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Brace Yourselves! Americans Aged 18-29 Have A More Favorable Response To Socialism Than To Capitali

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posted on Nov, 5 2012 @ 10:11 AM
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Originally posted by Bluesma
reply to post by flexy123
 


Absolutely, you said it very well. It is very very hard for Americans to even grasp this concept and stop makign a distinction between "the people" and "the government".

Which is very surprising, considering the wording of the American constitution...! Somewhere, the idea got lost.

But as an american that moved to Europe, I know I had trouble digesting this myself, I had never been exposed to that concept before then.


Wow, your two posts, (this one and the one above) were very well stated. For the youth that want to be more active in governance and political matters, they need to be more active. I understood what you were trying to say. They want to help and serve...as the old saying goes "there is no higher honor than service to humanity". But when you point that out, someone wants to call you a name..."you socialist"...

What is remarkably funny in threads like this, are the people defending the status quo. You go to any multitudes of other thread topics and they will be bashing this Government for corruption, cover ups and conspiracies. They will tell you how crooked it is, how the Fed is a demonic monster and how we are all screwed. However...don't you dare attack their love affair...capitalism. Many-many people attach the method to the only possibility they will ever have to be wealthy and they will defend it to the death. Even when a snowball has a better chance in hell, some folks still fall for the programming that "one day you can be rich like me so shut up and put up".

I AM for free markets, but what we are experiencing now is "NOT" free markets. This is crony capitalism with a splash of Oligarchy and Fascism blended in. Do we need to trash everything to get back on the right track of a fair and mutually beneficial system of Governance and economy? It kinda looks that way at times. Some folks do not understand that a system of economy DOES NOT have to be attached to a political ideal and in all honesty, they prob shouldn't be...but they are.

Good luck to those that like the ideals of socialism. I am not one of them but hey...what do I know? I offer you some examples for your future study and use as an example. Read nto the "Nordic Example"....arguably, the four most successful socialist countries in Europe. Finland, Denmark, Sweden and Norway. They have a higher percentile of millionaires and billionaires per capita than the USA and just about everyone else as well.

I am going to keep hoping we can work to fix the busted system we have now and turn it into what it needs to be, a free society...where social and economic status are truly free and there is no "gatekeeper" saying who gets to go where.
edit on 11/5/2012 by Jeremiah65 because: (no reason given)

edit on 11/5/2012 by Jeremiah65 because: (no reason given)




posted on Nov, 5 2012 @ 10:13 AM
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The reason younger people are left-wing and older people right-wing is because it takes a long, long time to see through the BS.



posted on Nov, 5 2012 @ 10:13 AM
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Capitalism is fantastic
Corporate capitalism..meh..in small doses is alright
Monopolistic Corporate fascism (Corporatism) is a world eater.

All societys, in order to function, requires some socialism..the level of socialism is (or should) also reflect the countrys wealth and standing..it isn't at the moment, but should. Got a super rich nation? install a universal healthcare system. some basic foundations for all so there is a ladder people can climb up, and a net that catches people before they fall down into insurmountable pits...and remove the iron grip from the corporate trade bandits.

This is not some radical thinking..this is a sensible adult way of looking at society.

The bigger issue is how big adults don't know the difference between socialism and communism. like not knowing the difference between astronomy and astrology. Read something already.



posted on Nov, 5 2012 @ 10:15 AM
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reply to post by Skyfloating
 

That description, the "village" analogy is perfect. That is, to my best understanding, the purest form of Socialism.

Thanks.



posted on Nov, 5 2012 @ 10:16 AM
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Originally posted by Skyfloating
The reason younger people are left-wing and older people right-wing is because it takes a long, long time to see through the BS.


Or, as one gets older, the brain starts to deteriorate and you tend to go for easy answers in a complex world...and as you get older, the brain starts to deteriorate..and..wait, what was I saying?

Get off my lawn!
-shakes cane-



posted on Nov, 5 2012 @ 10:16 AM
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reply to post by SaturnFX
 


Exactly. You sir get a star and my respect.

This is so damn true. I wish more people saw this for what it was. Again, very well put.



posted on Nov, 5 2012 @ 10:19 AM
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I think one of the main problems of the US is economic inequality. Meritocracy is fine but it should serve the society not the other way round.
If you have a true capitalist meritocracy it is very harsh and ends up just being survival of the fittest, I don't think that is how people want to live.
Australia has a decent minimum wage set according to inflation and we don't have a huge underclass of poverty like in the US, I believe the US could benefit from some of these policies but if you suggest anything like trying to address economic inequality the US right will probably brand you a socialist or communist, which is not the case.



posted on Nov, 5 2012 @ 10:19 AM
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I can only go with what I know based on life experiences, but in our current system (as broken as it may be), I know people whom I went to high school with who are now millionaires due to their hard work and innovation.
I'm not doing too shabbily myself, not rich but definately not wanting for anything.

Socialism always seems rather fantastic, but history doesn't look too kindly on it. The younger generations will want socialism because they have been taught that life should be fair... unfortunately for everyone, life is never, and will never, be fair. Someone will always break the rules and get away with it. Someone will always take advantage of the kindness/naivety of others. That's how life works.



posted on Nov, 5 2012 @ 10:20 AM
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Originally posted by wildtimes

That description, the "village" analogy is perfect. That is, to my best understanding, the purest form of Socialism.

Thanks.



Alright then. But I think some socialists in this thread would disagree with that definition.

Wishing you a good time socializing on ATS.



posted on Nov, 5 2012 @ 10:21 AM
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Originally posted by JimTSpock
I think one of the main problems of the US is economic inequality. Meritocracy is fine but it should serve the society not the other way round.
If you have a true capitalist meritocracy it is very harsh and ends up just being survival of the fittest, I don't think that is how people want to live.


The problem with this whole strange "meritocracy" thing is simple.
1) This is not a brand spanking new economy
2) We are not immortal.

This game was played long ago (the hammer game as in the example). generations ago. Now, its the familys that have hammers, and the familys that have no hammers...and the familys that have the hammers (familys being investment groups) use said hammers to smack the fingers of the have nots to make sure there is no hammers for the rest.

The hammers were consolidated long ago and are behind vaults.



posted on Nov, 5 2012 @ 10:27 AM
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Originally posted by BobbyTarass

As I said previously, those youngsters don't see socialism the same way most of the people who went through the cold war in the USA see it, nowadays when they talk about socialism it's mostly about social-liberalism/modern-liberalism (en.wikipedia.org...) or a mixed economy (en.wikipedia.org...) those two systems are applied all around Europe with more or less success (as every country is different it's quite hard to keep track of the trends but as always, the northern part of Europe is seen as a good exemple).



I agree thats what they MEAN when they think "socialism" and that right-wingers MEAN something entirely different when they say socialism. This difference in perception/definition makes these kind of conversations hectic, chaotic and ridiculous. It would be better for posters to first define what kind of vision for the world they see when they use those terms.

The imagined VISION of the world or feared DYSTOPIA of the world is what leads us to advocating or attacking "socialism" and "capitalism"..



posted on Nov, 5 2012 @ 10:29 AM
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reply to post by SaturnFX
 


I'd personally say neither one is feasible in the long term as we live on a finite planet with limited resources. As such neither can truly work. All the ism's of man fall in the face of reality.



posted on Nov, 5 2012 @ 10:36 AM
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Just wanted to briefly clarify something. I DO believe in free market economies and the opportunity they can offer...however, they can be a double edged weapon.

Let's say that I make wooden spoons. It takes me a half an hour to make one and, to live in the society I live in, I must charge $10.00 for that spoon. Now a guy in China, he makes spoons too. His spoons aren't quite as nice as mine or won't last as long, but he only charges a dollar. A guy across town from me starts buying the Chinese guys spoons and imports them to sell for $5.00 dollars. He has effectively pushed me out of the market and killed my method of income, paid the Chinese guy what he is asking and he himself has scored a 400% profit per spoon. This is the double edged weapon that "true free markets" can bring.

If you recall during the Middle ages, it was people who had the money to own ships or caravans and travel the world to import spices and textiles that were the richest and became the most powerful people on earth. Those people never died out and they never wanted to let go of their exclusivity...they just allowed the working class to think they were getting somewhere before the dropped a "hammer" on their heads and hands.
edit on 11/5/2012 by Jeremiah65 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 5 2012 @ 10:38 AM
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reply to post by Dreine
 


this is my take on it as well. You can´t plan for perfection. You have to just adapt. Not plan so much as be prepared.

I am within the age group this thread refers to. I am currently living in a socialism. I have lived my entire life in a capitalism. Neither are what they claim to be.

I still prefer the capitalist model, because from what I have experienced and seen, you have more chances of getting security rather than waiting for it to be trickled down on you, (pissed on you).... MY analogy,

I don't know. I think you really do need a little of both. The thing is we always end up with something that has nothing to do with what we are supposedly living under.

I agree though. Capitalism is great. Socialism seems nice, but never lives up to its promises, and when it does you can be certain it had to screw someone over to get there. Whether it borrows money from the future and screws kids when they grow up, a whole people for the sake of cheap labor as immigration or a colony for slave labor, or what have you. It is really expensive and unfair ultimately in its aquisition of the necesary means for that life style. Capitalism does the same arguably, but really neither are true capitalism or socialism.

Fair doesn't exist naturally though. You got that right.


edit on 5-11-2012 by manykapao because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 5 2012 @ 10:45 AM
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Originally posted by antonia
reply to post by SaturnFX
 


I'd personally say neither one is feasible in the long term as we live on a finite planet with limited resources. As such neither can truly work. All the ism's of man fall in the face of reality.


Works for now..sort of.
We are meant to evolve out of the current structure though...trying various things, keeping what works, dropping what doesn't, and over time create a more perfect structure..continously evolving.

Personally I favor a technocracy...but we aren't capable of such a structure yet...so socio-capitalism is a proven engine of progress for now...best we got (not saying the best..just..best of a bad lot)

___
Add: Your finite planet comment btw is exactly what motivates me. Whatever progresses society to get off this one single planet and get to colonization and exploitation of our neighboring planets and beyond is where my sights are set...not only for plentiful resources, but so we don't have all our eggs in one proverbial basket. You said what all societies on earth should be understanding at this point..time to look up and out (or very very deep in.)
edit on 5-11-2012 by SaturnFX because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 5 2012 @ 10:49 AM
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Originally posted by SaturnFX

Works for now..sort of.
We are meant to evolve out of the current structure though...trying various things, keeping what works, dropping what doesn't, and over time create a more perfect structure..continously evolving.

Personally I favor a technocracy...but we aren't capable of such a structure yet...so socio-capitalism is a proven engine of progress for now...best we got (not saying the best..just..best of a bad lot)


Well, I guess one of my major faults is that I don't tend to think in the short term most of the time so I tend to come off as Utopian when I don't really intend it. I do tend to think technocracy will evolve naturally as science progresses if we get to that point. In the short term the real danger is we may have trashed the planet so badly we may not get to see what the long term solution is.



posted on Nov, 5 2012 @ 10:51 AM
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reply to post by Skyfloating
 





I agree thats what they MEAN when they think "socialism" and that right-wingers MEAN something entirely different when they say socialism. This difference in perception/definition makes these kind of conversations hectic, chaotic and ridiculous. It would be better for posters to first define what kind of vision for the world they see when they use those terms.


You are absolutely correct. I always try and avoid these arguments because of this. I was looking over the thread and your post made me realize something.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ANTONIA. I am sorry. My bad. I just hate doing the whole song and dance of I mean this, and you said that. I have spent too many hours arguing over this stuff and when it seems like I will spend another second in similar arguments I go crazy.

I don't want to get into it again, but I am sorry If I came across as rude. It is the way I am, can't help it. When I see confrontation, I get crazy.

so have a good one huh. No hard feelings.



posted on Nov, 5 2012 @ 10:54 AM
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Originally posted by antonia

Originally posted by SaturnFX

Works for now..sort of.
We are meant to evolve out of the current structure though...trying various things, keeping what works, dropping what doesn't, and over time create a more perfect structure..continously evolving.

Personally I favor a technocracy...but we aren't capable of such a structure yet...so socio-capitalism is a proven engine of progress for now...best we got (not saying the best..just..best of a bad lot)


Well, I guess one of my major faults is that I don't tend to think in the short term most of the time so I tend to come off as Utopian when I don't really intend it. I do tend to think technocracy will evolve naturally as science progresses if we get to that point. In the short term the real danger is we may have trashed the planet so badly we may not get to see what the long term solution is.


Oh, same here..added a bit to that post I made right after I hit reply..
I just try to temper my long sight with practical steps.
All journeys are steps, one in front of the other, until your at your destination...gotta look at where the next foot will fall if your wanting to move towards the goal..else, your just standing in place and dreaming.



posted on Nov, 5 2012 @ 11:04 AM
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reply to post by ModernAcademia
 


Good! Americans need to stop fearing Socilaism and realise, there are some benefits to it, it isn't all great, mind, but this rabid fear you have of it is basically daft. It proves you don't, for the most part understand what it is, and compare it to the Failures of The Soviet Union, which was State Capitalist, so is China, so is N.Korea. Cuba didn't get it right either as Socialism was never meant to be about One Party Rule and denying freedom, it was meant to be about equality. Within in us as humans, we have greed, and once we've have a taste for the good life, we like to keep hold of it, Capitalism can bring that ugliness out in us all, but it also has it's good points, combining those good points with the good points of Socialism, could be a good thing. The porblem is politically polarised people are unwilling to accept the opposition may have some good ideas. The terrible crony capitalism that exists today only benefits the few, and I can't understand how people can support such a system when they themselves aren't the one who benefit from it. The USA itself is not a Democracy the same as the UK isn't, we are given the Illusion of choice when in reality, those two parties that have your country so polarised politically, are basically the same, so The USA is a one party state disguised as a democracy.



posted on Nov, 5 2012 @ 11:38 AM
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Originally posted by Shminkee Pinkee
reply to post by ModernAcademia
 

The USA itself is not a Democracy the same as the UK isn't, we are given the Illusion of choice when in reality, those two parties that have your country so polarised politically, are basically the same, so The USA is a one party state disguised as a democracy.


So the US Democrats and Republicans have the same policies because they are the same party? That is not the case. Go and live in a real one party state and see if it's the same.




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