Is it necessary to go through "Suffering School" to get us ready to live in Heaven?

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posted on Nov, 5 2012 @ 09:13 PM
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As an born-again, Holy-Spirit filled Evangelical, I believe that my sins-past, present and future, are under the blood of Christ. But I used to contemplate the holiness of God and realize that even on my best day, I was far from that standard. Even if I was forgiven, I still had fallen tendencies. How could I live in Heaven with God for all eternity unless my nature was changed? Of course, this is one of the reasons that Christians have to live in this world-to learn and grow to be citizens of Heaven. But what if your life is not enough time to prepare yourself? When you die, are you just automatically transformed into a perfect being? Do you still have free will? If so, could you not one day rebel? After all, Lucifer did. He was perfect and he knew the consequences, and yet he chose to sin. What's to keep us from sinning against God 100 billion years from now?

What if suffering can make us ready for Heaven?

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, [and] exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with Him, that we may be also glorified together.

Philippians 1:29 Because it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer on His behalf

2 Timothy 2:12 if we suffer, we shall also reign with Him.

I don't know that I could characterize my life as a Christian in America in the 21st Century as one of "suffering." So where could I go through "suffering school" and have all of these tendencies removed?

A Catholic friend and I were debating this, and he gave me a fact sheet about Purgatory. I do not have a citation, but the following is from that fact sheet, and are not my words:

"Matthew 18:23-35 The Kingdom of Heaven is likened to a man who had a great debt (sin) forgiven him by a King (Christ), who then went out and began to punish someone who owed him a small debt, refusing to forgive him. In verse 34, the King orders that the man be given to the torturers until the debt is paid. This is someone who has received salvation but did not love his fellow man. He must suffer until the debt is paid.

1 Corinthians 15:29-30 Baptism for the dead. Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead. If baptism is necessary for salvation, then these people who died without being baptized cannot go to Heaven right away. They must be somewhere else.

2nd Timothy 1:16-18 Oneisphorus is dead, but Paul asks for mercy for him on Judgment Day. If our fate is sealed at death and we go to either Heaven or Hell, there is no mercy possible or needed.

1 Corinthians 3:10-15 Our works are tested, and those who have not done good works are saved, but through fire. Also see James 5:3."

The word "purgatory" does not appear in Scripture, but neither do "rapture" or "Trinity." But the theological idea of purgatory could be implied by these verses.

Thoughts?




posted on Nov, 5 2012 @ 09:42 PM
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reply to post by Snsoc
 


Dear Snsoc,

You raise two questions, one about whether or not we become perfect by the time we get to heaven and two the idea of purgatory. I will attempt to answer with my understanding of both; however, in the end we are fate is not determined because we understand neither completely, that is not the unforgivable sin.



Of course, this is one of the reasons that Christians have to live in this world-to learn and grow to be citizens of Heaven. But what if your life is not enough time to prepare yourself? When you die, are you just automatically transformed into a perfect being? Do you still have free will? If so, could you not one day rebel? After all, Lucifer did. He was perfect and he knew the consequences, and yet he chose to sin. What's to keep us from sinning against God 100 billion years from now?


As for our lives, we have free will; but, if life were like Disneyland than we would never exert our free will and would therefore not define ourselves by our intent. Alister Crowley, the famous Satanist, said that the whole of the law of Satanism was to do whatever one chose. Basically he proposed that we do whatever made us feel good and not worry about others unless we wanted to. The apostle Paul on the other hand took the position that if you met all the laws, it did not count in your favor if your heart was not of love. This life is about being challenged and making your choices. It does not prepare you for heaven, heaven is the result of your choices and your heart.

We are absolutely NOT transformed into perfect beings, the bible again clearly states that there are NONE good; but, God. As for Satan, he was not perfect and it does not say that he was. It says that he was the most beautiful of the angels. Satan is not all powerful, he is not all knowing and he is not everywhere at once. A reading of the story of Job shows all of what I have just said. He was wrong about Job and he stated that he was walking back and forth across the earth looking at our sins to accuse us before God. Those who go to heaven and the ones who have been tested and once saved you cannot lose your salvation.

You also asked about purgatory. While I don't believe in purgatory there is clearly a point in time when we are in the in between state. Let us consider it the moment before death we seem to be in both places at once. Many who have experienced this are said to have had a near death experience. Often at that point there is a type of life review, a chance to see if there is something left for you to do; but, then they return here rather than sit in the in between state.

You asked as a Christian and I answered as a fellow Christian. I grew up Catholic and left the church many years ago to become an agnostic, instead after a decade of research, I became a non-denominational Christian. There are some good resources by Catholics of how they would defend their positions and are worthy of consideration. Peace.



posted on Nov, 5 2012 @ 09:54 PM
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hi op

I was with you till you mentioned Alistair Crowley

"While in America during the First World War, Crowley unflinchingly proposed "collecting a large number of photographs, full face and profile for each subject, and classifying them according to the horoscope." To other occultists, such a photo experiment would have been for "the educated astrologer to adopt scientific methods of study." But it would have also been a very good way for a schemer of in-the-flesh identity fraud to look for his double or look-alike:


The man was nothing short of a bastard
edit on 5-11-2012 by davesmart because: (no reason given)



Edit:
sorry im drunk didnt see crowley mentioned
must go to bed now before face palms become the norm
edit on 5-11-2012 by davesmart because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 5 2012 @ 10:01 PM
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reply to post by davesmart
 


Dear davesmart,

Actually, it was me and not the OP who mentioned Crowley. The point was to show the difference between what Crowley taught and what the bible says. That is why I contrasted his comments with those of the Apostle Paul. Crowley believed we should only worry about ourselves and Paul believed we were saved if we loved others.



posted on Nov, 5 2012 @ 10:05 PM
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Originally posted by AQuestion
reply to post by davesmart
 


Dear davesmart,

Actually, it was me and not the OP who mentioned Crowley. The point was to show the difference between what Crowley taught and what the bible says. That is why I contrasted his comments with those of the Apostle Paul. Crowley believed we should only worry about ourselves and Paul believed we were saved if we loved others.


hi sorry just seen now

as i said im a bit drunk
sorry m8

but b4 i go to bed here is an excellent history of crowley...
what am i saying lol?
if your aware of him then maybe you came across this

www.blackraiser.com...

it is an excellent read, true or false i dont know
edit on 5-11-2012 by davesmart because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 5 2012 @ 10:09 PM
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reply to post by davesmart
 


Dear davesmart,

No worries. I am familiar with Mr. Crowley and don't think very highly of him.



posted on Nov, 6 2012 @ 03:07 AM
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We are absolutely NOT transformed into perfect beings, the bible again clearly states that there are NONE good; but, God.


I think that's talking about humans. Angels would be perfect, wouldn't they? I'm talking about holiness, not omniscience or omnipotence.



As for Satan, he was not perfect and it does not say that he was.


Possibly. But what if Ezekiel 28 goes beyond talking about an earthly king and describes Lucifer before the fall, (in verse 13 it says he was in Eden, so that kind of limit the suspects list) verse 12 says he was stamped with the seal of perfection, verse 28 says he was blameless in conduct. Verse 14 says he was with the cherubim?



posted on Nov, 6 2012 @ 03:11 AM
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reply to post by AQuestion
 


I know what you mean. Crowley is the ultimate in self-will, self-pride, and self-centeredness. There are websites out there that compare quotes by him and Ayn Rand, and it's often difficult to tell which is which. Meanwhile, Christianity is about love, which is self-sacrifice and suffering.



posted on Nov, 6 2012 @ 03:21 AM
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Originally posted by Snsoc



We are absolutely NOT transformed into perfect beings, the bible again clearly states that there are NONE good; but, God.


I think that's talking about humans. Angels would be perfect, wouldn't they? I'm talking about holiness, not omniscience or omnipotence.



As for Satan, he was not perfect and it does not say that he was.


Possibly. But what if Ezekiel 28 goes beyond talking about an earthly king and describes Lucifer before the fall, (in verse 13 it says he was in Eden, so that kind of limit the suspects list) verse 12 says he was stamped with the seal of perfection, verse 28 says he was blameless in conduct. Verse 14 says he was with the cherubim?


Dear Snsoc,

I did not know you were a flat out liar. You claimed to be an Evangelical and show no evidence of such. After I answered you, you took a very long time, changed the questions and asked me new ones that evidence that you are not an Evangelical. You lied. Have a great night.



posted on Nov, 6 2012 @ 05:30 AM
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Originally posted by Snsoc
But what if your life is not enough time to prepare yourself?

Purgatory. Plain and simple.
A place of learning and growing before being 'perfect' and worthy of heaven.

What if suffering can make us ready for Heaven?

Kinda makes you wonder what is in heaven if we have to get used to suffering here.
Doesn't it??



posted on Nov, 6 2012 @ 07:35 AM
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After I answered you, you took a very long time,



Because I went to work.


changed the questions and asked me new ones


I asked further questions to clarify my first set of questions, strengthen my premise, and challenge your answer. This is not deception, it's dialogue.

I'm sorry that you feel deceived.



posted on Nov, 6 2012 @ 08:16 AM
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reply to post by Snsoc
 

The answer to the title question: Is it necessary to go through "Suffering School" to get us ready to live in Heaven?

YES.


But what if your life is not enough time to prepare yourself?

One lifetime is NOT enough, for ANYONE. That's why we come back repeatedly, through several lifetimes and a wide variety of circumstances before we ARE ready.


When you die, are you just automatically transformed into a perfect being?

You are headed towards it, and if you're not "transformed" when you die, you come back to learn some more.


Do you still have free will?

Yes, and you (your spirit/soul) takes time to reflect and to process the life just ended, and then confers with ethereal guides to determine your next "lessons", then you incarnate again in order to have those "lessons", but with no earthly memory of it. Nevertheless, you chose to be where you are, for very good reasons. To get you ready for reunion with the Divine.

If so, could you not one day rebel?

Yes, and it will just take you longer to be "prepared".

(This is the truth to the best of my knowledge.)



posted on Nov, 6 2012 @ 09:37 AM
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The suffering is felt by all that feel separate, separate from God (separate from all that is).
Humans believe they are separate from life - they believe they have a life and don't realize that life is just happening and that they are just happening.
The happening is just happening by the will of God. No one can change it, yet humans believe they are responsible for everything so try to do it right, they judge and condem themselves and all that is.

Humans feel separate and it hurts like Hell. Only when 'you' disolves into oneness will the kingdom be revealed.
edit on 6-11-2012 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 6 2012 @ 09:45 AM
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"Live in heaven" is a paradox; one can only be dead in heaven.



posted on Nov, 6 2012 @ 09:52 AM
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One has to die to enter the kingdom - disolve back into oneness. The false identity that lives in time believes it will die in the future.
Come to this moment and be presence and you will disappear - die now.
The presence is your absence.

The kingdom will be revealed when the attention is not absorbed into the me story.
edit on 6-11-2012 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 6 2012 @ 09:53 AM
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Yes, we have one life to get ourselves reconciled to God (with respect to my friends who support reincarnation, I've never been able to get beyond the fact that, without accumulated memory, there is no means by which to improve from life to life, and if that was the case, the world would become more "good" over the generations, as opposed to the degeneracy that we seem to see.)

Purgatory is the (mostly) Catholic notion that, no matter how good we become, we're still mere human beings, after all, and since nothing unholy can enter into heaven, we need a bit of "washing up" before we are allowed in there. So it's a place where we are cleansed from the final remnants of sin and become pure holy beings.

You CANNOT be saved in Purgatory -- if you have rejected Christ prior to death or died in a state of mortal sin, barring the mercy of God, you don't go to Purgatory, you are condemned. This is a significant misunderstanding on the part of non-Catholics, leading to beliefs that Catholics believe that one can "buy their way into Heaven through Indulgences," which is not the case.

As I noted, this is mostly a Catholic belief, but some Protestants are onboard with it -- I was when I was a Protestant, because, to me, it made logical sense, and it answered a question that sort of defies an answer without it, "what happens to people who live a Christian life, but couldn't accept Christ directly for some reason?"

Track down a copy of The Great Divorce by C.S. Lewis (another Protestant) who writes a fanciful novel that is rooted in the notion of Purgatory and answers another tough question -- "Why would someone reject God, even if they had concrete evidence of his existence?"



posted on Nov, 6 2012 @ 04:14 PM
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The bible clearly teaches that when one dies one goes into a supended state a soul and spirit sleep. Your body is gone you sould (who you are) and your spirit (the spark of life) is sleeping waiting for the day of judgement. On that day either you will rise spirit and soul and be transformed. After one thousand years all unbeleivers will be raised and judged upon what they did in life.



posted on Nov, 6 2012 @ 06:43 PM
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Kinda makes you wonder what is in heaven if we have to get used to suffering here.
Doesn't it??


I don't know if we so much have to "get used" to suffering as need to endure it, like spiritual exercise for a flabby soul. You've heard the phrase in the gym-"pain is weakness leaving the body?" I think suffering is attachment to the flesh leaving the body. "He that has suffered in his body is done with sin." (1 Peter 4:1)



posted on Nov, 6 2012 @ 08:51 PM
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reply to post by Snsoc
 


Dear Snsoc,

My mistake and my apologies. I am always suspicious in the Faith threads.



posted on Nov, 6 2012 @ 11:53 PM
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Originally posted by AQuestion
reply to post by Snsoc
 


Dear Snsoc,

My mistake and my apologies. I am always suspicious in the Faith threads.


No problem, brother.





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