A voice from above?

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posted on Nov, 4 2012 @ 11:15 PM
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reply to post by EnochWasRight
 



I and the father are one. Did you catch that? Yet, the Father is greater than Jesus. Did you also catch that? No paradox here.


I disagree my friend...

That is a direct contradiction... and HE never once considers himself "equal" to God.

That line of thinking came from Paul first... Or perhaps john depending on which book you believe was written first

edit on 4-11-2012 by Akragon because: (no reason given)




posted on Nov, 4 2012 @ 11:34 PM
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reply to post by Klassified
 



I might be inclined to agree with you, but Christians see I AM in that verse as an acknowledgement of his deity.


This is one of the reasons i make these threads... To find out why...

Yet many take them as offensive, but I AM only curious


Notice Exodus 3...

2 And the ANGEL of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

Yet further down in that chapter this angel suddenly became "God"...

Further more Jesus confirms that no man has ever seen God... meaning Moses didn't.

In my humble opinion the use of I AM is given far too much credence... and is not a confirmation of him being God... only that he existed before his incarnation as Jesus... but i believe we all have existed before this time... and before this earth...




posted on Nov, 4 2012 @ 11:35 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 


If Jesus was god, then when he called out, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?" Shouldn't he have said, "Me, me, why hast Thou forsaken Myself?"



posted on Nov, 4 2012 @ 11:38 PM
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Originally posted by jiggerj
reply to post by Akragon
 


If Jesus was god, then when he called out, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?" Shouldn't he have said, "Me, me, why hast Thou forsaken Myself?"


Good question...

Heres more to think about... IF he was God... why would he question why "his God" had forsaken him?

IF he were God wouldn't he know the answer already?

This is a stunning example of Jesus being Human, and losing all hope in my opinion




posted on Nov, 5 2012 @ 02:20 AM
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Originally posted by Akragon
Now that is the kind of answer i was looking for... i expected the trinity answer...

Exactly- the Christian understanding has always been that God the Father was addressing the Son.
It has never been part of the Christian teaching that God in his entirety was walking on the earth.

But if you knew in advance that the Christian Faith had a straightforward answer to this silly quibble, why did you ask the question?



posted on Nov, 5 2012 @ 02:37 AM
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Originally posted by Akragon
This is a stunning example of Jesus being Human, and losing all hope in my opinion

Again, it has always been part of the Chrsitian teaching that Jesus is fully human, with a human mind.
In the wording of the Athanasian Creed, Christ is "perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul [that's the "human mind"] and human flesh subsisting".
If the Christian teaching is that Christ is both God and man, drawing attention to the human part of that combination gets you nowhere.

edit on 5-11-2012 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 5 2012 @ 02:54 AM
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reply to post by DISRAELI
 



But if you knew in advance that the Christian Faith had a straightforward answer to this silly quibble, why did you ask the question?


To get some answers of course... Why else do people ask questions?


If the Christian teaching is that Christ is both God and man, drawing attention to the human part of that combination gets you nowhere.


huh?

Im not trying to get anywhere...






posted on Nov, 5 2012 @ 06:35 AM
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Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by EnochWasRight
 



I and the father are one. Did you catch that? Yet, the Father is greater than Jesus. Did you also catch that? No paradox here.


I disagree my friend...

That is a direct contradiction... and HE never once considers himself "equal" to God.

That line of thinking came from Paul first... Or perhaps john depending on which book you believe was written first

edit on 4-11-2012 by Akragon because: (no reason given)


Jesus was the image of God in the material. An image cannot tell the story of the one casting the image. This was the point. to say, "I and the Father are one" captures the OT prophecies that I also outlined. Jesus is the first born image of the Father. In totality, the Father cannot be captured as an image in the material. This was demonstrated in Deuteronomy 4. I am correct and so was Paul.



posted on Nov, 5 2012 @ 08:22 AM
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Originally posted by jiggerj
reply to post by Akragon
 


If Jesus was god, then when he called out, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?" Shouldn't he have said, "Me, me, why hast Thou forsaken Myself?"


Jesus is quoting David's words in Psalm 22:1 there, he's not speaking directly.


My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish? (Psalm 22:1 NIV)



posted on Nov, 5 2012 @ 09:27 AM
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reply to post by adjensen
 




Jesus is quoting David's words in Psalm 22:1 there, he's not speaking directly.

In your opinion, why did Jesus quote David's Psalm at that particular moment in time?

I ask this because some believe he referenced this particular Psalm as prophecy now fulfilled. In other words, he quoted it for our benefit, not his own. Do you agree with this, or do you have a different perspective?



posted on Nov, 5 2012 @ 10:01 AM
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Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by DISRAELI
 



But if you knew in advance that the Christian Faith had a straightforward answer to this silly quibble, why did you ask the question?


To get some answers of course... Why else do people ask questions?


If the Christian teaching is that Christ is both God and man, drawing attention to the human part of that combination gets you nowhere.


huh?

Im not trying to get anywhere...





Now what does a person who seemingly already knows everything need with answers from people he would automatically disagree with anyway? Ah the counterproductivity of that, truly amazing.

Or, you could be out for the:




posted on Nov, 5 2012 @ 10:16 AM
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Originally posted by Klassified
reply to post by adjensen
 




Jesus is quoting David's words in Psalm 22:1 there, he's not speaking directly.

In your opinion, why did Jesus quote David's Psalm at that particular moment in time?

I ask this because some believe he referenced this particular Psalm as prophecy now fulfilled. In other words, he quoted it for our benefit, not his own. Do you agree with this, or do you have a different perspective?


I'm not sure that I'd say Jesus ever said anything that wasn't for our benefit in some fashion


The fact that it's a quote from that Psalm should automatically send one back to that place to see what its relevance is. I think that if you read what it says, and understand the circumstances of David's writing it, the answer should be pretty clear. Psalm 22



posted on Nov, 5 2012 @ 12:08 PM
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reply to post by DISRAELI


If the Christian teaching is that Christ is both God and man, drawing attention to the human part of that combination gets you nowhere.

But yet, Christianity has focused on the human. Jesus once asked ""What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?" "The son of David," they replied. Matthew 22:42.

How many Christians would walk away from Jesus, if they suspected he was not "the son of David"? If any man, just a common bloke, as far as parentage went, heard a voice from heaven "You are my son" would people think he was special enough to think he might just be the Christ?

Was that David's voice speaking from heaven then? Or was it the voice who originally said such a thing to David? Psalm 2:7. If the OldTestament god could take David, of a non royal family and appoint him king and son, couldn't he do the same for another non-royal? After all, hadn't Saul of Benjamin been the LORD's anointed before David of Judah?

So, to answer the OPs question: It must have been David's voice. Otherwise Christianity and/or Messianic Judaism in general might not have caught on as the religion destined to militarily conquer the World (Psalm 110).
edit on 5-11-2012 by pthena because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 5 2012 @ 01:10 PM
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Originally posted by pthena
Was that David's voice speaking from heaven then? Or was it the voice who originally said such a thing to David? Psalm 2:7. If the OldTestament god could take David, of a non royal family and appoint him king and son, couldn't he do the same for another non-royal?...

So, to answer the OPs question: It must have been David's voice.

It would be more consistent to assume that the same speaker (ie the Lord God) was making this declaration on both occasions.
Your rhetorical questions actually point to the same answer, rather than the conclusion you've actually adopted.

The question in the OP arose because of the assumption that Akragon pretended to make about Christian beliefs, that God must be absent from heaven as long as he was on earth in the form of Jesus..
If that assumption is combined with your answer, the result is that David is telling God that God is David's son.
The traditional Christian belief (the Father was addressing the Son) is actually simpler and more straightforward.



posted on Nov, 5 2012 @ 01:29 PM
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reply to post by EnochWasRight
 



Jesus was the image of God in the material. An image cannot tell the story of the one casting the image.


It seems to me, he told the story of the one "casting the image" and unfortunatly it doesn't line up with the God of the OT...

Yes there are certian things that line up... but don't christians also believe that Satan also reads and knows the bible even better then we do?

I would be more inclined to believe he inspired the OT... Not the true God Our Father



reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 



Now what does a person who seemingly already knows everything need with answers from people he would automatically disagree with anyway? Ah the counterproductivity of that, truly amazing.


I don't find it counter productive in the least... Look at the discussion brewing as we speak...

Do you believe it matters in the least that i disagree with Christian theology?

I find it rather amusing that i can't ask a simple question about Christian beliefs without having several Christians jumping all over me and accusing me of something sinister...

Just because my answers are not the same as yours might be... doesn't mean im looking for converts...

And if my threads sway peoples beliefs then it was meant to be either way... True Faith can not be swayed, and if it can.... then it can hardly be a solid foundation

My beliefs are never swayed... they are rock solid.

Unfortunatly i can't say the same about Christian theology... which is why i ask questions... As i've said, im curious as to why Christian beliefs are soooo far from my own when both Christians and myself believe in Jesus

reply to post by DISRAELI
 



The question in the OP arose because of the assumption that Akragon pretended to make about Christian beliefs, that God must be absent from heaven as long as he was on earth in the form of Jesus..


You completely missed the point...

I didn't assume God was Absent from Heaven when Jesus was on earth... How could that be possible if he spoke from "above"...

I draw attention to the seperation between him and his Father.... They are one... YET seperate entities...

Jesus did NOT say "I and my Father are one and the same"

And that is a Christian belief... correct?

edit on 5-11-2012 by Akragon because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 5 2012 @ 01:40 PM
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reply to post by adjensen
 

Clear enough to me.

I was just curious of your take on it. Thanks for the reply.



posted on Nov, 5 2012 @ 01:55 PM
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reply to post by DISRAELI


If that assumption is combined with your answer, the result is that David is telling God that God is David's son.
The traditional Christian belief (the Father was addressing the Son) is actually simpler and more straightforward.

I left the rhetorical questions as rhetorical questions. I assume only that traditional Christianity has taken the position that Old Testament god is the 1st person of the Trinity. I'm not mistaken in that assumption.

I further assume that traditional Christianity believes that the OT god ( 1st Person of Trinity ) intends to keep certain promises made to King David regarding his eternal throne holding position.

I conclude that Christians would have no part in any Christ who was not believed to be of the line of David. If a man appeared who was not of the royal line, Christians would have invented a connection to David. See Matthew's genealogy. as evidence of fabrication.

I may just be the only crypto Neo-Marcionite in the World today, but I believe that the Son of God does not need the bloodline of David whatsoever in order to be the Son of God. I believe that a Christianity that needs the Old Testament as its prop will never be able to avoid being Zionist ( one world government by Davidic despot ruling from Zion on behalf of a self proclaimed Monodeity). Please review Psalm 110. May God preserve us from that!

My guess, and it's only a guess, is that the voice from heaven was actually the beginning of the "temptation of Jesus".
edit on 5-11-2012 by pthena because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 5 2012 @ 02:07 PM
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Originally posted by Akragon
You completely missed the point...

I didn't assume God was Absent from Heaven when Jesus was on earth... How could that be possible if he spoke from "above"...

You assumed, or disingenuously pretended to assume, that Christian belief led to that conclusion. The evidence is in the attached quote from the OP;

Originally posted by Akragon
IF Jesus was God in the flesh.... And God was apparently here on earth as the christian Faith dictates....
Who was this voice from above that was documented in all these cases?

That question only arises on the premise "If God is on earth, he cannot be in heaven.".
So in asking that question, you were necessarily making that assumption
As you know.



I draw attention to the seperation between him and his Father.... They are one... YET seperate entities...And that is a Christian belief... correct?

Yes, it is a Christian belief that Father and Son are in union in one sense, and yet separate entities in a different sense.
And you go through all this rigmarole just to announce your agreement with Christian belief on that point?

edit on 5-11-2012 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 5 2012 @ 02:44 PM
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Originally posted by Johnny76

Originally posted by arpgme
Most Christians believe that there are three parts of God Jesus, Father, and (holy) Spirit. So maybe it was the Father aspect that as the voice and The Dove as Holy Spirit.


Hello


It is the Catholic "Holy Trinity" that has the three entities that are as one. In Christianity Jesus and his dad Jehovah are the only two.


Not just Catholics believe in the Holy Trinity. Most born again Christians believe in the trinity. At least those who believe the Bible. That is why we are baptized "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost."

There are a few cult-like sects that do not believe in the Holy Trinity. Apparently they do not believe the Bible is the Word of God. Either that or they are calling God a liar.



posted on Nov, 5 2012 @ 02:51 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 



Check out a documentary called…

A History of Christianity – Episode 1… “The First Christianity”

It gives a pretty good account of Nicene Creed; and how the Trinity was challenged sometime after Constantine’s death. And it describes how it later re-emerged, with a few additional changes, to it’s definition.

And when you’re through with that…there’s this…



The video quality is bad, but they do cover most of the important key points, regarding the ongoing “Trinity debate.”


For the record I’m non-Trinitarian.

It seems to me that the biggest objection to the Trinity is that there is no verse in the Bible, which specifically states, that both God/Father and Jesus are both one Being…and a lot depends on how you define "A Being…"

Of course we know Jesus says that He and the Father are One… but does He mean one Being, One in Spirit, or one in Purpose and Character…or all three?

The debate of course, has been going on for centuries and not even the Non-Trinitarian Churches!, can agree on the exact definition, of The Father, Son and Holy Spirit


- JC
edit on 5-11-2012 by Joecroft because: (no reason given)





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