a while without being "corrected".

In 132 CE, Hadrian joined the province of Iudaea with Galilee to form new province of Syria Palaestina, and Jerusalem was renamed "Aelia Capitolina".
Wikipedia

Almost all people called it the holy land. Not Palestine.

I believe in the "West", otherwise "Catholic" Europe, for the purposes of propaganda for the Crusades, it was called "the Holy land", but on a map of that era, I would think that it would have said, "Palestine".

reply to post by dontreally

As annoying as the latter can be, it in no way approximates the insanity of dressing up children in suicide bomber outfits.

I agree with you, its really doesn't help the Palestinians cause dressing kids and baby's in suicide jackets.

But end of the day, Israeli's and Palestinians are as bad as each other, the madness has to end.

My problem is the expansionist nature of Israel, all done in the SILLY myth its land promised by god, but didn't your god say you will be granted a homeland when he returns, so were is he ?

As you know already, i'm a atheist, and find the god argument absolutely ridiculous.
And i feel Israel should stay within the boundaries agreed upon by the UN, that was done fair and just and at the time all Jew's were thrilled with this agreement, except the Zionist extremists.

The Stern Gang of Menachem Begin's Irgun Tsvai Leumi and the Lehi, which had been committing terrorist activities and fighting the British, rejected the agreed plan by the UN.
Begin openly said at the time that the partition would not bring peace.
He also said “the bisection of our homeland is illegal, it will never be recognized”
Begin also said "the Jewish state must make territorial expansion possible, after the shedding of much blood"

Now you see, it's these extreme Zionist ideologies, that make you no better then the lunatic muslim extremists

It's the hardcore revisionist like Menachem Begin's Irgun Tsvai Leumi and yourself, with these crazy ideologies who are the problem to finding peace, citing ancient texts to justify your actions, and you will never be happy until you control the whole of Palestine.

Before you Zionists came about, Jews and Arabs got along great, living next door to each other eating at the same tables, caring for each others children.

Its the Zionist crazy ideologies that destroyed that.

I honestly do try and give Israel the benefit of the doubt whenever possible and for a great many reasons. Not least of which, they are or...perhaps were at this point..the closest ally the U.S. has in that general region. Whatever the case on that though, it is historical fact that the United Nations intended to create two states there with one being Israel and one being Palestine. That had been where the world was at when Israel jumped the gun and made their own. Wll... Fine I can accept the borders expanding by wars too. People shouldn't have been attacking them with the stated intent of obliterating them to the last person. One can't blame them for fighting to win when that is where the stakes are.

Having said all that, There is just no way Israel can keep defending THIS:





This second one is a map I made up from a general land area PD map some time back. It has populations, mileages by Google earth point to point ruler tool, and some demographics from recently. It gives a perspective of area distances which is important for the first one in just how little they've got left. If the West Bank were primarily Palestinians and just a few Settlements or something, I'd wonder about the settlements but wonder more about the Palestinians. As it is though, that's basically been taken by Israel with some of the lower quality land and a few population centers left for the one's the whole area is supposed to be for.. That's pretty far from how that was ever meant or really can work for the long term, IMO.

reply to post by dontreally


Oh and another thing, you keep talking about Hamas, i'm sure your aware that it was infact Israeli and the American Zionists who funded and created Hamas, to counter Arafat, but that backfired when Hamas got voted into power in the elections.

It's just madness.

Just a little something about the age of the name Palestine:

Herodotus wrote in c. 450 BCE in The Histories of a 'district of Syria, called Palaistinê" (whence Palaestina, from which Palestine is derived).[2] And in c. 40 CE, the Roman-Jewish writer Philo of Alexandria wrote of the Jews in Palestine: "Moreover Palestine and Syria too are not barren of exemplary wisdom and virtue, which countries no slight portion of that most populous nation of the Jews inhabits. There is a portion of those people called Essenes"[3]
Syria_Palaestina

As for any idea of an independent country of Judea, that seems to have only occurred during the Hasmonean period 110bce - 63bce, 47 years. During all other periods, Judea was either a province of empires, or client state.

Between c. 140 and c. 116 BCE, the dynasty ruled semi-autonomously from the Seleucids in the region of Judea. From 110 BCE, with the Seleucid empire disintegrating, the dynasty became fully independent, expanded in to the neighbouring regions of Galilee, Iturea, Perea, Idumea and Samaria, and took the title "basileus". Some modern scholars refer to this period as an independent kingdom of Israel.[2] In 63 BCE, the kingdom was conquered by the Roman Republic, broken up and set up as a Roman client state. The Kingdom had survived for 103 years before yielding to the Herodian Dynasty in 37 BCE.
en.wikipedia.org...

Even now, Israel seems to be a client state of American Empire. Without U.S. veto power in the U.N. the crimes against Geneva conventions, and U.N. charter regarding "not moving populations into militarily occupied territories " in the one case, and "no territory expansion by conquest" in the other, would be allowed to continue, or be recognized as in any way legitimate or within the bounds of normal civilized behaviour.

reply to post by dontreally

. . . Many are in fact Sephardic Jews . . .

Most of the Sephardic Jews in Israel are there as a result of being forced out of the countries where they had been happily living for thousands of years, because of the reaction by the people of those countries to the atrocities perpetrated against the Palestinians by the Israelis.

reply to post by jmdewey60

Most of the Sephardic Jews in Israel are there as a result of being forced out of the countries where they had been happily living for thousands of years, because of the reaction by the people of those countries to the atrocities perpetrated against the Palestinians by the Israelis.

Haha.. your obscenity knows no bounds! I see right through you're wily gnostic logic.

They win a defensive war begun by Arab armies. They lose. 800,000 Jews get kicked out and lose 50,000,000,000 dollar worth of assets (modern estimate). And still, somehow, you manage to put the blame on Israel!

How bout population exchange?? Do you think those Jews liked living as Dhimmis, subject to discriminatory laws and customs?

You are the most classless, tasteless and hateful poster. I even like corruptionexposed more than you.

It shouldn't take a rocket scientist to understand where jmd is coming from: he's a fanatical christian who can't countenance the presence of a Jewish state in the holy land, since the presence of such a state is a theological problem for die-hard Christians.

Simply check out his user-profile. This guy is a hardcore theologian.

As if his religious views aren't determining his political perspectives!

Here's how I see it jmd. Get over your metaphysical-theological nonsense which see's a Jewish state as an 'evil'. Jews are people too! They are not some metaphysical whip-boy you can just torture with injustice upon injustice~!

That is literally all that matters to you. The Jews to you are some poster-boy concept which you associate with 'the source of evil'. That's Bull#. That's dogmatic stupidity. That's actually the weltanschauung which led the Nazis to exterminate 6 million of them.

This ignorant and hateful rejection of the people you torment, sacrificing them to some perverted metaphysical concept, is one of the main evils of Christian doctrine. This is what should be rejected in Christianity, as In Judaism and Islam and any other religion that is willing to sacrifice people for some ideal!

reply to post by dontreally

. . . some perverted metaphysical concept . . .

Which is . . what, that there is a such thing as good and evil?
Killing people to steal their land is evil, and calling themselves by a name taken out of the Bible does not cover up their crimes.
My main concern is for the souls of Christians who get sucked into the doctrines of cults (which I think are actually funded by zionists) to support evil and then end up in hell.
I don't think a US colony in the Middle East has any theological relevancy other than it gives a really big opportunity for people to fall into a trap of sin while thinking they are doing a duty to God.

reply to post by jmdewey60

where they had been happily living for thousands of years

I want to address this, as it highlights how often you exaggerate, often in very course and dark ways.

Jews hardly lived "happily", anymore than you can say Palestinians live happily under the watchful eye of IDF occupation in the west bank.

Bernard Lewis says

Generally, the Jewish people were allowed to practice their religion and live according to the laws and scriptures of their community. Furthermore, the restrictions to which they were subject were social and symbolic rather than tangible and practical in character. That is to say, these regulations served to define the relationship between the two communities, and not to oppress the Jewish population

Link

And I'm sure you would agree with this highly optimistic assessment.

These 'restrictions' of a 'symbolic' but somehow "not tangible or practical" nature, to which the two communities were defined, apparently weren't "oppressive".

Ok, so the extra taxation of Jews, isn't discriminatory, or a tangible and practical and oppressive measure against the Jewish community?? This is how sick and politically warped some commentators on this subject can be.

They would blow out of proportion any extra taxes imposed by Israel on Arab citizens, and they would be vilified ad hoc for it. But when Muslims have from the beginning forced taxes on Jews above that of other citizens of the state, it's not oppressive, even though it is, and has a tangible and practical effect by reducing their quality of living. Hence, most Jews were extremely poor, as the late ghetto communities in Yemen, Egypt and Morocco show.

Jews were also not allowed to have any public demonstration of their religion. Is that "fair"? Can one REALLY be happy if he knows he knows he's a 2nd class citizen of the state, who isn't allowed to go into public areas and pronounce his belief in the words, "shema Yisrael..."?? These are all degrading measures. And that's the point. The positive turn people create on what Muslim governments subjected Dhimmis to - both Jews and Christians - is deplorable.

In some places, Jews were forced to wear yellow socks and other clownish colors, and even a little 'bell', like what a donkey would have around it's neck. Every time a Jew walked he had the pleasure of producing a little bell' ringing at his side, giving Muslims even greater pleasure at the hilarity of such a spectacle. In other places, they were forced to always walk by a Muslim on his left, to represent the Satan.

During the Golden age of Jewish culture in Spain, beginning in the 9th century, Islamic Spain was more tolerant towards Jews.[19] The 11th century, however, saw several Muslim pogroms against Jews; notably those that occurred in Cordoba in 1011 and in Granada in 1066.[20] In the 1066 Granada massacre, the first large pogrom on European soil, a Muslim mob crucified the Jewish vizier Joseph ibn Naghrela and massacred about 4,000 Jews[21] In 1033 about 6,000 Jews were killed in Fez, Morocco by Muslim mobs.[22][23] Mobs in Fez murdered thousands of Jews in 1276,[24] and again, leaving only 11 alive, in 1465

Link

Oh happy days! How nice it was to live under Muslims.

Yes, it was far worse under Christiandom; but it was worse in the sense of being the greater of two evils.

What was always constant was the life-sucking jizya tax which always lowered a Jews standard of living relative to his Muslim neighbors. They were also generally barred from positions of government, though, there were those very very few in number who managed to make a fortune in trade or banking, and so were associated with governments. But they were a miniscule minority. They were not indicative of the overall state of Sephardic Jewry. And even they paid a hefty jizya tax.

My point? It was never nice living in Muslim lands. Up until the modern era, just before 1948, Jews still paid the jizya. They were still highly discriminated against and subject to periodic libels, whether in the form of mass riots, as happened in Safed in 1834, hundreds were killed, many Jewish women were raped, and essentially every Jewish home was looted, or mass looting.

And I can mention many more of these incidents, JMD. It was NOT nice living under Muslims; it wasn't fair, it wasn't equal. It was precisely the opposite of what we extoll here in liberal democracies: complete equality and liberty between citizens.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Don't play dumb. You've read enough to know what I'm talking about.

Your 'jumping' between traditions, in your weird defense of Islamic radicalism, can only mean you see Christianity as a 'type' of religion which promotes a certain metaphysical perspective; and Sufism - which is only a part of Islam, and not indicative of the general perspective of mainstream Sunni Islam, you seem to like.

Killing people to steal their land is evil, and calling themselves by a name taken out of the Bible does not cover up their crimes.

Jews have always called themselves Israel. That's the name they've use for themseves since they were booted out of Judea by the Romans. So, it appears that word never became defunct. The Judeans were "Bnei Yisrael', because they were a tribe of the people of Israel. The "10 lost tribes" were dispersed by the Assyrians - the practice of removing a native population and bringing in citizens from other lands, which shows how detailed the Bible really is in recounting how empires used to function.

Who knows what happened to those people?? All's I know, is, once you forget who you are, who are you?? The 10 tribes don't exist and will never 'return', because they're Muslims most of them. The Pashtun of Afghanistan apparently believe themselves to be descended from the tribe of Ephraim.

My main concern is for the souls of Christians who get sucked into the doctrines of cults (which I think are actually funded by zionists) to support evil and then end up in hell.

Thanks for showing everyone how fundamentalist you are. Not only do you posit some 'zionist' conspiracy to mislead Christians, but you think that one mistake in life which they had no power over is gonna result in their going to hell.

I don't think a US colony in the Middle East

Israel and Zionism never had anything to do with becoming a 'us colony' in the middle east. It was established by Europeans, firstly. and secondly, it was designed to help Jews. These Jews just happened to be very educated in western intellectual traditions. So, Israel became a natural ally of America, as they shared the same culture, and established the same form of government (liberal democracy).

reply to post by dontreally

. . . but you think that one mistake in life which they had no power over is gonna result in their going to hell.

The topic of this thread is about crimes being committed right now, not "some time in the past".
If you lend support to criminals in their criminal undertakings, then you become an accomplice to that crime and are just as guilty as that person who is over there pulling the trigger to shoot another human being because of some weird idea of ethnic purity that went out of style in the Bronze age.

reply to post by jmdewey60

The topic of this thread is about crimes being committed right now, not "some time in the past".

And what are the crimes?? almost every single one of them is an exaggeration or embellishment. Israel puts up a wall to protect themselves from terrorist incursions into the country, and now they compare that to turning Gaza into a massive concentration camp. Everyday the IDF transports medical aid, foods, etc into Gaza by the truck loads, and yet people still say, Israel is shamelessly subjecting the Palestinians to oppressive measures. The measures are in place because if they weren't, there would be more terror attacks against Israelis! You flip around the cause and effect, and turn the effect - setting up fences and setting a blockade - into the cause for evil. As if the Israeli response wasn't a response to the injustice of Palestinians shooting rockets at their houses. Apparently, you'll allow Arabs to do anything against them.

And the secret reason is... because you're a christian fanatic.

reply to post by dontreally

And what are the crimes??

So this is how you deal with the whole thing . . to conclude that nothing bad is really going on over there?
Well there is, according to you, this bit about "terrorism", do you think that things like that exist in a moral vacuum?
Where one group is as pure as the driven snow, and the other is just inherently evil, deserving of extermination?

Originally posted by dontreally
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

The topic of this thread is about crimes being committed right now, not "some time in the past".

And what are the crimes?? almost every single one of them is an exaggeration or embellishment. Israel puts up a wall to protect themselves from terrorist incursions into the country, and now they compare that to turning Gaza into a massive concentration camp. Everyday the IDF transports medical aid, foods, etc into Gaza by the truck loads, and yet people still say, Israel is shamelessly subjecting the Palestinians to oppressive measures. The measures are in place because if they weren't, there would be more terror attacks against Israelis! You flip around the cause and effect, and turn the effect - setting up fences and setting a blockade - into the cause for evil. As if the Israeli response wasn't a response to the injustice of Palestinians shooting rockets at their houses. Apparently, you'll allow Arabs to do anything against them.

And the secret reason is... because you're a christian fanatic.

So the siege, the massacres, the bombings, the raids, are just the result of our biased minds? The Israeli response to Hamas shooting their rockets was a missile barrage which slaughtered thousands f innocent people. Including 1000 children whose crime was to be a Arab.
You have a terrible argument and you make it even worse by then assuming were all Christian fanatics. Great finish!
Next time try to use some more facts instead of claiming that everything we've seen on the news, on TV, on this site is just a result of our fanatical christian minds.

reply to post by dontreally

The inconsistency of your logic is astounding

Ummm... you were the one making claims about (sephardic) Jews being "indigenous" to that land in this post

And then you go on to say that they conquered the land from somebody else in this post

since my main argument is the religious and spiritual significance of this land to Jews,

You say that as if everybody in Israel are "religious and spiritual" types.
Around 30% of Israelis identify as atheist or secular. Look it up.
source

I'd be a whole lot more inclined to believe that the land has a "religious and spiritual significance" to the Jews if the state had been founded by "religious and spiritual" means... instead of irreligious politics and politicians.... that too at the cost of many lives.

And don't get me started on the gay pride parades in Israel and the open homosexual scene in Israel. Or is it allowed in Jewish religion and spirituality?

the Jews, at least the Sephardic Jews, should be entitled to national self determination, and no, they will not and should not be subjected to the embarrassment and dehumanization of Islamic Dhimmitude

The Sephardic Jews seemed to be fine living alongside muslims... as shown earlier in this thread. Unless there was a campaign for a seperate homeland which I am not aware of.

reply to post by dontreally

the Jews, at least the Sephardic Jews, should be entitled to national self determination, and no, they will not and should not be subjected to the embarrassment and dehumanization of Islamic Dhimmitude

As for the dhimmi bit, the Dhimmi laws obviously favor Muslims, but provide equality regarding property and contract and allow for the practice of the Jewish religion.

If you still think its "embarassing" and "dehumanizing", what about Jewish laws favoring the Jew over the Goyim.

www.jewishencyclopedia.com...

So now, do you think Jewish laws against the Goyim are better than Islamic laws towards Dhimmis?
Or is it just as "embarrassing and dehumanizing"?
Or is it worse?

If Jewish law does not provide equal treatment to non-Jews living among Jews, then Jews don't have any ground to demand the same from the Muslims Goyim.